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Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: sluk07] #2787503
12/03/18 09:08 PM
12/03/18 09:08 PM
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I read Wuthwring Heights recently and just couldn’t get into it. Did like Count of Monte Cristo though - one of the best novels I’ve ever read!


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Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: dumka1] #2787508
12/03/18 09:23 PM
12/03/18 09:23 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by dumka1
A lot of Russian classical literature was ruined for Soviet/former Soviet kids as a result of schools teaching them in a very didactic and often overly ideologized way...

Probably you're right about didactic, but maybe the ideology, less so. When you are a kid, you don't think so much in terms of ideology. It's just the framework within which you are raised. It's adults that start to think critically and concern themselves with ideology. My wife never mentioned to me the ideology as the reason for her hatred of all-things Tolstoy. I think even a bigger factor is just that kids in their teens are not mentally ready for Tolstoy and if you try to pour him into their brains, this can cause a bad reaction...


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: sluk07] #2787523
12/03/18 09:48 PM
12/03/18 09:48 PM
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Posts: 2,338
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Back OT....

Originally Posted by sluk07
I guess what is underlying this is the ultimate question - can anyone reach a decent standard of piano playing just by throwing practice and lessons at it
I would say no. Practice and lessons (imo) are necessary but not sufficient. But if you add to those (1) time working at the process and (2) a love of music, then, yes, imo, playing at a decent level can be accomplished. Maybe not diploma level, but you'll be able to tackle a heck of a lot of good music.

Time is the tough part. It takes a long time, and there is always more to learn. That's why you have to figure out a way to enjoy and/or get satisfaction out of the process. I started from scratch way, way older than you and after six years (two self-taught, four with teacher), I'm just now feeling like I can find my way around the keyboard. I love the challenge of it, I the sense of accomplishment, and most of all, I love making music under my own steam.


[Linked Image]
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: Stubbie] #2787527
12/03/18 09:57 PM
12/03/18 09:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Back OT....

Originally Posted by sluk07
I guess what is underlying this is the ultimate question - can anyone reach a decent standard of piano playing just by throwing practice and lessons at it
I would say no. Practice and lessons (imo) are necessary but not sufficient. But if you add to those (1) time working at the process and (2) a love of music, then, yes, imo, playing at a decent level can be accomplished. Maybe not diploma level, but you'll be able to tackle a heck of a lot of good music.

I agree with #1 but disagree with #2. I don't think #2 is required to become good, or at least I hope not. Very little of the music I am playing now as part of my piano lessons do I even "like," not to mention "love." Some of it, I even actively dislike. As another example, I mentioned in another thread someone I hung out with at the university who was a vocal performance major studying opera who never listened to opera in her down time - interpret that as you will. If you are not talking about what we play specifically, but music in general, then I'd probably at least half agree. I still think it is possible to become good without "loving" music. But I will agree that short of parental pressure, it would be mysterious why someone who didn't like music would be pushed into becoming good at it.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: sluk07] #2787554
12/03/18 11:05 PM
12/03/18 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sluk07

I'll stop there because I'm rambling but I would appreciate some (kind) advice as to whether these are problems everyone encounters


Hmeh. Going on 40 years at this thing and I still wonder "what's the point" sometimes. It don't get easier but the definition of easy changes.

Paraphrasing/reinventing a haiku I heard long ago:

After great struggle
I reached the mountain's summit
And found only clouds


Whizbang
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Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: Richrf] #2787556
12/03/18 11:30 PM
12/03/18 11:30 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,794
New York City
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Originally Posted by Richrf
Millions upon millions quit for the same reason you are contemplating it. They were trying to achieve a goal rather than enjoy the music.
But I don't think those two are mutually exclusive. Someone could enjoy the music and still have goals of playing difficult repertoire.

Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2787559
12/03/18 11:38 PM
12/03/18 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Back OT....

Originally Posted by sluk07
I guess what is underlying this is the ultimate question - can anyone reach a decent standard of piano playing just by throwing practice and lessons at it
I would say no. Practice and lessons (imo) are necessary but not sufficient. But if you add to those (1) time working at the process and (2) a love of music, then, yes, imo, playing at a decent level can be accomplished. Maybe not diploma level, but you'll be able to tackle a heck of a lot of good music.

I agree with #1 but disagree with #2. I don't think #2 is required to become good, or at least I hope not. Very little of the music I am playing now as part of my piano lessons do I even "like," not to mention "love." Some of it, I even actively dislike. As another example, I mentioned in another thread someone I hung out with at the university who was a vocal performance major studying opera who never listened to opera in her down time - interpret that as you will. If you are not talking about what we play specifically, but music in general, then I'd probably at least half agree. I still think it is possible to become good without "loving" music. But I will agree that short of parental pressure, it would be mysterious why someone who didn't like music would be pushed into becoming good at it.
I meant music in general. I'm not sure you could become 'good' without having a deep affection for music. You might be adequate at playing the notes and even have technical skills, but if your heart wasn't in it, it would fall flat.

As you say, as adults we must have at least some affection for piano music in order to choose to listen to and learn to play the piano. We get to call the shots. smile


[Linked Image]
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: sluk07] #2787591
12/04/18 02:57 AM
12/04/18 02:57 AM
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To the OP.

I feel very much like you do.

Apart the occasional satisfying moment I would say that 70~80% of the time, I end my practice in a worst mood than I started. And do not even get me started on lessons.

What I am starting realizing is that this is not a piano related problem. I, for example, get in the same foul mood with tennis and almost any other endeavor that I care about. I do not have a solution for me, therefore I am not even attempting to give a solution to you. I guess I just have a question. Will quitting piano make you really feel better or do you see yourself getting into this mind set again even if you gave up piano?

Eventually you will start a new hobby, will start caring about it, will compare yourself with people better than you and wonder why you are not at their level yet. I for example got into ski grades just because of that.

So you see, piano -> grades. Tennis -> matches. Ski -> grades. Apparently not everyone finds the journey satisfying enough unless you have concrete proof that you are indeed going somewhere.

If you happen to be anyway similar to me, I suggest you stick with piano, that is a wonderful hobby, and you/we try to have a better approach at it.

My 2 cents.

Last edited by lunobili; 12/04/18 02:58 AM.
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: dumka1] #2787597
12/04/18 03:29 AM
12/04/18 03:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 178
England
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Originally Posted by dumka1

Don't want to hijack the thread, but thanks. A lot of Russian classical literature was ruined for Soviet/former Soviet kids as a result of schools teaching them in a very didactic and often overly ideologized way...


Same thing here - my degree in French literature stopped me reading French at all.
BUT it didn't stop me loving to read English.

Wonder if the OP should switch to the French Horn?


Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?
Roland FP30 in white
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: lunobili] #2787636
12/04/18 07:26 AM
12/04/18 07:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 45
Manchester, UK
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For a different viewpoint...

I used to be a gamer and a bit of a completionist. I would aim to finish games 100%, and I did so for many of the big titles. However this took a lot of time and I would get frustrated at anything that didn't work towards the end goal. I would get annoyed, angry even, if the time I spent was not conducive to the end goal. I found that the longer this went on, and we're talking years, the less I would actually enjoy playing the games but I carried on anyway because the reaching the 100% figure kind of made it worthwhile. That was until I made a conscious decision to just stop. If it isn't enjoyable then what am I doing wasting my life on it? Playing with friends was great and we had a good time but there's other things to do with my life. Even now I will buy games but just can't get in to them the same, the're a sinkhole for time and unless you commit the required time you don't progress.

Piano is different, there is no 100%, no real end goal where you can say you've done it. There'll always be another level, another piece, another interpretation. What you do have is lots of short term goals, mastering a section, finishing a piece, memorising it and retaining it. Once piece doesn't work towards an end goal and every performance of it is different. You don't get the instant gratification but you can get continual enjoyment.

I wonder if the OP is like I was, seeing Grade 8 as "right I've done it, that's piano mastered, what's next". Even when you reach that goal after all that effort, you still aren't satisfied because you move on to the next challenge or the next level. It takes a change in mindset rather than a change in hobby, and if you can't change you mindset and you're not enjoying what you're doing then you have to walk away.

Another little insight...

I love photography but a few years ago I took up a course at the Open College of the Arts. Distance learning. I paid good money to enrol as an adult learner. I did the course for about 3 months and then quit because the time I was spending completing projects was specifically to complete the project and not because I wanted to take photos. I was taking photos of things I wasn't interested in and because someone else was telling me to do it. The course would have made me technically a better photographer if I stuck at it, but it became a chore. I still take photos and research things myself when I want to learn, but I do it my way.

Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: leemeadowcroft] #2787764
12/04/18 02:49 PM
12/04/18 02:49 PM
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Posts: 591
Greater Chicago Metro Area
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EPW Offline
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Originally Posted by leemeadowcroft


I wonder if the OP is like I was, seeing Grade 8 as "right I've done it, that's piano mastered, what's next". Even when you reach that goal after all that effort, you still aren't satisfied because you move on to the next challenge or the next level. It takes a change in mindset rather than a change in hobby, and if you can't change you mindset and you're not enjoying what you're doing then you have to walk away.



I have to agree with this. I came back to piano in my early thirty's after reaching grade 8 level in my late teens. I realized piano would not be a career choice and left it behind. But Piano never left me and now I pick what I want to learn and what interest me. The thing is Piano is something you can always improve on. I had to come up with some introduction and fill for some Taize music several years ago. My interpretation got the music director interested to see what he could come up with. Between the two of us we had come up with several different interpretations to use depending on the service and who was leading worship.

I wouldn't give up the piano but slow down and enjoy the journey. I'm in my fifties now and all the time I have people come up to me and say they wish they never gave up piano lessons.
So what it takes you a longer to reach the harder music. There is so much great music out there at the intermediate level to enjoy. Also I have to say this, my Aunt got rheumatoid arthritis in her fifties and could only play the slower pieces. She still enjoyed playing them and started to look at some of my pop music with chord charts and see what see could come up with. It was cool for me to see that my Aunt wanted to keep learning.

my 2 cents of advice smile


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: EPW] #2787811
12/04/18 05:20 PM
12/04/18 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by EPW
Originally Posted by leemeadowcroft


I wonder if the OP is like I was, seeing Grade 8 as "right I've done it, that's piano mastered, what's next". Even when you reach that goal after all that effort, you still aren't satisfied because you move on to the next challenge or the next level. It takes a change in mindset rather than a change in hobby, and if you can't change you mindset and you're not enjoying what you're doing then you have to walk away.



I have to agree with this. I came back to piano in my early thirty's after reaching grade 8 level in my late teens. I realized piano would not be a career choice and left it behind. But Piano never left me and now I pick what I want to learn and what interest me. The thing is Piano is something you can always improve on. I had to come up with some introduction and fill for some Taize music several years ago. My interpretation got the music director interested to see what he could come up with. Between the two of us we had come up with several different interpretations to use depending on the service and who was leading worship.

I wouldn't give up the piano but slow down and enjoy the journey. I'm in my fifties now and all the time I have people come up to me and say they wish they never gave up piano lessons.
So what it takes you a longer to reach the harder music. There is so much great music out there at the intermediate level to enjoy. Also I have to say this, my Aunt got rheumatoid arthritis in her fifties and could only play the slower pieces. She still enjoyed playing them and started to look at some of my pop music with chord charts and see what see could come up with. It was cool for me to see that my Aunt wanted to keep learning.

my 2 cents of advice smile


I play piano past ten years started around 22 , im mostly self tiahft taught, but I’m not sure if we have grade system that teachers follow around where I live.
What is the student able to do with each grade level, I.e is grade 8 someone who can sight read or play new stuff that is hard without much practice etc ,,???

I never understood , and is it confined to classical music?


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: Jitin] #2787816
12/04/18 05:36 PM
12/04/18 05:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,038
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Jitin
I’m not sure if we have grade system that teachers follow around where I live.

I'd be surprised. ABRSM gives exams all over the world including China.

Originally Posted by Jitin
What is the student able to do with each grade level, I.e is grade 8 someone who can sight read or play new stuff that is hard without much practice etc ,,???

See this.

Originally Posted by Jitin
and is it confined to classical music?

No.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: sluk07] #2787817
12/04/18 05:43 PM
12/04/18 05:43 PM
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Posts: 276
48-49 High Street (WI, USA)
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I'd be curious to hear what the OP decides after all our excellent advice. smile


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Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: sluk07] #2787834
12/04/18 06:21 PM
12/04/18 06:21 PM
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Jitin Offline
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Who is OP?


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: Jitin] #2787836
12/04/18 06:30 PM
12/04/18 06:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
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48-49 High Street (WI, USA)
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Originally Posted by Jitin
Who is OP?

"Original Poster"


Decent upright bassist, aspiring decent pianist
Casio PX-160, Casio CDP-130
Roland KC-80
Pianoteq 6 Stage (used with Pearl MalletStation)
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2787851
12/04/18 08:16 PM
12/04/18 08:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 177
Long Island, NY
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Jitin
I’m not sure if we have grade system that teachers follow around where I live.

I'd be surprised. ABRSM gives exams all over the world including China.

Originally Posted by Jitin
What is the student able to do with each grade level, I.e is grade 8 someone who can sight read or play new stuff that is hard without much practice etc ,,???

See this.

Originally Posted by Jitin
and is it confined to classical music?

No.

I like this list better which is more detailed by composer...there is so much variety between level 6/7 and 8.

https://www.pianostreet.com/piano_music/download_1/sheet_1.php


~~~~~~~
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1. Brahms Intermezzo Op 118/2
2. Beethoven Sonata Op 2/1 (1st mvmnt)
Working on:
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3. Misc nocturnes/Liszt Liebestraume 3
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Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: AssociateX] #2787861
12/04/18 09:07 PM
12/04/18 09:07 PM
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Are people who go through abrsm required to learn all these pieces?


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: Jitin] #2787864
12/04/18 09:19 PM
12/04/18 09:19 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Jitin
Are people who go through abrsm required to learn all these pieces?

Someone doing ABRSM or who has done it should answer, but as I recall, for each of the 8 grades, it is in general, three pieces, scales and arpeggios, sight-reading, and aural tests. Something like that.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Help - advice required - quit or persevere? [Re: Jitin] #2787869
12/04/18 09:57 PM
12/04/18 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jitin
Are people who go through abrsm required to learn all these pieces?

No, the current requirements are here for each grade:

https://gb.abrsm.org/fileadmin/user_upload/syllabuses/pianoSyllabusComplete17.pdf

Candidates have to choose a piece from each of List A, B and C. And of course, the scales & arpeggios and aural skills and sight-reading.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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