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Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2779919
11/10/18 06:46 PM
11/10/18 06:46 PM
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Lady Bird Online content
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The Sauter 130 piano has a wonderful singing tone .I must say it has big sound and tonal possibilities like a small grand .As you say it has the double repetition mechanism which gives similar action responses to a grand piano .I say similar to a grand but not exactly the same .Rapid note repetition is better than many other uprights I have played however .There is an overall balance in response in these pianos which makes the piano a delight to play .
The price however caused us a a few hesitations .However like anything that is more expensive there are more responsibilities and we have recently had to buy a dehumidifier for the piano to keep the piano sounding good .

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Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: Retsacnal] #2779922
11/10/18 07:05 PM
11/10/18 07:05 PM
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MarkL Offline
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal

The Fandriches are business people, and entrepreneurs. If you haven't already done so, you might want to contact them directly and see if they'll ship a Fandrich action directly to you (or your tech).

Now that's a good idea.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2779924
11/10/18 07:23 PM
11/10/18 07:23 PM
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The grass is always green (on the other side of the ocean). Americans have an illusion that German pianos (and cars) are better. Europeans seem to want American things. Buy local and invest all the extra shipping and duty cost into a better instrument.

Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oldMH] #2779946
11/10/18 09:25 PM
11/10/18 09:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,764
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Retsacnal Online content

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Retsacnal  Online Content

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Originally Posted by oldMH
Americans have an illusion that German pianos (and cars) are better. Europeans seem to want American things. Buy local and invest all the extra shipping and duty cost into a better instrument.

I love my German car. Btw, it was built in America. The world is too complex to fit these clumsy stereotypes. Why should the OP pay extra for something he doesn't even want? I applaud his courage to ignore artificial boundaries and seek out what he does want!


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: Retsacnal] #2779965
11/11/18 01:17 AM
11/11/18 01:17 AM
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Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
[...] The world is too complex to fit these clumsy stereotypes. Why should the OP pay extra for something he doesn't even want? I applaud his courage to ignore artificial boundaries and seek out what he does want!


But how do you know he wants one (an American piano)? Unless there's yet something to tell, he hasn't even played the (American) piano with the Fandrich action he thinks he wants.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: BruceD] #2780012
11/11/18 07:45 AM
11/11/18 07:45 AM
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Posts: 80
Norway
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oivavoi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
[...] The world is too complex to fit these clumsy stereotypes. Why should the OP pay extra for something he doesn't even want? I applaud his courage to ignore artificial boundaries and seek out what he does want!


But how do you know he wants one (an American piano)? Unless there's yet something to tell, he hasn't even played the (American) piano with the Fandrich action he thinks he wants.

Regards,


Ok, some background: I've played the piano daily since I was six. I'm now 38. I'm not a professional, but playing the piano and making music (jazz and pop) are essential ingredients in my life. I've played on a fair amount of very good uprights and grands, including grands and uprights that cost many times what I make a year. There is huge variation, of course. But my clear take-away from my piano experiences is that I generally enjoy playing a grand much more than I enjoy playing an upright. This usually applies even when the upright is sonically superior to the grand, which is often the case when a good and large upright competes against a baby grand of average quality.

For my type of playing - which is geared towards improvisation, expressiveness and experimentation, more than towards classical perfection - I have found that the feel and response of the action is of supreme importance. I want the piano to respond immediately to even the minutest changes in input and touch. In this regard, most uprights are at a disadvantage compared to most grands, simply because of the law of gravity. If I had the space, I would immediately get a grand, even a baby grand of average quality. But we don't have the space. There's just no way we can fit a grand in our cramped living room. So what to do?

Because we recently moved out of the old apartment block we've lived in for the last years, I can finally exchange my digital hybrid for a proper acoustic. I've spent the last months playing different kinds of uprights. Yes, some uprights have an action that is much better than others. But most of them still can't compete with a grand for me, action-wise. The only upright I've played which "did it" for me - which I think is an instrument I could live happily with for 30 years - was the aforementioned Sauter. This was not due to the unique sonic signature of that piano, but rather the responsiveness of the action. But alas, that Sauter is way too expensive for me. After some searches, I found out that the upright action which almost universally gets praised more than any other is the Fandrich vertical action. Every single review I've read states that this action is more responsive than other upright actions (haven't read any comparisons with the Sauter action though).

This gives me quite a lot of confidence that an upright with a Fandrich action will satisfy me. Can I be sure? No. But given my experience with the uprights and grands I've already played, and the rather unanimous views of people who have played on a Fandrich, I feel reasonably confident in my assesment. The question then becomes how I can get something I will be able to afford.

That said, there are obviously valid reasons for being wary of buying and shipping a piano privately from overseas. The idea of getting only the action, and getting it installed on another piano locally, seems like a very good idea. If it's possible, that is - will check with the Fandrich people.

Hope that clarified my approach to this! smile

Last edited by oivavoi; 11/11/18 07:52 AM.

Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2780097
11/11/18 12:28 PM
11/11/18 12:28 PM
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Scotland
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I think you underestimate the difficulty of marrying a Fandrich, or any other replacement action, to a piano that will have been designed to use a different design of action. e.g. my Bl├╝thner Renner action was made specifically for my model. The action brackets, hammer shaft length and angle of the Darrel Fandrich action would have to match the structure of the piano. Of course if Darrel has already a design for a European piano that you might you choose then the marrying process is made simpler. However from the reports I have read setting up a Fandrich action is not simple, probably because the double repetition springs require note by note selection or/and spring tension change.

Most of the classical composers as well as modern ones have owned or been loaned upright pianos. These included Julius Bl├╝thner, Carl Bechstein and Heinrich Engelhard Steinweg (Steinway) uprights none of which had double repetition.

I do not understand your statement "most uprights are at a disadvantage compared to most grands, simply because of the law of gravity" The hammer return speed of a well regulated upright is faster than that of a grand action.

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Bl├╝thner Model A
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: Beemer] #2780109
11/11/18 01:07 PM
11/11/18 01:07 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 80
Norway
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oivavoi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Beemer
I think you underestimate the difficulty of marrying a Fandrich, or any other replacement action, to a piano that will have been designed to use a different design of action. e.g. my Bl├╝thner Renner action was made specifically for my model. The action brackets, hammer shaft length and angle of the Darrel Fandrich action would have to match the structure of the piano. Of course if Darrel has already a design for a European piano that you might you choose then the marrying process is made simpler. However from the reports I have read setting up a Fandrich action is not simple, probably because the double repetition springs require note by note selection or/and spring tension change.

Most of the classical composers as well as modern ones have owned or been loaned upright pianos. These included Julius Bl├╝thner, Carl Bechstein and Heinrich Engelhard Steinweg (Steinway) uprights none of which had double repetition.

I do not understand your statement "most uprights are at a disadvantage compared to most grands, simply because of the law of gravity" The hammer return speed of a well regulated upright is faster than that of a grand action.

Ian


Good points. I'll certainly not attempt to install a Fandrich action to another piano without being absolutely sure that it will work!

Concerning the action on uprights vs grands: ok, let me rephrase it a bit in subjective and not absolute terms. The action of uprights and grands function in different ways. I have always found that personally I prefer the action of grands - as a general rule, kind of. There might be all kind of expectation bias that goes into that. But still, that's how it is for me. Having said that, great music can be played and created on uprights, of course. I grew up playing on an old Steinway upright, and still think of that instrument with fondness.

Last edited by oivavoi; 11/11/18 01:08 PM.

Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2780678
11/13/18 03:02 PM
11/13/18 03:02 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 80
Norway
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oivavoi Offline OP
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Norway
Update on my piano buying journey. Yesterday I had the chance to try out the Steingraeber 130 upright, with their proprietary magnet-based SFM action. OH. MY. GOODNESS. This is by far the best upright I've ever tried. Nothing else comes close. I would also rank this upright over most of the grands I've tried to date. Just mindblowing.

Way way way out of my financial league, unfortunately... But: It confirms my hunch that untraditional upright actions that imitate the action of a grand is what I want. I've yet to try out Seiler's upright action, which also attempts to do this... But I'm not discouraged from trying to search out such a grand-imitating upright that I can actually afford.


Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2780715
11/13/18 05:47 PM
11/13/18 05:47 PM
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Brittany, France
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I saw an interesting video a while back about a Japanese tech who 'improves' the action of uprights to be closer to that of a grand piano by the addition of springs - one to give faster repeats (pushing the jack? - never sure of terminology - back quickly) and the other to get the hammer away quickly from the string to give a cleaner strike. The video is a bit long (compared to the interesting bit, that is). I wonder if this would give the desired improvements - a lot of springs (well, bits of wire.....), if it's been done before etc.


regards
Pete
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2780737
11/13/18 07:16 PM
11/13/18 07:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
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huaidongxi Offline
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Dr.Lovell's review of the Seiler magnet-based action acceleration for vertical pianos. the option is available on the tallest seiler verticals, built in Germany at a higher price point, or in Java at a significantly lower price point.

www.pianobuyer.com/Articles/Detail/ArticleId/283/The-Vertical-Piano-Is-Not-Dead

Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oldMH] #2780963
11/14/18 02:15 PM
11/14/18 02:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 41
Vienna, Austria
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OE1FEU Offline
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Vienna, Austria
Originally Posted by oldMH
The grass is always green (on the other side of the ocean). Americans have an illusion that German pianos (and cars) are better. Europeans seem to want American things. Buy local and invest all the extra shipping and duty cost into a better instrument.


If, as a European, you travel to the US, then you'll definitely feel that pianos in Central Europe are overall way better in terms of manufacturing quality, maintenance, tuning. And don't get me started on concert technicians in the US compared to Germany or Austria.

Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2780966
11/14/18 02:24 PM
11/14/18 02:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 41
Vienna, Austria
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OE1FEU Offline
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Vienna, Austria
Originally Posted by oivavoi

For my type of playing - which is geared towards improvisation, expressiveness and experimentation, more than towards classical perfection - I have found that the feel and response of the action is of supreme importance. I want the piano to respond immediately to even the minutest changes in input and touch. In this regard, most uprights are at a disadvantage compared to most grands, simply because of the law of gravity. If I had the space, I would immediately get a grand, even a baby grand of average quality. But we don't have the space. There's just no way we can fit a grand in our cramped living room. So what to do?



I like your approach, because the action is probably more important to the acoustic result than one might think. I have just had the action of my 1887 Steinway B rebuilt by a true expert in old Steinways - and it made an incredible difference in all regards. Wider dynamic range, better control of dynamics while playing fast, better control of tiered voices in chords etc.

I have recently played a Feurich Model 123, manufactured in Vienna, Austria - and I was blown away by the action and the overall sound of the piano. Definitely the best upright I've ever played and an action that was closer to a grand than I would ever have expected.

Mind you, the rest of the Feurichs, be it grands or uprights, are manufactured in China, but this particular model was designed and is manufactured in Austria. It's around 12.000,- EUR and definitely something you should look into. I'd be surprised if Sauter came anywhere close in your perception after you've played this particular Feurich.

https://www.feurich.com/en/products/vienna-pianos/

The website is actually really helpful in showing the technical background of innovation that went into the design.

Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: OE1FEU] #2781042
11/14/18 07:18 PM
11/14/18 07:18 PM
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Posts: 80
Norway
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oivavoi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU

I have recently played a Feurich Model 123, manufactured in Vienna, Austria - and I was blown away by the action and the overall sound of the piano. Definitely the best upright I've ever played and an action that was closer to a grand than I would ever have expected.

Mind you, the rest of the Feurichs, be it grands or uprights, are manufactured in China, but this particular model was designed and is manufactured in Austria. It's around 12.000,- EUR and definitely something you should look into. I'd be surprised if Sauter came anywhere close in your perception after you've played this particular Feurich.

https://www.feurich.com/en/products/vienna-pianos/

The website is actually really helpful in showing the technical background of innovation that went into the design.


Thank you so much! This instrument actually looks incredibly exciting. Seems truly innovative. Now I need to play one... Might obliterate the need to order a piano from the States!

The only thing I would have liked is a bit more size... 123 cm only gives you so much in terms of fullness of tone and bass response. 125/126 would be good, 128/130 even better. Perhaps they are in the pipeline in the same series? That said, this one might play big for its size!


Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: OE1FEU] #2781154
11/14/18 11:39 PM
11/14/18 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU

If, as a European, you travel to the US, then you'll definitely feel that pianos in Central Europe are overall way better in terms of manufacturing quality, maintenance, tuning. And don't get me started on concert technicians in the US compared to Germany or Austria.


A sweeping statement like this made me feel inferior that I am not an European, and I do not have the fortune to own a Central European piano serviced by an Austrian or German technician. Fortunately, playing my pianos does not make me feel as such.

I assumed you have played enough pianos on either side of the Atlantic to make such a statement. From concerts I have attended in our local puny venue, aka Strathmore, where both Hamburg D and NY D are stocked, I have seen an equal split of instruments being used. Unfortunately they were almost all certainly serviced by unworthy American technicians that poor pianists such as Uchida, Grimaud, and Kissin must have suffered greatly. And Sir Andras Schiff must have enjoyed his pain on the poor 280VC that he keeps coming back.

A while ago I posted a blind test of my two acoustic pianos' sound. By a small margin my badly made NY Steinway A was favored by readers here, including European ones. My Hamburg B's tuning was not perfect (if such thing exists) at that time due to new strings and humidity swing of the season prior, but mind you that A was about 8 months since the last tuning when the recording was made.

Last edited by Davdoc; 11/14/18 11:40 PM.

1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: Davdoc] #2781166
11/15/18 12:49 AM
11/15/18 12:49 AM
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Vienna, Austria
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OE1FEU Offline
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Originally Posted by Davdoc


A sweeping statement like this made me feel inferior that I am not an European


I apologize, I've got it all wrong.

Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2781175
11/15/18 02:39 AM
11/15/18 02:39 AM
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Kuwait
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I agree with comments above. Taking any piano to Europe is a bit like taking a sandwich to a banquet. There really are a few European brands which are worth trying. I forget the names off hand, and the amount you save on shipping will give you more to spend on the actual instrument


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2781375
11/15/18 03:52 PM
11/15/18 03:52 PM
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North Vancouver
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Lady Bird Online content
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So this particular Feurich 123 is it completely made in Austria ?

Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: Lady Bird] #2781379
11/15/18 03:57 PM
11/15/18 03:57 PM
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Victoria, BC
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
So this particular Feurich 123 is it completely made in Austria ?


The short answer seems to be "Yes".

from Piano Buyer:

There are currently two lines of Feurich instruments on the market. Utilizing a separate production line within the Hailun factory in Ningbo, China, Feurich produces a line of high-quality, affordable uprights and grands distinguished by their strict quality control, the use of European tonewoods, and modern innovations, such as Paulello rust-free music wire. Feurich experts are present in the factory at all times, in order to perform a full quality-control inspection before shipping. In 2015, a new Feurich-designed action and keyboard was introduced for all Feurich uprights. New improvements and design modifications were made on all the instruments; for example, the new Feurich model 179 Dynamic II has a lighter frame and various other modern features, such as an integrated LED lamp.

The second line is made in Vienna, Austria. The first model in this line is the 48" model 123 Vienna upright, designed by the Feurich Vienna team of experts managed by master piano builder Emil Dimitrov and including Stephen Paulello and Clare Pichet. The strung back for this model is made in China by Hailun, but with a new design, more advanced CNC milling, and with Paulello rust-free strings. All other parts are European. The level of detail in the design can be seen in features such as the compensation in the action for the different proportions and leverages required for black and white keys, owing to their different lengths. The Feurich High-Speed KAMM Action, designed by master piano builder Udo Kamm, also features a new, patented system of springs and rollers that enable extremely fast repetition for an upright piano. The pianos are meticulously regulated and voiced in Vienna. The 50" model 128 Vienna, due to enter production in 2017, was designed by Friedrich Steinbauer (original designer from the Feurich factory in Germany) and Jan Enzen-auer, and is based on original Feurich designs.


Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Ship upright from the US to Europe? [Re: oivavoi] #2781388
11/15/18 04:18 PM
11/15/18 04:18 PM
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"[...] The strung back for this model is made in China by Hailun [...]"

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