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Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 #2788504
12/06/18 07:27 PM
12/06/18 07:27 PM
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TimM_980 Offline OP
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Are there any dangers in tuning a piano down to 432 from 440 all at once? Or does it need to be gradual? I’m using CyberTuner. Would it be okay to start at A0 and work up or better to do upper registers first?
Thanks,
Tim

Last edited by TimM_980; 12/06/18 07:28 PM.
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Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788513
12/06/18 07:56 PM
12/06/18 07:56 PM
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No dangers in either pitch raising or lowering.
Doesn't matter what your approach is, it will be unstable when you're done with the first pass and will require another 1 or 2 passes to resemble stability.


Keith Akins, RPT
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USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
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Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788518
12/06/18 08:29 PM
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The only danger is that the piano will gradually get closer to the universal natural frequencies and cause serious feedback issues. The soundboard might crack. I suggest that you aim for A441 or A443 instead.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788531
12/06/18 09:38 PM
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Tim,

What motivates you to do this? Just curious.

Pwg


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Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788532
12/06/18 09:39 PM
12/06/18 09:39 PM
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Its more stable if you start from one end of the piano, I prefer starting in the bass. The first pass should be relatively quick, don't worry about setting pins. The first pass gets the tension where you want it. The second pass is slower, with pin setting. You will want to tune the piano again in 1-4 weeks.

If it were me, I'd do the first pass by turning the pins without listening, to lower the pitch - but that takes practice to get it relatively close.




Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: Bob] #2788543
12/06/18 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob
Its more stable if you start from one end of the piano, I prefer starting in the bass. The first pass should be relatively quick, don't worry about setting pins. The first pass gets the tension where you want it. The second pass is slower, with pin setting. You will want to tune the piano again in 1-4 weeks.

If it were me, I'd do the first pass by turning the pins without listening, to lower the pitch - but that takes practice to get it relatively close.

in Russian special literature for piano technicians it is recommended to start any tuningfirst pass with 3 octaves (G, A). Then "move" to the bass register ( to left) and respectively to 4 octave (to right). It's care pinblock about, I'm think

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: Chris Leslie] #2788562
12/07/18 12:32 AM
12/07/18 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
The only danger is that the piano will gradually get closer to the universal natural frequencies and cause serious feedback issues. The soundboard might crack. I suggest that you aim for A441 or A443 instead.


Nah. They've got a crystal for that.

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788599
12/07/18 03:53 AM
12/07/18 03:53 AM
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You're lowering the pitch about 32 cents.

As you are lowering some strings, others will start to creep up. You may want to monitor this as you do the initial rough pass, especially since it would be easy to do so with your RCT.

You definitely want to do this if this is an old piano, has rusty strings, or the bridges or other structural components seem iffy. In fact, you might want to lower the pitch using 2 small coarse passes rather than one big one. Use your best judgment.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
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Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788608
12/07/18 05:06 AM
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I found this site helpful, regarding the ideas behind A432 https://ask.audio/articles/music-theory-432-hz-tuning-separating-fact-from-fiction

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788717
12/07/18 11:12 AM
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While a reduction of 8Hz is unlikely to result in physical harm to the piano, it will take more than one pass - perhaps several - to achieve stability at the new pitch.

It has to be borne in mind also that if it is a reasonably modern piano, the scale is not designed for A432 (and even if it's a very old piano it's unlikely to have been designed for lower than A435). The stringing scale - string thickness, length, and tension, were designed for A440 or slightly above (Bosendorfer pianos ship from the factory at A443, for example).

A reduction of 8Hz will result in a departure from the calculated scale design and a consequent change in tonal quality (quite other than the simple change in pitch). I'd be reluctant to subject a piano to that.

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788720
12/07/18 11:17 AM
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Beethoven's tuning fork (A) is in the British Library, and there are recordings of it online. It is at A455.5

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788743
12/07/18 12:14 PM
12/07/18 12:14 PM
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Do stringing scale designs in modern pianos include nominal stretched tuning in their calculations?

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788768
12/07/18 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TimM_980
Are there any dangers in tuning a piano down to 432?


I'm pretty sure that if enough people tune their instrument to A432, the whole universe will collapse, bringing with it the space-time continuum. Proceed with caution.

Last edited by Bourniplus; 12/07/18 01:51 PM. Reason: edited to stay polite

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Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: David Boyce] #2788778
12/07/18 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Beethoven's tuning fork (A) is in the British Library, and there are recordings of it online. It is at A455.5


That's not bad, considering the rate of inflation.


Ralph

Casio Privia PX-760
Pianoteq Stage
Pianist since April, 2015
Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: prout] #2788818
12/07/18 03:49 PM
12/07/18 03:49 PM
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Originally Posted by prout
Do stringing scale designs in modern pianos include nominal stretched tuning in their calculations?

The scale spreadsheets I have used use theoretical frequencies. Since there are normally several notes for each string size it would follow that the small change for stretch for individual notes would be insignificant.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: Chris Leslie] #2788827
12/07/18 04:13 PM
12/07/18 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by prout
Do stringing scale designs in modern pianos include nominal stretched tuning in their calculations?

The scale spreadsheets I have used use theoretical frequencies. Since there are normally several notes for each string size it would follow that the small change for stretch for individual notes would be insignificant.

The stretch amounts though in the F7 up and F1 down can be anywhere from -30 to +50 cents. C8 on my piano is about +32 cents and A0 is about -25 cents. These stretches come from the piano. I don’t add any extra.

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: prout] #2788831
12/07/18 04:29 PM
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If you do some error analysis, you can see whether it is significant or not.


Semipro Tech
Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: BDB] #2788871
12/07/18 06:13 PM
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I did a little math on your recommendation. Since tension varies as the square of the frequency, and percentage of breaking point (a sort of variable in aid of ‘tone’ quality) is a linear function, it appears that the tension varies only by about 2.9% for a 25 cent change, 3.8% for a 32 cent change, and 5.9% for a 50 cent change.

To me, it would seem that the change in tone of those few notes where the stretch is significant would not be discernible.

I do know from experience in tuning clavichords and harpsichords (low tension brass strings), that a change of 200 cents (A=392Hz) really kills the tone of a modern instrument scaled for A=440. Better to restring.

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788884
12/07/18 07:12 PM
12/07/18 07:12 PM
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If you intend on stabilizing and leaving it at 432, then perhaps either way. Too many variables. Level of experience. Quality of the instrument. Some pianos will do better with it than others. The better we know the particular piano, the less likely mistakes - some rather costly - will be made.


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788899
12/07/18 08:00 PM
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Thanks for all the comments/advice. I have decided to keep it at 440. I am not ready to deal with a potential disaster. I called the manufacturer to see if the piano can handle lowering the pitch and the technician there told me it is a bad idea for the piano. He also said to ignore people on pianoworld forum because half the stuff on here is terrible information.

Last edited by TimM_980; 12/07/18 08:00 PM.
Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788907
12/07/18 10:23 PM
12/07/18 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TimM_980
Thanks for all the comments/advice. I have decided to keep it at 440. I am not ready to deal with a potential disaster. I called the manufacturer to see if the piano can handle lowering the pitch and the technician there told me it is a bad idea for the piano. He also said to ignore people on pianoworld forum because half the stuff on here is terrible information.


grin You have chosen wisely.


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788910
12/07/18 10:51 PM
12/07/18 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TimM_980
Thanks for all the comments/advice. I have decided to keep it at 440. I am not ready to deal with a potential disaster. I called the manufacturer to see if the piano can handle lowering the pitch and the technician there told me it is a bad idea for the piano. He also said to ignore people on pianoworld forum because half the stuff on here is terrible information.

C'mon! If half the information here is terrible, it means the other half is great! So at least you break even! laugh


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
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Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788957
12/08/18 04:54 AM
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The space-time continuum is safe! For the time being anyway....

How do you know that the technician at the manufacturer doesn't have half terrible information?

Could he give us a breakdown of how the half thing works, since he is an expert? I mean, is it the case that half the contributors here give all bad, and the other half all good, information? Or does every contributor give half good and half bad information? Is the information in each post half good and half bad, or is it the case that half of one's posts are all good, and the other half of one's posts all bad? Should I call the guy every time I want to post, to check the good/bad ratio?


There are of course other possible fractional variables and probabilities. But that's too much arithmetic for me.....

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788962
12/08/18 05:55 AM
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Pianoworld also tells me that a manufacturers' technician says that half the information on Pianoworld is terrible, including the information that a manufacturers' technician says that half the information on Pianoworld is terrible, including the information that a manufacturers' technician says that half the information on Pianoworld is terrible...

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788984
12/08/18 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by TimM_980
Thanks for all the comments/advice. I have decided to keep it at 440. I am not ready to deal with a potential disaster. I called the manufacturer to see if the piano can handle lowering the pitch and the technician there told me it is a bad idea for the piano. He also said to ignore people on pianoworld forum because half the stuff on here is terrible information.
IMO, this is a valuable lesson. It can be demonstrated that some portion of the information provided on PW is simply opinion unsubstantiated by fact. Other information is provided and butressed by verifiable data.

For the most part, opinions lacking supporting evidence should be ignored, unless they refer strictly to a subjective bias - “Red is the best colour.”

Information butressed by facts can be studied and then accepted or rejected. The best arguments occur n both sides provide valid and possibly contradictory evidence.

Just my opinion. whistle

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2788991
12/08/18 09:10 AM
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Having not tuned my 1945 (about) B.Brock upright for "about" 4yrs I found that the notes from A3 to A4 had dropped fairly evenly, and as A4 was just about 435, which is the lowest setting on my Yamaha (Ha! Ha!), tuner I thouht I'd stick to A4 at 435.
Seems to be sounding fine but then I'm no great pianist !

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2789015
12/08/18 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TimM_980
Thanks for all the comments/advice. I have decided to keep it at 440. I am not ready to deal with a potential disaster. I called the manufacturer to see if the piano can handle lowering the pitch and the technician there told me it is a bad idea for the piano. He also said to ignore people on pianoworld forum because half the stuff on here is terrible information.

Then tell him to come on PW'S Technical Forum and set us all straight. smile


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
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Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: daniokeeper] #2789053
12/08/18 12:06 PM
12/08/18 12:06 PM
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There are so many comedians on here. I'm starting to think the 50% estimate should be a little bit higher.

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2789103
12/08/18 02:40 PM
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Said without a smiley, TimM_980?

Can I just kindly, gently, politely and wistfully suggest that it does not sit very well, somehow, for a person to join this forum a few days ago, post one question, get replies from some of the most experienced piano people around (I don't mean myself) and then to recount the disparaging comment of an un-named person that half the information in here is terrible.

It is not.

Experienced people have different views on things, and that is fine - many aspects of piano work are open to discussion.

You have joined here, and had the benefit of some very informed opinions.

I now challenge your source to identify himself or herself and state which of the advice that you have been offered here is "terrible". Rather as Joe suggests above.

Re: Tuning Piano to 432 from 440 [Re: TimM_980] #2789114
12/08/18 03:10 PM
12/08/18 03:10 PM
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You have never said why you wanted your piano to be at A432. You were asked at the beginning of the post. The reasons why others in the past who request this tuning are based on pseudoscience and stupidity. That is why you will not be taken seriously.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
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