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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: PianogrlNW] #2778207
11/04/18 07:12 PM
11/04/18 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
In reply to Prout (don’t want to keep copying the expanding thread). My Henle Urtext of the Chopin Nocturne that is the subject of this thread does not have any markings like the example you show above. IOW, no crescendo in words with a decrescendo hairpin following it. I don’t know what the source is of this score. So it seems like the thread is veering slightly off topic. But I wiil still ask my teacher about playing the runs in Nocturne that is being discussed.
Sorry. The example I show above is not a Nocturne. It was just a random sample of Chopin from one my urtexts (3rd Ballade) that I posted in the piano forum a while back.

Last edited by prout; 11/04/18 07:15 PM.
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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2778208
11/04/18 07:13 PM
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PianogrlNW, Prout is suggesting mainly that the hairpins are there to note that the sections should be played with increasing or decreasing tempo....I had not heard this before but from his earlier posts in the thread it makes sense to me. Then again, what do I know? LOL Regardless, it fits in the discussion well enough, as we're directing the piece to pieces, as intended!


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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2778214
11/04/18 07:26 PM
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The agogic emphasis is so slight tht you might not even be aware it occurred, but, if you listen to a pianist who does it while tapping out a constant beat, you will imediately sense the agogic. It is what makes music emotional. We sigh and linger over emotional climaxes.

All of this occurs along with the push and pull of rubato and the rise and fall of dynamics. Many times the increase in dynamic level follows the enlargement of the time as you approach the climax of a line, or maybe linger on a note or two before continuing the long crescendo to an emptional climax, as is the case with the ballade I posted above.

But other times you want to linger on a note or two while the sound is dying away, sighs if you will, You may a dim. and closing hairpins together.

Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2781871
11/17/18 09:40 AM
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From the Recital 52 discussion...
Originally Posted by schinl
I have also followed the study group with interest, and would like to attempt this piece one day.
Originally Posted by schinl
I'm curious what the difference between all the versions you tried?

Thank you for your comment, Schin. I'm guessing from the above that you'll see this. Let me know if you don't. laugh

The first two measures are repeated in one edition, written out twice in others, sometimes with extra dynamic markings (for a softer repeat) and sometimes with a una corda instruction.

On the first beat of the second measure the E from the previous chord is held, in other editions it is played again. There is an opening hairpin under the last chords in that measure, opening and closing in other editions and just closing in another.

The first trill, F#-G#-F#-G#... is sometimes prefixed withan accacc. pair suggesting the trill begins E-F#-F#-G#... and another beginning E-F#-G#...

In the third measure of the first phrase, my M7, the first C# is held for three beats in others it's played again on beat three.

The first measure of the second phrase, my M13, finished with a four note accacc. E-F#-G#-A or with a three note E-F#-A.

The third beat in M15 begins with a semiq pair and triplet semiq's. In other editions it is is a pentuplet group.

The hairpins in the second half of the phrase are contradictory.

The B section, M21 begin with two bars of 3/4 time in RH against each 4/4 measure in the LH, per Chopin's autograph. Most editions continue 4/4 time and introduce triplets and groups of quavers and semiquavers per the manuscript from Chopin's sister.

Around measure 32 some editions have 2/3 time and 3/4 time as two measures, one has 5/4 time. The manuscript juggles 3/4 in RH, 4/4 in LH ending up in 3/4 in both hands. These all finish with the last two notes as dotted crotchet and quaver. Another edition continues 4/4 time and finishes with the last two notes as dotted quaver and semiquaver.

The rising run in M50, 52 or 53 (depending on edition) is grouped as [3, 3, 3, 2, 3, 3], [3,3,5,6], [6, 3,2,6] (all workable, so far) but also, from the autograph, [3, 3, 5, 5], missing the penultimate E.

I started with the Paderewski edition from the Chopin Institute and where it differs with one of the two Henle versions I went with whichever Henle version made most sense. I've now discarded all other editions and whatever I'm playing agrees with one of the Henle versions but not one of them consistently.
___________________________

On a side note, Schin, I studied calligraphy with Peter Thornton and Stan Knight with extras from Gaynor Goffe and Tom Perkins.


Richard
Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2781942
11/17/18 04:18 PM
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Some general tips from when I left :

- Slowly come of the notes with pedal and keys at same time in the first 4 bars.

Tune:

- Quiet, light touch
- Longer notes louder, but a short note after a long note should not be played louder

- Trills start slower initially then build up
- Especially the longer trills normally start slower, build up faster, finish slower
- Strict legato the left hand quavers especially 3th/4th

End:

- Split the runs at the end with the base

- First run (18) split 4+4+5+5,
- Second run (35) split 8+9+9+9
- Third run (11) is split 2+3+3+3
- Last run (13) split 3+3+3+4

That's all I can remember, good luck smile

Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2782328
11/18/18 07:18 PM
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I received some feedback on my version of this piece from Pianist685 in Recital 52 that may give insights into anyone else planning or working on this piece. Some of it is just my own misreading or poor playing but some are differences in the scores that may be pertinent.

Originally Posted by Pianist685
I wonder if one should strike the c# at 0:35 and 0:37 twice. I have a score where the note should be held.
This, I believe goes back to Paderewski and his edition for the Chopin Institute. Neither Chopin's autograph nor the manuscript from his sister shows this tie. Both the Henle versions have the top C# in M7 played again and recordings by Claudio Arrau, Daniel Barenboim and Maria João Pires follow suit.

Originally Posted by Pianist685
The fourth left hand note in bar 28 should be g#, not a.
This was just a slip. I normally get it right.

Originally Posted by Pianist685
The first left hand notes in bar 40 at 2:48, bar 42 at 2:50 and bar 44 at 2:53 should be d# and not d, according to my score.
Again, my mistake but I want to point out for this passage that I changed the hand distribution. When I realised I had to speed up this passage I moved the two notes before the low bass notes into the RH (as it had little else to do at the time). Someone else might find this helpful. I'm using 1 for the B# and 3 for the G#. It looks odd on paper but I'm using 2 and 3 for the C# and D# that are meant for the RH so it feels fine at the piano.

Originally Posted by Pianist685
Then you are playing the whole piece piano without any considerable changes in dynamics. My score says “con forza” in bar 15, forte in bar 19 with dim. to pp in bar 21, forte again in bar 29, pp in bar 30, same in bars 49 and 50.
The dynamics are still being worked on as I mentioned in my notes. I started slowing this piece down around six or seven weeks ago and it will take me some time to soften the tone to suit. The con forza runs are as loud as I want them but I do need to bring up the level for M17-20 and the add some appassionato in the reprise, where the top E is the climax of the piece.

The forte in the manuscript is under the E in M18, the climax of the phrase, not under the G (as in Paderewski's edition). The F and PP in M29-30 are also Padereswki's and don't appear in the autograph.


Richard
Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2782338
11/18/18 08:08 PM
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zrtf90,

In general, I agree with your comments. The Paderewski edition really should be viewed with great scepticism. Why they didn’t defer to the manuscripts available, but chose to add notations that Chopin did not put in the score and change notations Chopin did put in the score is beyond me. And, more importantly, they didn’t mention to anyone in the edition that they had done so. That is not scholarship.

As far as dynamics go, this is a nocturne. It needs to be dreamy - large changes on dynamics are unnecessary. Most of the changes in intensity occur through agogic emphasis, which has its own subtle dynamic shift.

Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2788756
12/07/18 01:42 PM
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At this thread has run it's course, I wanted to thank everyone for participating. It has been a fantastic journey, and I've learned a lot here. zrtf90, your assistance has been invaluable. Prout, thanks for the insights, and pianogrlNW, I'm glad you were able to pick it up as well.

My teacher, btw, also mentioned playing it slowly (Lento con gran expressione) so as to hear the quiet between the melody. I'm pretty much finished with the piece now and will try again to get a good recording. I might save it for the next recital. On to the next one. I'm beginning 72.1 (actually already learned the second half of it; working my way back).

Thanks again!


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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2788843
12/07/18 05:50 PM
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Since I'm just about to start in on this one, I'll probably post here if I have any questions or need insight. So don't be surprised if it pops up again!


Consolation No.2 E maj, F.Liszt
Nocturne C# minor, FChopin
Clair de Lune, C.Debussy



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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2815637
02/15/19 09:57 AM
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Bravo, Craig, for producing a fine performance. That's a serious accomplishment.

This is a wonderful piece which, like the Liszt Consolation, can be revisited over the years and will improve with each new learning and your cumulative skills will shine whenever you play it.


And thanks for the mention.


Richard
Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2815766
02/15/19 02:20 PM
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Thanks, Richard...funny thing is as I listen to it now (the recording I submitted, that is), I feel I can play it a little more fluently now, with a few more months under my belt. I just couldn't subject myself to the multiple frustrating recording attepmts again just yet, though, especially with the Bach recital right around the corner.

I'm looking forward to another collaborative project in the future! Maybe some Debussy - Arabesque? Clare De Lune? Other composers?


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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2816078
02/16/19 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Maybe some Debussy - Arabesque? Clare De Lune? Other composers?
I'm not sure whether the question is rhetorical or aimed at me.

If it were my choice I'd move away from the French Romantic period of Chopin-Liszt, further afield than Debussy, and look at something a little different.

I don't know what else you've been working on other than 72/1 and don't know whether to press on with pieces that challenge you technically or relax with an easier piece where you can look at a higher standard of achievement.

These suggestions, which are fairly gentle in pace, are but a torn-off corner from my list of prospects. If they don't appeal they might give you ideas or where to look:

Scarlatti: Kp.208 or Kp. 462
Haydn: Adagio from Hob. XVI/23, 2nd mvt. (8m20) or Mozart: Adagio, K. 282, 1st mvt.
(German Romantic) Schumann: Eintritt, Op. 82/1 or Mendelssohn: Andante espressivo, Op. 85/1
Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37/10 or Grieg: Solitary Traveller, Op. 43/2
Albeniz: Rumores de la Caleta, Op. 71/6 or Balakirev: Mazurka No. 2 in C# Minor

Do you have list of prospects yourself? Would you want something more up tempo?


Richard
Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2816188
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Thanks for the intro to new music....all of those are new to me. Did you list these to be different in style than the romantics I've been playing, or to be a little less demanding, which I agree would be nice for a change! Some don't look any less so though.

Of those, I think I liked the Tchaikovsky best, but then it may have been Khatia's beautiful interpretation. It's a little long but seems somewhat manageable.

I also like the Grieg and have been considering picking up the Lyric Pieces. I recently bought Songs Without Words, and the Mendelssohn piece is in there. The Scarlatti 208 was nice, and the 462 very interesting with those scales in octaves (it was nice to follow the music in the video).

Just had time to briefly listen to some of them. I'm actually printing a version of October from MuseOpen to see if feasible.....doesn't look that crazy, actually....


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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2816200
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As a matter of fact, I am able to sight read the October piece, albeit slowly and not perfectly, but it seems quite feasible, so if you’d like to set up a thread on that one I would be glad to learn it also. Maybe we can get Ellen and some others back in as well.


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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2816201
02/16/19 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Thanks for the intro to new music....all of those are new to me. Did you list these to be different in style than the romantics I've been playing, or to be a little less demanding, which I agree would be nice for a change! Some don't look any less so though.

Of those, I think I liked the Tchaikovsky best, but then it may have been Khatia's beautiful interpretation. It's a little long but seems somewhat manageable.

I also like the Grieg and have been considering picking up the Lyric Pieces. I recently bought Songs Without Words, and the Mendelssohn piece is in there. The Scarlatti 208 was nice, and the 462 very interesting with those scales in octaves (it was nice to follow the music in the video).

Wow, for someone who didn't understand or listen to classical until a few years ago, you seem "all in" on classical now! Do you have fights with your family in car trips over the radio controls? (I do and I always lose cry )


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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2816208
02/16/19 03:39 PM
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Yes......but......

Classical goes nowhere near the car. The fights are classic rock / alt rock vs rap / hip-hop. My wife and I like rock / alt rock, kids hip-hop and rap. Classical music is my thing now, they don't touch it. Interestingly, when I'm in the car alone, it's almost all alt rock (Alt Nation or Lithium on Sirius).


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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2816219
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Originally Posted by cmb13
As a matter of fact, I am able to sight read the October piece, albeit slowly and not perfectly, but it seems quite feasible, so if you’d like to set up a thread on that one I would be glad to learn it also. Maybe we can get Ellen and some others back in as well.


I just learned it this past fall (yes, by October) and could contribute. Very doable technically but quite challenging musically.

Last edited by dumka1; 02/16/19 03:58 PM.
Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: dumka1] #2816232
02/16/19 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dumka1
I just learned it this past fall (yes, by October) and could contribute. Very doable technically but quite challenging musically.

I thought your performance of this piece for the Slavic recital was wonderful!


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2816237
02/16/19 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dumka1
I just learned it this past fall (yes, by October) and could contribute. Very doable technically but quite challenging musically.

Thanks....that would be great!
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Good find!


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Re: Chopin Nocturne 20 C-sharp min - Posthumous - Study Group [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2816249
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by dumka1
I just learned it this past fall (yes, by October) and could contribute. Very doable technically but quite challenging musically.

I thought your performance of this piece for the Slavic recital was wonderful!


Oh, thanks so much, it's so nice to hear. I've become more comfortable with it since and am playing the middle part a little faster and am trying to vary things more. But my (Russian) teacher still finds some nuances that can be improved. I'm completely in love with this piece, it's so melancholy and yet rich with all these voices.

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