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(sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options #2788691
12/07/18 10:21 AM
12/07/18 10:21 AM
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Lexington, NC
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mackguy Offline OP
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Hi everyone, new member here, first time post. I'll give an executive summary, and then some background/detail. Really appreciate any help here.

I have a Yamaha P60 full size keyboard that I got in college when I was moving often and needed portability. I'm now settled, have a home, with some space, and the black plastic thing on a black metal frame is a bit of an eyesore in the fairly "formal" room where I've set up my music corner. I've also been irritated by the single pedal, that's not at all like a piano pedal, and slides around the floor as I'm playing. The P60 has a "decent" action for a keyboard, and sounds "fine" but I'm kind of ready for something more substantial, aesthetically, and functionally.
Sure, I could hop on Craigslist and buy a used upright for <$500, but in my time I've played plenty of cheap uprights (and grands) with both worse action and sound than my P60. I don't want to get something big, heavy, hard to sell and move that I'm going to want to upgrade in a few months. I'd like to buy something that will work for me and my family (I have two young boys who I hope will share my love of music) and be a sort of "lifetime" investment.

But I'm not settled in on exactly what I want yet, and need some direction.

Right now, I'm assuming I will need an upright format, though I have a large room, and could conceivably rearrange it around a compact grand.

"Action" is slightly more important to me than overall sound quality, I like to have some good dynamic range (something the P60 really lacks).

I see a few options.

"Digital" piano: CLP-685 looks like it's at the top of the market here, as far as the action goes. The "AvantGrand" NU1X looks like a contender as well, though I can't find much commentary directly comparing these two. In either case,I see the "pro" of something that doesn't need tuning, having the ability to adjust volume, and different voices.
The con for me is I'd always feel like I had something "fake", something that will be technologically obsolete, and not quite the lifetime/heirloom investment I'm hoping for.

Acoustic Piano: Here's where I get really confused. With digitals, it's easier because I see basically newer=better, and for the 2 that are really in my head, a price range of $6-8,000... Acoustics, we go from nearly free Craigslist clunkers, to more than the value of my house for a professional concert grand.. Just to be fair, I'd say it's reasonable to pick a price range comparable to the digitals I'm considering. This seems to get into a mid-range Yamaha upright (B2, or P22, etc) or an Essex, or an entry level Baldwin.
OR perhaps a low/mid range used grand.. Or a higher end used upright. We don't seem to have many piano stores in my area.. I know of a Yamaha dealer, and a Steinway gallery, both of which have some used pianos in stock.

Now for the background:

I've been playing piano since I was ~5, but have had various stages of disinterest, or just not having time or inclination to mess with it. I have no imagination of being a professional musician, but don't imagine myself a beginner... From middle-high school my main instrument was organ (we actually had a full size church organ in our house) and at one point I could actually make my way through Tocatta&Fuegue in D Minor. My skills have regressed since then, but things seem to be coming back somewhat quickly.

Now, I enjoy piano, but my all-time-favorite instrument is the pipe organ... I won't be getting one of those in my home anytime soon, so here the digital piano option has some appeal, but modern digitals seem to have a thousand other features I don't care about at all...
If I had a huge house and an unlimited budget, a concert Steinway and a pipe organ would suit me fine. I don't care about having 100 other "voices", metronomes, recording, graphic equalizers, etc...

How strongly should I consider the idea of a "compact" grand, and is it reasonable to get a "lifetime" heirloom quality grand <$10,000? I don't really have a hard budget, I'm more trying to explore what my budget should be to get something I'll be happy with... If it means delaying a purchase 2-5 years to get something I'll keep for 30 years rather then be bored of after 2, then I'll do it.. However, I'm not really in a position where spending more than $10k seems like a smart thing to do in the forseeable future, and I'd much rather be comfortably below that.

A grand would also mean a major "redecorate" of a room that right now has a music corner, and repurpose it as a "music room" with a conversational corner..

I've always liked Yamaha instruments, though I've read some pretty compelling reviews that indicate the Essex is a better made piano. I know Steinways are spectacular, but I'm always wary of "budget" brands from premium manufacturers.

I'm sorry for the rambling... I'm hoping to get to the Yamaha dealer this weekend to get a side by side comparison of digital vs acoustic, and may even check out the Steinway gallery over lunch today. That should start to answer some questions..


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Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788709
12/07/18 10:50 AM
12/07/18 10:50 AM
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With either the Yamaha or Kawai grand being10-15 years old and not being used in an institution you would be fine.
Actions on these grands are very good. Yamaha has somewhat a brighter tone compared to Kawai.
However you would have to stretch your budget maybe slightly over 10k.
Just try a few C2, C3 Yamahas and RX2, RX3 Kawais.

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788751
12/07/18 12:26 PM
12/07/18 12:26 PM
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You sound like a candidate for a Hybrid. You'll get an adjustable action, state of the art digital technology and access to other sounds if no other way than through MIDI. You're price will be about the same as a decent entry level small grand or maybe even less.


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Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788763
12/07/18 01:17 PM
12/07/18 01:17 PM
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Posts: 59
Ontario, Canada
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Hello,

I will start by saying that I have tried some of the organ voices on a digital and they just do not sound proper. Perhaps they would sound better if they were really high end digitals, but of that I am unsure.

Do not discount the idea of a quality upright at a good price. A local dealer has some uprights that I was quite inclined to buy even going in with the desires of a grand. Check out some of the prices on both his line and the Lomence line. Just keep in mind that this is a Canadian dealer and all prices are CAD.

http://www.jdgrandt.com/

Terribly sorry if links to stores are not allowed. I do not work for him or receive commission. I just had a very good experience with this dealer.

Q


Q
Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788779
12/07/18 02:28 PM
12/07/18 02:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 200
Chiltern Hills, England.
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I'd also suggest a quality used upright which should be well within your 'comfortable' range and rewarding to play for many years - plenty of time to crystallise your thoughts around that 'heirloom quality grand' and whether you really want such a thing.

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788781
12/07/18 02:34 PM
12/07/18 02:34 PM
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Southeast USA
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For that kind of money, and if an heirloom is fairly important, I would go with a U1/K300 or U3/K500. I think you are off on the upright prices - a B2 is less than $6K new in my area which is not to far from you (MSRP's are quite a bit higher than actual prices on the street). I think the K300 is around $7K new and should be similar for the U1. Being a thrifty guy, I would go make friends with my local RPT and 1) ask him if he knows of any newer used ones for sale, and 2) if he will be able to inspect used one that you find. Just talk to him or her, then can give you lots of information. He may even know of a local higher end upright that you can snag for $8K.

Actually, if I was in the young family stage, I would just find a really nice used Yamaha or Kawai upright for $3-4K...Good Luck!


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Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788797
12/07/18 03:20 PM
12/07/18 03:20 PM
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Posts: 63
Lexington, NC
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mackguy Offline OP
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Thanks for the opinions here. So far my research has consisted of online, and it seems the piano industry uses the same irritating "retail" price markings of the guitar industry, and none of the local dealers mention prices for used or new pianos on their websites, so the MSRP is all I've had to go on so far.

I'm curious as to the response someone more knowledgeable has on this comparison of Essex vs Yamaha
http://www.artist-pianos.com/about/blog/yamaha-vs-kawai/
I see this happens to be an Essex dealer but found it a pretty compelling sales-pitch. Then again, I know cars, and a little about guitars, and nearly nothing about pianos.

From a brand standpoint, especially if I start looking at used options (which I will do), is there a standout brand, or short list of "top tier" brands to limit my search to? I have a pretty good impression of Yamaha overall. I know Steinway is outstanding, but likely not feasible in my price range. I know of Esses and Boston only due to their relationship to Steinway.
I'm familiar with Baldwin but not sure how they stack up against similarly priced instruments from Yamaha, etc. Yamaha, Steinway(&relatives), and Baldwin are really the only ones I'm familiar with, but I'm sure I'm missing others, that I may rule out simply based on lack of familiarity.

As I said, right now I'm more focused on getting a particular piano that I'll be happy with for some time. I know I've played various entry level pianos (Sammick etc) over the years that I wouldn't trade my P60 keyboard for..


http://www.alphagearhead.com
Boston UP-126E
Yamaha P-60 Digital
A variety of guitars


Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: SilentQ] #2788813
12/07/18 03:42 PM
12/07/18 03:42 PM
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New York City
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For starters you should thoroughly read the Piano Book, the Piano Buyer, and other books by Larry Fine(see link in left hand column) as by far the best source of unbiased information about pianos and piano pricing. Your postings on this thread show misconceptions about several things in addition to MSRP and Essex.

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: SilentQ] #2788816
12/07/18 03:45 PM
12/07/18 03:45 PM
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New York City
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Originally Posted by SilentQ
Do not discount the idea of a quality upright at a good price. A local dealer has some uprights that I was quite inclined to buy even going in with the desires of a grand. Check out some of the prices on both his line and the Lomence line. Just keep in mind that this is a Canadian dealer and all prices are CAD.http://www.jdgrandt.com/
IMO this is a bad idea since the OP is unlikely to travel to Canada to try out the pianos, and it's almost never a good idea to buy a piano, especially one of little known quality, without trying it out personally.

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788819
12/07/18 03:51 PM
12/07/18 03:51 PM
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Yamaha C series are surely a safe bet unless it is not an institutional piano. Simply because of the consistent build quality
.
With grands 5' 8" and above sizes should be considered. There are some good ones as the 5'6" Estonia. But that is an exception.

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788826
12/07/18 04:11 PM
12/07/18 04:11 PM
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Yamaha U1, Kawai K300 and the taller U3 and k500 uprights are dependable instruments and known to last .They are made in Japan which has a long traditional of piano making .The Essex is supposed to be designed by Steinways but is made in China .They generally are not as well regarded as a Yahama U1 .These are all uprights .
The Boston uprights are good uprights ,also designed by Steinways but made in Japan by Kawai except for the shorter institutional model which is made in Indonesia. Boston pianos are more expensive than the Essex .The Yamaha P22 is now made in indonesia. Also some of the Kawai K300 are made in Indonesia and
some are made in Japan.
A good upright is better than a mediocre or bad grand piano .If you buy a used piano you could also look for a good German piano .
Best wishes .

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788866
12/07/18 06:06 PM
12/07/18 06:06 PM
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Southern California
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Mackguy,

You are in an enviable position. A young guy, two young boys, and a wife that is apparently supportive of having a grand piano in her living room. smile. I have a Kawai NV-10. I like it a lot as it is a very good hybrid subsititude for a grand piano. It has the same action as the Kawai GL30 and GX1. (Both 5’5” grands). So I highly recommend it. However, if I could I would trade it in for a Kawai or Yamaha, Boston, etc. grand piano, even smaller than 5’5” in a heartbeat. Get the real grand and you won’t regret it.


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788897
12/07/18 07:47 PM
12/07/18 07:47 PM
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Portland, OR, USA
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Originally Posted by mackguy

"Digital" piano: CLP-685 looks like it's at the top of the market here, as far as the action goes. The "AvantGrand" NU1X looks like a contender as well, though I can't find much commentary directly comparing these two. In either case,I see the "pro" of something that doesn't need tuning, having the ability to adjust volume, and different voices.
The con for me is I'd always feel like I had something "fake", something that will be technologically obsolete, and not quite the lifetime/heirloom investment I'm hoping for.

CLP-685 does not have the top of the market action. In fact, it has one of the worst actions IMHO, very initial touch-weight heavy and feels unnatural. You should search for/ask in the DP forum about CLP-685 and of course try it out yourself. The top of the market actions would be Yamaha AvantGrand N1/N2/N3/N3X and Kawai Novus NV10. Re: NU1X - note that it has upright action and not grand action and has a loud note issue that some people find objectionable but some are fine with (there is a long thread in DP forum regarding this). The action in latest Roland LX-706/708 looks good on paper though I don't have any opinion to share as I haven't yet played these - but they are in your price range and you should check these out. Among these choices, I would recommend Kawai Novus NV10.

Re: acoustic vs. digital, that is a very hard and personal choice - good luck! smile. But, if you like pipe organ sound, perhaps a digital piano has more to offer as you can get both piano and pipe organ sounds with a DP?

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Embertone Walker D Full/Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6

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Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788906
12/07/18 09:54 PM
12/07/18 09:54 PM
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North Tx
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It is important to take your time and get a feel in person for what's available. I have played the latest Yamaha and Kawai top of the line hybrid pianos and do not find them compelling, though the actions feel fairly nice. But you do not have anything near the control over produced sound compared to a grand piano (or upright). Simply one person's opinion. Don't decide based chiefly on what you find in forums, though they are helpful. Let us know your thoughts as you play them.

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2788942
12/08/18 02:19 AM
12/08/18 02:19 AM
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There are good Chinese pianos as well .These include Ritmuiler, Kaiserberg and Hailun as examples .You need to take time playing all of these .Do not rush into buying. Always have a piano technician check any used piano before you buy .The Yamaha P22 is still also highly regarded.

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2789185
12/08/18 06:30 PM
12/08/18 06:30 PM
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Lexington, NC
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mackguy Offline OP
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Hi everyone,
Thanks again for the thoughts.

I have actually visited a piano gallery and given a cursory look at a few options. I looked at the NUX1, CSP-150, and CSP-170 digital options.
Of those I liked the NUX1 but it lacks a pipe organ sound, and some of the educational features which are the main appeal of a digital to me, and costing substantially more than the CSP series was a negative.
Between the 150 and 170 is a $1,000 difference.

For acoustics I sampled a new 5’8” Pearl River that the dealer would sell for $8,500 (I think), a used (age unknown) Kawai GM1 4’10” grand for $7,350, and a 1988 Yamaha G2 which they would sell for $8,675.
The Yamaha is in a medium/dark wood finish that I prefer over “Ebony”.
Delivery is included in those prices. I didn’t have a chance to get into what (if any) warranty was offered on the used pianos, nor did I have the opportunity to fully inspect them due to kids going crazy, so I’d need a 2nd trip solo to fully evaluate. Also need to check a few other local places.

Now: my conclusion was I really liked the G2, and the price seems “reasonable”. I like that it is wood finished not black, it had a nice action and sound. Assuming everything else on it holds up to a more thorough inspection is there any reason to NOT pursue this model/age in that price range (I think there may be some room left in that price, but it’s marked at $10k)

I like the digital and may go that way but only as a steppingstone, so going as cheap as possible, while getting the features I want would be the plan. CSP-150 or perhaps going cheaper.

Thoughts?


http://www.alphagearhead.com
Boston UP-126E
Yamaha P-60 Digital
A variety of guitars


Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2789215
12/08/18 08:28 PM
12/08/18 08:28 PM
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North Vancouver
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Lady Bird Online content
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Both Yahama and Kawai make good uprights and grands .If however you are thinking of the piano becoming an heirloom you really need to get something newer than than from1988 .Pianos age just like people, they become in need much work to keep them going and then most become useless .
Perhaps a new Essex or Yahama B2 or B3 would be much better and you would have a warranty. These are uprights ,but you could later trade them in for a grand .An Essex upright would be way better than the other brand you mentioned.
Also the Yamaha B series although made in Indonesia is made by a Yamaha factory there .So quality control one would expect to be good .
Please Google Piano Brands Piano Buyer . Best wishes.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 12/08/18 08:30 PM. Reason: Spelling
Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: Lady Bird] #2789225
12/08/18 09:25 PM
12/08/18 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Both Yahama and Kawai make good uprights and grands .If however you are thinking of the piano becoming an heirloom you really need to get something newer than than from1988 .Pianos age just like people, they become in need much work to keep them going and then most become useless .
Perhaps a new Essex or Yahama B2 or B3 would be much better and you would have a warranty. These are uprights ,but you could later trade them in for a grand .An Essex upright would be way better than the other brand you mentioned.
Also the Yamaha B series although made in Indonesia is made by a Yamaha factory there .So quality control one would expect to be good .
Please Google Piano Brands Piano Buyer . Best wishes.
To me "heirloom", implies a certain quality. Since Essex is not of that quality, it's not a good choice for an heirloom piano.

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2789245
12/08/18 10:46 PM
12/08/18 10:46 PM
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Neither is a 1988 Yamaha piano .What I said is he could trade in a new
Essex in a few years time for a newer grand or better upright !An Essex is certainly better than a PR grand !

Re: (sort of) first time piano buyer, with too many options [Re: mackguy] #2789247
12/08/18 10:47 PM
12/08/18 10:47 PM
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Lady Bird Online content
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Neither is a 1988 Yamaha piano .What I said is he could trade in a new
Essex in a few years time for a newer grand or better upright !An Essex is certainly better than a PR grand !
What heirloom quality can you get for $10,000 ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 12/08/18 10:49 PM. Reason: Missing word
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