Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Should the U.S. abandon piano manufacturing?

This is a very interesting thread so I thought I'd chime in:

The off-shoring of not only manufacturing but also service jobs (I'm in IT) is out of control. The Western desire for CHEAP everything is driving foreign economies (primarily China and India) like never before. We happily do this to the detriment of our own economies, and employment.

I had a wake up call a couple of years ago, as I watched my own industry being dismantled and off-shored which resulted in many colleagues being without jobs. Because of this I've made some decisions on how my money will be spent:

1) I refuse to work for a company that participates in, or encourages the off-shoring of ANY positions. (Yes I've actually turned down a job because of this)

2) All my investments and savings have been brought in to my own country. I refuse to invest in either a foreign country or in companies who's salaries are payed in foreign countries. For exmample I had a significant stake in Dell until they announced that several thousand positions in the US would be sent to India,.... Not with my money Mr Dell, and BTW I will not be buying any of your equipment agian.

3) I refuse to shop in stores that carry goods primarily manufactured in foreign countries "WAL MART!!! Why would anyone shop there??? It would be easier to just send a cheque to the government of China. I'm only half kidding with that last statement. "

4) I purchase most of my food from local growers and ranchers, with the exception of produce that wouldn't otherwise be available.

5) My current car is a 97 Camero Z28 which was manufactured in Quebec and still runs like great with over 300K KM on the engine. My next car will also me manufactured in Canada (I don't care which brand is on the bumper).

6) I now look at everything I purchase. If I can find a product made in Canada, I'll buy that first, then USA made then Mexico, finally Europe. Unfortunately some products must be purchased from other countries (electronics for example) but I try to keep these to products that are limited to those regions.


My point is that it is all well and good to complain about the loss of manufacturers of Musical Instruments, Cars, Clothing, etc, etc. but only we have the ability to change it.

Not everyone is in a financial position that affords them to be as selective as I am, but that doesn't me that the North American consumer should completely shop without conscience. Use your buying dollars wisely especially for the the next generation!!

OK, I'm done ranting. Time to get of the soapbox and make room for someone else.

Rodney

Let alone the explosive death trap known as the Pinto!

If I could afford an American-made piano, such as a Steinway, or M & H, I'd be more than happy to buy one. Sadly cars are a whole 'nother ball game.

Just about everything you said is wrong. I don't know that Ford KNEW about rollovers. Everyone knew even back then that SUVs are more prone to rollovers, but lets leave that one.

Pickup trucks have gained 2000 pounds since the 90's. Wow, that's pretty amazing. If that were the case, which it is not, why on earth would they add 2000 pounds if there was nothing was gained? Maybe they just like the idea their pick-up trucks can kill people? I don't know what you are thinking.

Ford isn't known for quality - that's somewhat of a myth. Looking at the latest Consumer Reports reader survey that goes back several years, 18 cars are rated. Two of the 18 have below average reliability. All the others, 16, have above average reliability - and I'm talking in individual categories.

GM's solution for safety is to put high beams on? Are you talking about daytime running lights. Number one, they run at a lower wattage than high-beams. Number two, the insurance companies seem to agree with GM and anyone else with daytime running lights on their cars. They don't give discount "just because".

About the Camaro, sorry to burst your bubble, but it was one of the vehicles that scored the highest in frontal and off-set crash tests - those were the only tests being conducted at the time. I never heard anything about the Blazer being unsafe.

Most automakers do not care about the environment. Not because they don't care, but because it adds cost to their vehicles.

Derick

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Derick,

Crash tests don't matter. Vehicle death statistics do. Look it up. I did.

Explorer rollovers... yes, several internal Ford documents were released, and they DID know it was going to have problems. They didn't care... they wanted them built on the Ranger assembly line. They suggested the ridiculously low tire pressure to compensate for a very poor design. FACT.

Chevy Blazer - highest vehicle death per mile traveled in the last NHTSA report. FACT.

Everything I said about the F-150 gaining a bunch of weight and height yet not having more capacity, headroom, or towing capacity, is true. I know this because I looked it up on Edmunds.com. FACT.

Before you decide to argue with me, you better get your FACTs straight.

Oh, and I don't care how you "think" GM is using DRLs now and in the past. All I know is, in my CAR I'm constantly blinded... even in the daytime, by some big oversized junk behind me.

I do agree that it isn't the labor force at fault, it's management. The average LOSS of each GM vehicle ($2500)is higher than the total labor input of the vehicle.

I doubt you would have this debate in, say, France. They buy mainly French cars. They support their weak industries with subsidies (to cries of foul from fellow Europeans) and have an unashamedly nationalistic and patriotic attitude. Good for them, I say. Much teh same applies to Italy. America (and Britain) could learn from this.

I am in Derick's camp here. (Actually I cant beleive I am saying this. We used to fall out :-))

Adrian

CarWorld?
EconomicsWorld?
SubsidyWorld?

I don't care to visit those worlds.

Crash tests DO matter. One very large component of vehicle death statistics is the driver. More people do tend to die in Camaro's as their drivers are primarily young males. Does that make the car unsafe or the driver? The same questions apply to the Blazer.

As I said, I didn't know if Ford knew about the rollovers. You say they did, fine, I believe you.

Since you know so much about pick-ups, please explain how a pick-up truck could gain 2000 pounds and not gain anything the consumer typically wants - more room, more towing capacity. What exactly comprised the bulk of this enormous weight gain?

I suggest you have your eyes checked. DRL's don't bother me at all. In fact, I've never heard of any "blinding" complaint until yours.

Derick

Why would they gain weight? Because truck owners want to look macho.

Do you think they really needed extra ground clearence? No.

Do you think it's more convenient having a bedside (whatever, the side) so tall you can't even reach in and grab something out of the back? No.

How about having to lift things several inches higher than before. No, that's not convenient.

But hey, you look super cool in your giant F-150 that you commute to your office job in. Makes you a man.

WHO GIVES A RAT'S RUMP!!!!

C'mon guys, can we get back to the question at hand? You know...pianos...

The american consumer demands low cost items like what Walmart and even Costco sells, but gets upset when the subject of making in China comes up. We can't have it both ways, if China did not make almost everything, we would not have the Walmarts and Costco prices. A pair of shoes that cost $15.00 at Walmart will now cost over $50.00. if made in this country. Also the reason why Toyota can make better cars in this country is because they insisted on NO UNIONS. The Unions have ruined the airline industry as well as the auto industry. Why do you think quality airlines like Singapore airlines, Cathay Pacific and other overseas carriers, have record profits, can replace their intire fleet of planes every 5 years and still give good service? The reason is they don't pay their CEOs millions of dollars, the pilots are happy with much smaller paychecks and they are not at the mercy of Unions. If the U.S airlines and auto industry can do business the way of Toyota U.S and the overseas airline carriers, then everyone will be better off. Getting back to Pianos, I think the Chinese made pianos will eventually take over most of the Piano manufactures. It is just a matter of time. I am done now!

Extra ground clearance and a taller truck does not explain a 2000 lb weight gain.

Derick

I drive a Baldwin and it's never rolled over on me, not even once. Larry

That's probably because the castors are under inflated.

I have stayed out of this discussion, and i may return to that turtle shell shortly. I find this sort of ventilating very difficult to participate in.

Let's take the steel industry as a great example of industrial policy. Most estimates of the help the US has given to the steel industry over the years (usually through import tariffs that raise the price of steel to users) suggest that the policy does save jobs "in the steel industry" but not in the economy overall. Those estimates show that each job saved cost other Americans between 150,000 and 250,000 ANNUALLY. How many poor people could have been decently educated for that? How many poor people could have had decent health care for that?

We can certainly imitate economic nationalists, but we do so at a cost to ourselves. Every time we take resources to subsidize a particular firm or industry, and those resources could have been used in a different way to generate more value at world prices we impoverish ourselves.

The demagoguery surrounding outsourcing has been just about nauseating to me. This is a complicated and nuanced issue that has been turned into one cheap shot after another by people who haven't bothered to look at the facts. This is the Lou Dobbs effect. If you buy the claptrap about all the jobs going to India you'd think there are no more jobs in computers and IT in the US. Go to the department of labor website and look at the detailed employment statistics for the US. The bulk of the very small decline in the computer sector was due to the bursting of the high tech bubble. Jobs in that sector actually have grown. Yes, there are fewer call sector jobs, but there are more systems jobs etc etc. And if you think that by somehow banning outsourcing (a legal impossibility) you'd save all those call sector jobs then you have another thing coming. At US wages, the alternative to hearing an Indian accent at the other end of the line isn't hearing an American. It's probably hearing something like "for questions about where to plug your cables, press 1 ...etc" Automation is what would have happened instead.

Lastly, how many of you have seriously thought about 'what goes around comes around." What do those Indians earning 20K for answering phones spend their money on. Actually, lots of US products ....from Dell, IBM, Texas Instruments etc.

A few years ago Samsung developed a new form of television. It's called DLP, or digital light processing. They're now a major player on the market against Sony and all the other japanese makers. At the heart of every Samsung television is a very ingenious set of chips and micromirrors designed and produced by Texas Instruments in the US. This is called outsourcing, or rather, insourcing.

pardon a second "lastly." A number of you have complained about the deindustrialization of the US. This is not a particular american failing. Even in nationalist Europe, the percentage of the population that works in manufacturing is declining, just as in the US. The same phenomenon is true in China! Productivity growth is more rapid in manufacturing than in services. This is one reason for the shift in jobs away from manufacturing, and this reason dominates any effect from international markets. the other is that as people get wealthier (from higher productivity in manufactured goods) their demand shifts toward services. these are the basic facts of life in a post-industrial society.

There is no doubt that the distribution of income has changed over the last 30 years. people with a college degree or more have experienced a great increase in their standard of living. People with a high school degree are worse off. Again, any contributory effect from international trade has been small. this is primarily a function of technological change that has increased the demand for highly educated labor. If we had banned outsourcing and all of international trade we would have seen the exact same effect.

If you want to solve this problem, fix the damned Amercian school system.

Attempting to move this thread from cars back to the subject of pianos....

To all those b*tching that this thread isn't about pianos, the facts are you can't pose the question FTP did without expecting the subject of globalization to come up. No one, except for us piano geeks, would blink if all the pianos made in the USA were suddenly made in China. But the entire country would MORE than just blink if that happened with the auto industry.

Nevertheless, when/if China can produce pianos as good as S&S, M&H, etc... for 1/5th the cost, there won't be any decision making process; the Chinese will take over.

Can you imagine how ticked off those artists who signed with Steinway will be???!!!

Derick

LOL at underinflated castors!

Either Gryphon is not monitoring this thread or he's typing-up a very long response.

Maybe he's stuck somewhere with a flat castor.