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Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2789351
12/09/18 12:19 PM
12/09/18 12:19 PM
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karvala Offline
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Concert Grand loudness; yes, I don't disagree. Most people have their digitals too quiet and too amenable to bashing without the unpleasant consequences you get on an acoustic (even an upright, but especially a concert grand). Any 9'+ grand is very loud, much more than people think. The issue here, though, is timbre rather than amplitude. In normal playing, you get an amplitude which is generally greater than people think, but you don't get that harsh percussive ultra-bright sound; that occurs only when you hit the thing pretty hard and it's actually quite difficult to achieve in normal playing, for me at least. By contrast, on this particular VST - and only this VST - it seems to be the default at even moderately velocity values, and that's definitely not realistic to me. I generally don't need to adjust the velocity curve or midi sensitivity at all with most instruments; I had to make a small adjustment on the VSL CFX, but this one requires a huge adjustment to achieve the same timbre mapping, with the same keyboard and the same player. That suggests a calibration problem in the production to me.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
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Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2789360
12/09/18 12:53 PM
12/09/18 12:53 PM
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@karvala
Check out the "piano robot interview" on the videos page
https://www.vsl.co.at/Synchron_Package/Steinway_D#!Videos

Looks like they used a different manner of key input. For the CFX, didn't they use the Disklavier system that plays back the keys by itself? Seems like here they used a new robot for the Steinway. Perhaps that's why the mapping is different.

With that said, as long as you can make an adjustment to the sensitivity (or to the non existent velocity curve! lol) and as long as that fixes it, I wouldn't think that this is much of a problem.

Last edited by Grazilerimba; 12/09/18 12:54 PM.
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: Grazilerimba] #2789365
12/09/18 01:01 PM
12/09/18 01:01 PM
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Erard Offline
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Originally Posted by karvala
I have some reservations in certain areas still (the sound stage is notably different from the CFX, and perhaps not for the better, but it might be possible to alleviate that by playing around with the mics further)

I forgot one point: did you turn on the delay on the High-Sur mic (at 27 ms)? I find it makes the stage more realistic - at least on headphones.

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
Erard àre you using the Standard or Full Version?

Full version.


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2789379
12/09/18 01:33 PM
12/09/18 01:33 PM
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karvala Offline
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Yes, I particularly amused by the proud boast that they could get "maximum force". That's certainly true, but I'm not sure it's a good thing! I'm sure you're right, though, that would explain the calibration difference, although you'd think someone would have noticed before releasing it.

Adjustments are easy enough (the lack of velocity curve is a minor irritation, but I use free Savihost which has a velocity curve editor builtin anyway so it's not a big deal for me), but the price you pay is slightly reduced velocity sensitivity, another parameter that needs to be tuned, and more worryingly for me, a sense that this is contributing to the lack of close feel.

That latter point is probably my biggest problem with this instrument as it stands, and a number of the other problems feed into that I think. With the CFX, you could choose to use an ambient sound, as though you were in a concert hall, but with use of the close and mid mics, you could get a convincing sense of actually playing the instrument in front of you. That illusion needs the right soundstage, an essentially neutral mic timbre and the right timbre-amplitude mapping. With the Steinway, it doesn't seem to work. The loss of the old Close mic 1, and replacement with a condenser mic is a little unfortunate, as that really doesn't give a neutral sound. The tube mic, while warm and pleasant, is better but still sounds more like a recording than a live piano. The ribbon, which was Close mic 2 on the CFX, remains in the same location but also sounds more distant on the Steinway, and in any case is the most distant of the three Close mics. That means that you essentially don't have a neutral mic over the strings, and that's a major blow to the sense of feeling like you're playing a piano. The position of the piano in the room has also changed, which completely changes the sound of decca tree and surround mics as well. The surround mics still give a beautiful shimmer, but both they and the decca tree now capture even more of the hall, and sound even more ambient than they did. The decca tree also sounds noticeably more strident. The end result is that I think this could work well as an ambient piano sound with the right settings, but I'm really struggling to create the illusion of playing the piano in front of me, using the same equipment as works fine on the VSL CFX (and Garritan CFX, and others) for that. It also sounds signifcantly less clear than the exceptionally clear VSL CFX.

I haven't had much time to play around today, and won't do for a few a days, but I hope when i get back to it, play with the settings more and get used to the sound more, something will click. At the moment, although much better than at first thanks to the changed settings, it's still fundamentally dissatisfying.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: Erard] #2789381
12/09/18 01:35 PM
12/09/18 01:35 PM
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karvala Offline
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Originally Posted by Erard
Originally Posted by karvala
I have some reservations in certain areas still (the sound stage is notably different from the CFX, and perhaps not for the better, but it might be possible to alleviate that by playing around with the mics further)

I forgot one point: did you turn on the delay on the High-Sur mic (at 27 ms)? I find it makes the stage more realistic - at least on headphones.


No, I didn't do that, but I will do and see if that helps with that; thanks!


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: karvala] #2789386
12/09/18 01:47 PM
12/09/18 01:47 PM
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David B Offline
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Originally Posted by karvala


Thanks, David. As soon as I have a preset I'm satisfied with I'll be happy to share it. For the time being, definitely try Erard's settings if you haven't already; he's dealt very effectively with some of the main problems and it's much improved as a result.


I did adjust the Midi sensitivity down to -20 and that does make a big difference. I don't feel like I've got my ear pressed right up to the hammer and strings anymore.

I don't have a way to adjust "midi curve."

God Bless,
David


Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Mac mini 2018/Focusrite Scarlett 2i4/KRK Rokit 6 G3 Studio Monitors
Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course; Lessons 1-39 Completed
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2789427
12/09/18 03:24 PM
12/09/18 03:24 PM
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Interesting. On my keyboard (Roland FP-90), I have to use a lot of effort to get a MIDI velocity of 100. For 127 I nearly have to do karate on it. The VSL Steinway only gets harsh when I really push it. I like that as it feels like an acoustic.

On my old Kawai MP10 it was much easier to get higher velocities, and Vienna Imperial would get harsh very quickly. I assume the Steinway would be the same. Incidentally, the Imperial also has the sound of a piano being violently assaulted at high velocities. It also has the most wonderful tenor section. I hope the Synchron Imperial has the same quality.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2789453
12/09/18 04:22 PM
12/09/18 04:22 PM
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karvala Offline
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Yeah, keyboards seem to vary quite a bit. I have to push pretty hard, but I can get 127 without too much effort (Kawai CA67), and breaking 100 is fairly routine. Similarly, I get below 30 at the other end equally routinely, so it seems to use quite a wide dynamic range. It's the routine 100+s that can cause me problems with this VST I think.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: Erard] #2789488
12/09/18 05:48 PM
12/09/18 05:48 PM
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Melodialworks Music Offline
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Originally Posted by Erard

I forgot one point: did you turn on the delay on the High-Sur mic (at 27 ms)? I find it makes the stage more realistic - at least on headphones.


Delay turned off for the other perspectives, right?

What settings do you use for body and sympathetic resonance?

Reverb setting?

Thanks so much. (I'm digging your sound :-) )

Last edited by Melodialworks Music; 12/09/18 05:50 PM.
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2789504
12/09/18 06:39 PM
12/09/18 06:39 PM
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Grazilerimba Online content
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@karvala, I wasn't aware that they changed the close mics like that. Bummer. And you're right about the decreased velocity sensitivity. I didn't know savihost has a built in velocity editor, gotta have a look at that. I tried those minihosts and savihosts a while back but couldn't get them to work properly. Should probably try it again.

As for the harshness, that's among the things I personally like about VSL's instruments. The highest velocity values are actually really f~~~ing harsh and loud. It's not like "let's play loudly, fortissimo here we go", but rather "let's take a hammer and smash this thing to pieces and our eardrums right along with it". A responsible pianist would probably never bang a real 200,000$ grand piano like that (too often, at least), so it's fun to do this to a cheap DP with VSL sometimes and actually get an appropriate response. Whenever I played VSL's instruments and then go back to the other VSTs I use it often feels like a certain part of expressiveness is missing, and that high dynamic range, especially the loudest segments, is part of that. But I do see where you're coming from. The config has got to be in such a way that these highest velocities are only triggered by actual bangs, and not by loud playing.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: Melodialworks Music] #2789514
12/09/18 06:51 PM
12/09/18 06:51 PM
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Erard Offline
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Erard

I forgot one point: did you turn on the delay on the High-Sur mic (at 27 ms)? I find it makes the stage more realistic - at least on headphones.


Delay turned off for the other perspectives, right?

What settings do you use for body and sympathetic resonance?

Reverb setting?

Thanks so much. (I'm digging your sound :-) )

Yes - delay is turned off on the other two mikes. Sympathetic resonance is at -6 and Body 0%

Reverb - just a touch if I remember correctly - the reverb (ambience) comes mostly from the High-Sur mike.


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: Grazilerimba] #2789518
12/09/18 06:59 PM
12/09/18 06:59 PM
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David B Offline
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Here is short little song on the Steinway D using Erard's settings with the Mid 2 added and minus the High Surround. I have the midi sensitivity set to -20.

I think this song sounds better on my VSL CFX, but I am appreciating this Steinway the more I play it. It's worth getting the full library just for the Ribbon mic.



God Bless,
David


Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Mac mini 2018/Focusrite Scarlett 2i4/KRK Rokit 6 G3 Studio Monitors
Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course; Lessons 1-39 Completed
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: Erard] #2790065
12/11/18 09:59 AM
12/11/18 09:59 AM
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angmyu Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Erard

I use the VSL VST in VSTHost, together with midiCurve - both are free to download and fairly easy to setup.


Hi, Erard, I have some questions.

After you said about VSTHost, I installed it and played my Steinway D with it. Then, I played Steinway D in Cakewalk and loaded the same preset. But there is a problem. The sound on Cakewalk had low volume and less sound quality than on VSTHost. Even though VSTHost is a free&lite program. Do you have the same sound quality in DAW and VSTHost?

And I also downloaded midiCurve(32bit) at other forum. But I didn't know how to use it. I've changed the shape of the velocity graph, but it hasn't changed. Am I doing something wrong?

Thank you for introducing me to a good program!

Last edited by angmyu; 12/11/18 10:05 AM.
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2790137
12/11/18 01:28 PM
12/11/18 01:28 PM
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Erard Offline
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You are welcome - happy you like it.
Unfortunately I know nothing about DAWs - but I can help with VSThost.

You should create a chain like this (ignore Engine Input):

[Linked Image]
midiCurve --- midi connection --- Synchron Pianos --- audio connection --- Engine output

Then click the midiCurve VST MIDI button (the orange one on the left) and set the Midi Input Device to your midi input.
On the Synchron pianos VST set the Midi Input device to something you don't have, I use Joysticks (otherwise it will receive the midi signal directly and not only from midiCurve).

Click on the 'e' of midiCurve to open the interface and click the Velocity checkbox on the right.

If you right click on the curve it creates a point you can move to set the curve. If you ALT left click it creates another type of point which controls the curve but leaves it smooth, without angles.

Hope this helps - otherwise, let me know.

Last edited by Erard; 12/11/18 01:29 PM.

Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2790289
12/11/18 09:51 PM
12/11/18 09:51 PM
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angmyu Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Erard
You are welcome - happy you like it.
Unfortunately I know nothing about DAWs - but I can help with VSThost.

You should create a chain like this (ignore Engine Input):

[Linked Image]
midiCurve --- midi connection --- Synchron Pianos --- audio connection --- Engine output

Then click the midiCurve VST MIDI button (the orange one on the left) and set the Midi Input Device to your midi input.
On the Synchron pianos VST set the Midi Input device to something you don't have, I use Joysticks (otherwise it will receive the midi signal directly and not only from midiCurve).

Click on the 'e' of midiCurve to open the interface and click the Velocity checkbox on the right.

If you right click on the curve it creates a point you can move to set the curve. If you ALT left click it creates another type of point which controls the curve but leaves it smooth, without angles.

Hope this helps - otherwise, let me know.


I checked late your solution because it was late at night when I posted. Sorry for late reply!

I saw your solution and then did a test right this morning. The result was magic! The VST responded immediately to the curves I made. This plug-in seems easier and more intuitive to use than the Midi Sensitivity function of Synchron Piano.

The sound quality of DAW and VSTHost seems depend on the internal settings of the program itself. I'll learn more about. The fact that VSTHost is compatible with 32 bit plug-ins also seems to be a huge advantage.

Thank you for your kind explanation!

Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2790366
12/12/18 05:52 AM
12/12/18 05:52 AM
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Followed the whole thread and I have to say you guys are amazing. To anybody who uses both libraries, how this new one stacks up against Synthogy’s Ivory Steinway D?

Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2790375
12/12/18 06:23 AM
12/12/18 06:23 AM
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karvala Offline
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That's an interesting question, because to me the only unambiguously great feature of the new VSL Steinway so far is its playability, which is great, but playability happens to be a strength of the Ivory pianos in general as well. Similarly, the main problem with Ivory pianos to me is their mid-distant one perspective, i.e. you can't get a close sound no matter how much you try. With the VSL CFX, you could get a convincing close sound with a bit of work; with the VSL Steinway, I have yet to find settings on which you can do that convincingly (Erard's recommendation is good, but it still sounds somewhat ambient and more like a recorded piano to me, plus I'm not wild about the tube mic sound). So both essentially have the same strengths and weaknesses.

If you offered me a choice of the two, I'd probably take the VSL instrument just because the range of mic perspectives do you give more options, and the playability is even better than the Ivory ACD. But I'd take the VSL CFX over their Steinway every time.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2790376
12/12/18 06:35 AM
12/12/18 06:35 AM
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I'm almost about to buy this, so if anyone has something to say to convince me otherwise, now would be a good time smile

As for Ivory, I can't compare yet, but I'd say that Ivory does not have pedal down samples while the VSL Steinway does have them. The sound must be so much better. Playability wise, I'd say that only the American Concert D is actually well playable. The core package (Ivory II) doesn't feel that playable to me, to be honest. I also haven't tried out the Studio Grands yet, and probably never will, because Ivory just feels very outdated to me now. They gotta step up their game and release Ivory III some time, with pedal down samples while at the same time retaining good half- and repedaling, which is going to be hard. They'd have to do new recordings from scratch. Honestly at this point I think Ivory is just the brand recognition anymore, it's been superseded by other VSTs in almost every regard. Only the ACD can hold a candle with its playability, which is easily matched by Garritan's CFX anyway, IMHO. Plus the ACD (as well as the Italian) has very fast decay of resonance for whatever reason, which didn't happen with the core package in the same manner.

Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: angmyu] #2790379
12/12/18 06:42 AM
12/12/18 06:42 AM
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Erard Offline
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@angmyu
You are welcome - great it's working now.

Originally Posted by angmyu
This plug-in seems easier and more intuitive to use than the Midi Sensitivity function of Synchron Piano


True - and also far more flexible. You can actually arrive at the perfect curve for your keyboard, which is crucial for a virtual piano with so many layers.

I don't like the velocity curves where you have just one or two knobs to adjust the depth of a fixed shape - but - in Synchron we don't have even that...


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: VSL Steinway D - released [Re: Erard] #2790388
12/12/18 07:36 AM
12/12/18 07:36 AM
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angmyu Offline OP
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I just decided to upgrade to Steinway Full. Standard is good enough to me, but some are not completely satisfied in mid-range. I don't know for sure what it is.

To be honest, I'm not sure if it will be worth the upgrade price. I hope that weakness gets solved with Full.

Originally Posted by Erard
in Synchron we don't have even that...


Yeah.. It's amazing that the usual function of the piano VST doesn't exist on this high-quality piano. They must update it. But I'm glad to find an alternative.

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