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Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? #2779247
11/08/18 10:29 AM
11/08/18 10:29 AM
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rach3master Offline OP
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I have recently discovered this odd glitch, and wonder if anyone else has come across it. Very occasionally, let's say maybe 2 times in an 8-hour session, the middle E on my Garritan CFX will inappropriately trigger while I'm playing. It happens so rarely that I barely notice the conditions for it happening, though I suspect it might be happening while I'm playing a chord that includes the E-flat next to it. I cannot reliably reproduce this glitch, so I am not too sure either.

I am using a Novus. I cannot recall encountering this while I was using my N1 with Garritan CFX, so perhaps it's an artifact of the Novus?

Last edited by rach3master; 11/08/18 10:29 AM.
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Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779257
11/08/18 11:00 AM
11/08/18 11:00 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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Sounds very much like a problem with the Novus, probably optical sensing being triggered by neighboring note?


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779281
11/08/18 01:06 PM
11/08/18 01:06 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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E4 is the 64th MIDI note. Sustain is the 64th Control Change event.

Perhaps you have pressed the pedal and the MIDI signal was altered transforming a Control Change to a Note On. (Just 1 bit)

This can be highly probable with cheap MIDI adaptor, or a too long MIDI line. With USB, checksums should avoid this.

If you record yourself with a DAW - let’s say the 60days demo of Reaper - you can read the MIDI events and see what is really received.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779285
11/08/18 01:10 PM
11/08/18 01:10 PM
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This seems like issue with Novus based on your accounts.

You can use free MIDI-OX software to read MIDI events.

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Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779288
11/08/18 01:19 PM
11/08/18 01:19 PM
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To analyze, maybe you should start recording the midi values? I know Pianoteq has an always on recording. Does Garritan have this too? Then you can check the midi value once the glitch happens again.
Of course if it does, and you record in Garritan, then you still don't know if the Novus actually sent the wrong value, or if Garritan changed the value and then recorded the wrong value.
So maybe record with a different app?
Or record directly on the Novus. I assume you have local control off anyway. So for the experiment, you could get into the habit of setting the Novus to sound mode (with local control off) and using the internal recorder on the Novus. You probably will have to stop and restart the recording every now and then, to avoid the internal recording buffer to overflow, but that is ok, as you don't plan to keep the recording anyway. Unless the glitch happens. If it does, save the local recording to a USB stick in midi format and analyze the midi event of the glitched E. If you find a problem there, then you know it happens in the Novus. If you don't find anything, then it either happens during transmission (which admittedly could also be the Novus' fault) or in Garritan.
And then of course there's always the possibility that it's you, playing a mistake. wink

Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: Frédéric L] #2779304
11/08/18 02:11 PM
11/08/18 02:11 PM
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rach3master Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
E4 is the 64th MIDI note. Sustain is the 64th Control Change event.

Perhaps you have pressed the pedal and the MIDI signal was altered transforming a Control Change to a Note On. (Just 1 bit)


Just reading this explanation it sounds very plausible.

Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779327
11/08/18 03:54 PM
11/08/18 03:54 PM
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I play my NV-10 wth Garritan CFX Full almost exclusively, and I can honestly say that I've never run into this issue before. Frederic's explanation makes a lot of sense, but I have to wonder how often bit-errors like this happen to a point where they are noticed and easily reproduced "by hand."

I do get extremely rare but repeatable issues with CFX, including spontaneous cut-out of the right channel (after ~50-100 days of uptime--I've posted about this before on PW). Why? Cosmic rays maybe? Who knows.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779335
11/08/18 04:16 PM
11/08/18 04:16 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Such an explanation doesn't come from my imagination.

See https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5671773
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sustain-pedal-plays-a-E-how-to-fix-it-m2465165.aspx

The first time I have read about it was about a 5$ cable adaptor. If one electronic part is not compliant, the issue may be frequent.

Also, if the sustain pedal of the NV10 is continuous, it will send many events which will make the issue more frequent than with a on/off pedal.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779345
11/08/18 04:45 PM
11/08/18 04:45 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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About spontaneous cut-off, it may be the CPU activity which is too much important. I did have many of them while defragmenting the system disk (not the samples one while playing... I a not that fool wink ). With Windows, you have so much things which happen in background, that it could be hard to predict any time dependent behaviour with a 100% precision. But too much CPU cutting a note must be very rare. I don’t think to notice some in a normal situation. (But I have some memory shortage with a 8GB PC).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 11/08/18 04:53 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779547
11/09/18 01:12 PM
11/09/18 01:12 PM
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Erard Offline
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Well, I have the Novus and I have EXACTLY the same problem - every 4-5 days, more or less it depends, E4 plays by itself (sometimes big and loud) for no reason in the middle of a piece.
I have a long(ish - 5 metres) midi cable hooked to a Babyface pro and only use VSL CFX VST (wow - that's a lot of acronyms...)

I had the same setup before, with the same cable, but with a Yamaha N1 and I NEVER had any problems of any kind.

Maybe it's the cable - but then why this problem wasn't there with the AvantGrand?
I have Win 10 computer with a 5Ghz CoffeeLake I7, 32 gb of memory and the samples are on a very fast NVME drive, so I don't think it's the computer.

The CC64 explanation is probably the right one - but I don't know what can be done about this problem. A midi signal repeater? Does a something like that even exists?

I use a midi cable because I like to play with a very small buffer (64 samples) and the lowest latency possible.


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779549
11/09/18 01:21 PM
11/09/18 01:21 PM
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I like JoBert's suggestion ...
Originally Posted by JoBert
To analyze, maybe you should start recording the midi values?
Perhaps your DAW or other software can do so? I know that Red Dot Forever software can ... and it's free.

If you can do that, then record away ... and when you get that offending E, stop recording and look at the data.

Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: Erard] #2779550
11/09/18 01:22 PM
11/09/18 01:22 PM
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rach3master Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Erard

I have a long(ish - 5 metres) midi cable hooked to a Babyface pro and only use VSL CFX VST (wow - that's a lot of acronyms...)


I have the exact same setup, minus the different VST.

Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779556
11/09/18 01:51 PM
11/09/18 01:51 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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I suppose the Bayface pro to have an high enough quality. Perhaps the voltage/current sink or the timing of the NV10 is on the threshold of compliance and this imply such an issue.

However, there is no real compliance chart in MIDI : « 1. Opto-isolator currently shown is Sharp PC-900 (HP 6N138 or other opto-isolator can be used with appropriate changes.). » we are left to guess if a change is appropriate or not.

The MIDI Specifications limits the cable up to 15m. Here, https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/midi-cable-length-versus-reliability-latency/ a more conservative length limit is 7m (20ft).

It is a pity in the XXI century to have trouble exchanging data at 31250 baud with expensive hardwares.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: MacMacMac] #2779571
11/09/18 03:00 PM
11/09/18 03:00 PM
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Erard Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
If you can do that, then record away ... and when you get that offending E, stop recording and look at the data.


I actually did that, because I wanted to have an example to send to Kawai, just in case.
I kept Pianoteq running in the background every time while I was playing through VST Host - and was able to record the midi with the phantom E4!

So - here, towards the end of the clip, I am surprised by the E4 while reading Pictures at an Exhibition Promenade, and I try to replay the chord a few times since I though I had pressed a wrong note (the E4, in fact, while the piece here is in the tonality of Dflat)
But the note had played by itself and wouldn't stop - and when I leave the keys and release the pedal, the note is still faintly there (because there is no note off for E4?). At the end it's me checking the note to see if it is in fact an E4.

I have no idea how to analyze the file, so here we go:

The midi file
The midi in txt format
Rendered in VSL CFX


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779587
11/09/18 03:32 PM
11/09/18 03:32 PM
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I don't know how to analyze a MIDI file, either.
I was hoping to see the MIDI messages as raw data. That I could analyze.

Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779588
11/09/18 03:36 PM
11/09/18 03:36 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Then this shouldn’t be a ControlChange transformed in E4... or else, we would have seen some pedal (hold event on the text file) at close times. Perhaps a firmware bug.

At MacMacMac : the text file is easy to read +E3 -> note on E3 (the following value is the velocity), -E3 -> note off E3 (with its velocity too), hold -> sustain pedal with its value (127 pressed, 0 depressed... and in between values). The number before each event is the time between this event and the previous one. The unit is 1/960 of quater note. I don’t know the tempo ! Note : it is not a standard notation. You can also load the midi file in Reaper or Cubase and use thr event viewer. But, these DAW may add a note off making all notes having a length... I prefer here to read the text file.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 11/09/18 03:46 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779591
11/09/18 03:53 PM
11/09/18 03:53 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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I have missread the text file (there are e4 at the end). I have just read the commented +e4 at the middle... it is among hold (sustain pedal) events, the value (hexadecimal $64 = 100) is just between the previous hold value and the next one... then the +e4 is a wrongly transmitted sustain (hold) value. We should have received « hold 100 ».

Your file confirm a MIDI transmission issue. One the link, there is only 1 bit wrong.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779593
11/09/18 03:56 PM
11/09/18 03:56 PM
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Frédéric L - I had another look at the txt file, at the point where I wrote the comment, and there are some interesting facts:

The phantom E4 is preceded by a Dsharp4 (i.e. enharmonically an Eflat 4) while playing chords and Rach3master said

Originally Posted by rach3master
I suspect it might be happening while I'm playing a chord that includes the E-flat next to it.


Also there are hold events surrounding it, so the pedal was moving if I'm not mistaken.
Hardware (either electrical on the cable or on the action itself) glitch - or firmware bug?
I'm not sure, but always exactly the same bit changing sign seems to me a little improbable - a transmission problem would change bit here and there and we would see other strange things happening.

So, at this point I believe it's possible it is a firmware bug: you play an Eflat, in a chord, with pedal moving - lots and lots of messages at the same time - and the problem is triggered.

Last edited by Erard; 11/09/18 03:57 PM.

Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779594
11/09/18 04:02 PM
11/09/18 04:02 PM
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I had a different mystery MIDI problem with my Kawai es100 & RME BabyFace interface a few years ago.

Finally discovered that I had clicked "Enable MIDI Control" in TotalMix (RME interface software for Windows) whilst experimenting. So, disabling that (just reset the TotalMix software solved my A5 key mystery.

Maybe try resetting your digital piano to factory. Then try resetting then reinstalling your interface software on the laptop.

Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779595
11/09/18 04:02 PM
11/09/18 04:02 PM
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Well, that text file was cryptic. I show it here in seven columns ... with *** marking the "offending" E4 ...
Code
| +f2 $4E;      |  2;hold  73    |  22;-c#2 $4C;  | 4;hold  52    | 6;hold  57     | 238;+g#2 $4E;  | 1;hold  52     |
| 2;+c#5 $4D;   |  2;hold  79    |  726;+f#5 $54; | 2;hold  47    | 3;hold  63     | 25;+g#3 $4E;   | 2;hold  47     |
| 6;+f3 $53;    |  4;hold  84    |  8;+f#4 $4E;   | 2;hold  41    | 2;hold  68     | 23;+d#5 $59;   | 2;hold  41     |
| 15;+g#4 $59;  |  4;hold  89    |  7;+d#2 $51;   | 2;hold  36    | 2;hold  73     | 7;+d#4 $50;    | 2;+g#3 $5D;    |
| 2;+c#4 $4A;   |  3;hold  95    |  2;+d#5 $4E;   | 1;hold  31    | 6;hold  79     | 8;+c5 $50;     | hold  36       |
| 13;+f4 $50;   |  2;hold  100   |  14;+d#3 $50;  | 4;hold  25    | 1;hold  84     | 15;+g#4 $4C;   | 2;hold  31     |
| 114;hold  5   |  4;hold  105   |  8;+a#4 $4A;   | 2;hold  20    | 2;hold  89     | 62;hold  121   | 2;hold  25     |
| 7;hold  7     |  2;hold  111   |  9;hold  121   | 2;hold  15    | 4;hold  95     | 1;hold  116    | 2;hold  20     |
| 5;hold  10    |  3;hold  121   |  2;hold  116   | 4;hold  10    | 1;hold  100    | 1;hold  111    | 2;+d#4 $54;    |
| 9;hold  15    |  4;hold  on    |  2;hold  111   | 3;hold  7     | 3;hold  105    | 2;hold  105    | 2;hold  10     |
| 9;hold  20    |  86;-g#4 $4C;  |  2;hold  105   | 2;hold  5     | 3;hold  116    | 2;hold  100    | 2;hold  7      |
| 4;hold  25    |  7;-d#4 $4C;   |  2;hold  100   | 2;hold  off   | 2;hold  121    | 2;hold  95     | 1;+g#4 $59;    |
| 7;hold  31    |  16;-c5 $4C;   |  2;hold  95    | 142;hold  7   | 3;hold  on     | 2;hold  84     | 2;+c5 $58;     |
| 6;hold  36    |  75;-d#5 $4C;  |  2;hold  89    | 4;hold  10    | 56;-d#4 $4C;   | 2;hold  79     | 2;hold  off    |
| 5;hold  41    |  2;-d#3 $4C;   |  2;hold  73    | 7;hold  15    | 123;-g#4 $4C;  | 1;hold  73     | 1890;hold  7   |
| 6;hold  47    |  66;-d#2 $4C;  |  1;hold  63    | 6;hold  20    | 45;-c5 $4C;    | 2;hold  68     | 5;hold  10     |
| 2;hold  52    |  622;+f5 $54;  |  2;hold  57    | 7;hold  25    | 45;-d#5 $4C;   | 2;hold  63     | 42;hold  15    |
| 5;hold  57    |  7;+c#5 $4A;   |  2;hold  52    | 2;hold  31    | 1202;-g#2 $4C; | 2;hold  57     | 8;hold  20     |
| 7;hold  63    |  2;+g#4 $55;   |  2;hold  47    | 6;hold  36    | 52;-g#3 $4C;   | 2;hold  52     | 1;hold  25     |
| 4;hold  73    |  6;+c#2 $54;   |  2;hold  41    | 5;hold  41    | 556;+d#5 $4D;  | 2;hold  47     | 6;hold  31     |
| 4;hold  79    |  15;+c#3 $57;  |  2;hold  36    | 2;hold  47    | 15;+d#4 $4A;   | 1;hold  41     | 8;hold  36     |
| 4;hold  84    |  2;+f4 $48;    |  2;hold  31    | 6;hold  52    | 29;+g#2 $48;   | 2;hold  36     | 2;hold  41     |
| 1;hold  89    |  28;hold  121  |  2;hold  25    | 4;hold  57    | 2;+c5 $4A;     | 2;hold  31     | 6;hold  47     |
| 5;hold  95    |  2;hold  116   |  1;hold  20    | 5;hold  63    | 13;+g#3 $45;   | 2;hold  25     | 3;hold  52     |
| 4;hold  100   |  2;hold  111   |  2;hold  15    | 4;hold  68    | 12;hold  116   | 2;hold  20     | 4;hold  57     |
| 4;hold  111   |  2;hold  100   |  2;hold  10    | 2;hold  73    | 2;hold  111    | 1;hold  15     | 6;hold  63     |
| 2;hold  116   |  2;hold  95    |  2;hold  7     | 4;hold  79    | 2;+g#4 $41;    | 2;hold  10     | 4;hold  73     |
| 2;hold  121   |  2;hold  89    |  2;hold  off   | 2;hold  84    | 2;hold  100    | 2;hold  7      | 6;hold  79     |
| 5;hold  on    |  2;hold  84    |  189;hold  5   | 2;hold  89    | 2;hold  95     | 2;hold  5      | 4;hold  89     |
| 85;-f4 $4C;   |  2;hold  79    |  4;hold  7     | 3;hold  95    | 1;hold  89     | 1;hold  off    | 3;hold  95     |
| 51;-c#5 $4C;  |  2;hold  73    |  2;hold  10    | 4;hold  100   | 2;hold  79     | 1167;hold  5   | 4;hold  100    |
| 2;-c#4 $4C;   |  1;hold  68    |  6;hold  15    | 4;hold  105   | 2;hold  73     | 6;hold  7      | 4;hold  105    |
| 56;-f3 $4C;   |  2;hold  63    |  5;hold  20    | 2;hold  111   | 2;hold  68     | 3;hold  10     | 2;hold  111    |
| 29;-f2 $4C;   |  2;hold  52    |  2;hold  25    | 2;hold  116   | 1;hold  63     | 4;hold  15     | 2;hold  116    |
| 8;-g#4 $4C;   |  2;hold  47    |  2;hold  31    | 2;hold  121   | 2;hold  57     | 7;hold  20     | 2;hold  121    |
| 706;+d#5 $55; |  2;hold  41    |  4;hold  36    | 2;hold  on    | 2;hold  52     | 7;hold  25     | 1;hold  on     |
| 23;+d#2 $53;  |  2;hold  36    |  6;hold  41    | 43;-f5 $4C;   | 2;hold  47     | 3;hold  31     | 343;-d#5 $4C;  |
| 7;+d#4 $4A;   |  2;hold  31    |  2;hold  47    | 43;-f4 $4C;   | 1;hold  41     | 5;hold  36     | 8;-c5 $4C;     |
| 8;+c5 $53;    |  2;hold  25    |  3;hold  52    | 29;-f2 $4C;   | 2;hold  36     | 6;hold  41     | 15;-d#4 $4C;   |
| 8;+d#3 $50;   |  1;hold  20    |  2;hold  57    | 15;-g#4 $4C;  | 2;hold  31     | 5;hold  47     | 22;-g#4 $4C;   |
| 7;+g#4 $4A;   |  2;hold  15    |  6;hold  63    | 45;-c#5 $4C;  | 3;hold  20     | 2;hold  52     | 90;-g#2 $4C;   |
| 50;hold  121  |  2;hold  10    |  2;hold  68    | 8;-f3 $4C;    | 3;hold  15     | 5;hold  57     | 7;-g#3 $4C;    |
| 2;hold  116   |  2;hold  7     |  2;hold  73    | 633;+d#5 $50; | 2;hold  10     | 6;hold  63     | 552;+d#5 $60;  |
| 2;hold  105   |  2;hold  5     |  1;hold  79    | 33;hold  121  | 2;hold  7      | 4;hold  73     | 15;+g#2 $65;   |
| 1;hold  100   |  2;hold  off   |  2;hold  84    | 2;hold  116   | 2;hold  5      | 5;hold  79     | 7;+d#4 $5F;    |
| 2;hold  95    |  209;hold  5   |  2;hold  89    | 2;hold  111   | 1;hold  off    | 4;hold  84     | 2;+g#3 $6D;    |
| 2;hold  89    |  6;hold  7     |  4;hold  95    | 1;hold  105   | 743;hold  5    | 2;hold  89     | 6;+c5 $5B;     |
| 2;hold  84    |  3;hold  10    |  2;hold  100   | 2;+d#4 $46;   | 4;hold  7      | 4;hold  95     | 7;+g#4 $59;    |
| 1;hold  79    |  3;hold  15    |  2;hold  105   | 2;+e4 $64;*** | 4;hold  10     | 2;hold  100    | 239;hold  121  |
| 3;hold  73    |  6;hold  20    |  1;hold  111   | 2;hold  95    | 7;hold  15     | 4;hold  105    | 2;hold  116    |
| 1;hold  68    |  6;hold  25    |  2;hold  116   | 1;hold  73    | 5;hold  20     | 2;hold  111    | 1;hold  111    |
| 2;hold  63    |  5;hold  31    |  2;hold  121   | 2;+g#2 $54;   | 6;hold  25     | 2;hold  116    | 2;hold  100    |
| 2;hold  57    |  2;hold  36    |  2;hold  on    | 2;hold  68    | 2;hold  31     | 2;hold  121    | 2;hold  95     |
| 4;hold  52    |  5;hold  41    |  91;-f#4 $4C;  | 2;hold  63    | 5;hold  36     | 2;hold  on     | 2;hold  89     |
| 3;hold  47    |  5;hold  47    |  15;-f#5 $4C;  | 1;+g#3 $58;   | 4;hold  41     | 292;-g#3 $4C;  | 1;hold  84     |
| 4;hold  41    |  4;hold  52    |  8;-a#4 $4C;   | 2;+c5 $4E;    | 2;hold  47     | 2;-g#2 $4C;    | 2;hold  73     |
| 2;hold  36    |  5;hold  57    |  22;-d#5 $4C;  | 3;hold  57    | 4;hold  52     | 193;+g#3 $5D;  | 2;hold  68     |
| 5;hold  31    |  4;hold  63    |  136;-d#3 $4C; | 1;hold  31    | 19;hold  57    | 2;+g#2 $5D;    | 2;hold  63     |
| 6;hold  25    |  2;hold  68    |  22;-d#2 $4C;  | 2;hold  25    | 6;hold  63     | 1074;-d#4 $4C; | 2;hold  57     |
| 3;hold  20    |  2;hold  73    |  502;+c#5 $4C; | 2;hold  20    | 4;hold  68     | 8;-c5 $4C;     | 1;hold  52     |
| 4;hold  15    |  4;hold  79    |  2;+f5 $4E;    | 2;hold  15    | 1;hold  73     | 7;-d#5 $4C;    | 2;hold  36     |
| 4;hold  10    |  4;hold  89    |  5;+f4 $4E;    | 2;hold  10    | 3;hold  79     | 59;-g#4 $4C;   | 2;hold  31     |
| 11;hold  7    |  3;hold  95    |  8;+g#4 $50;   | 1;hold  5     | 1;hold  84     | 51;-g#3 $4C;   | 1;hold  25     |
| 9;hold  5     |  4;hold  100   |  8;+f2 $54;    | 2;hold  off   | 2;hold  89     | 2;-g#2 $4C;    | 2;hold  20     |
| 26;hold  7    |  4;hold  105   |  2;+f3 $53;    | 4;+g#4 $41;   | 4;hold  95     | 619;hold  121  | 2;hold  15     |
| 8;hold  10    |  2;hold  116   |  38;hold  121  | 223;hold  5   | 4;hold  100    | 2;hold  116    | 1;hold  10     |
| 9;hold  15    |  2;hold  121   |  1;hold  116   | 4;hold  7     | 2;hold  105    | 2;+d#5 $59;    | 2;hold  7      |
| 6;hold  20    |  3;hold  on    |  2;hold  111   | 2;hold  10    | 2;hold  111    | 2;hold  111    | 2;hold  off    |
| 5;hold  25    |  114;-f4 $4C;  |  hold  105     | 7;hold  15    | 2;hold  121    | 2;hold  105    | 7532;-d#4 $4C; |
| 8;hold  31    |  90;-g#4 $4C;  |  2;hold  100   | 6;hold  20    | 6;hold  on     | 2;hold  100    | 7;-g#3 $4C;    |
| 5;hold  36    |  58;-f5 $4C;   |  2;hold  95    | 2;hold  25    | 684;-d#4 $4C;  | 2;hold  89     | 8;-d#5 $4C;    |
| 2;hold  41    |  45;-c#5 $4C;  |  2;hold  84    | 3;hold  31    | 8;-d#5 $4C;    | 1;hold  79     | 1;-g#4 $4C;    |
| 6;hold  47    |  414;+g#5 $64; |  2;hold  79    | 6;hold  36    | 15;-c5 $4C;    | 2;hold  73     | 6;-g#2 $4C;    |
| 5;hold  52    |  2;+g#4 $5B;   |  2;hold  73    | 2;hold  41    | 22;-g#4 $4C;   | 2;hold  63     | 8;-c5 $4C;     |
| 4;hold  57    |  242;-g#4 $4C; |  1;hold  63    | 3;hold  47    | 66;-g#3 $4C;   | 2;+g#2 $58;    | 3666;+e4 $31;  |
| 6;hold  63    |  15;-g#5 $4C;  |  2;hold  57    | 4;hold  52    | 22;-g#2 $4C;   | 2;hold  57     | 665;-e4 $4C;   |
| 3;hold  68    |  141;-c#3 $4C;

But when I bring up that MIDI file in MIDI Editor I see this ... with no E4 at all until the final stroke. Am I misinterpreting? Or is there a discrepancy between the TEXT file above and the MIDI file below?[Linked Image]

Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779596
11/09/18 04:07 PM
11/09/18 04:07 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Frédéric L  Online Content
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On the first channel, a ControlChange if B0h (11010000), a NoteOn is 90h (10010000). Then reading a NoneOn instead of a ControlChange is possible, and I have already cited forum question about it.

Here, the file is

33;hold 121
2;hold 116
2;hold 111
1;hold 105
2;+d#4 $46;
2;+e4 $64; //############# probably this is the one ############
2;hold 95
1;hold 73

$64 is equivalent to 100... and hold 100 instead of the +e4 $64 is a very probable play on the NV10. (Just between hold 105 and hold 95). And it has only 1 bit difference.

Why this problem ? I don’t know : a wrong voltage/current sink ? A first 1 in 10010000 too long ?


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779599
11/09/18 04:21 PM
11/09/18 04:21 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Frédéric L  Online Content
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On Reaper, the file is loaded with an E4 lasting until the next E4.

Normaly, a DAW match NoteOn with NoteOff to make a "Note" with a duration. If a NoteOn is not followed by a NoteOff, the next NoteOn or the end of the track is used.

I suppose MIDI Editor has trouble representing NoteOn with no associated NoteOff.


NB: With 3 sensors keyboard, it is normal to have multiple NoteOn before a NoteOff.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779600
11/09/18 04:21 PM
11/09/18 04:21 PM
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Erard Offline
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Erard  Offline
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@MacMacMac - very interesting.
But, I rendered the same midi file with Pianoteq and the E4 is definitely there...
Like Frédéric L said - the DAW probably corrects the issue because of the missing note off (no E key has been released - because no E key has been pressed!)

@Frédéric L - I agree that it is a flipped bit - but since the problem seems to be repeatable - a firmware bug seems to me more probable. At least this is my hunch - I could certainly be wrong.


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779601
11/09/18 04:26 PM
11/09/18 04:26 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Frédéric L  Online Content
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Yes, who knows ?

I was inclined to think of the flipped bit because it has been seen (especially with cheap MIDI adaptor which is not the case here)... but other causes are possible too.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779605
11/09/18 04:47 PM
11/09/18 04:47 PM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Frédéric L  Online Content
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Perhaps the issue would disappear with a 30€ MIDI adaptor built differently from the babyface... or else the USB port of the NV10.

I have read : " I use a midi cable because I like to play with a very small buffer (64 samples) and the lowest latency possible. ". A MIDI cable imply 1ms of latency (the MIDI link at 31250 baud) plus the USB link latency. A direct USB link should imply at most 1ms. (USB1 pooling period). If you care about latency, a direct USB link seems more appropriate.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779629
11/09/18 06:50 PM
11/09/18 06:50 PM
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arc7urus Offline
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It is extremely unlikely that a physical communication error produces the same flipped bit in the setup of different users. The flip of a couple of random bits would produce a number of wrong/invalid MIDI messages but also different valid messages. A message with 1-2 random flipped bits would still be a valid in many cases. So, the symptom of a random communication error cannot always be the same message “note/on E4”. The most logical explanation is a software or hardware error on the Kawai NV10 or on the Babyface interface.

Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779700
11/10/18 04:30 AM
11/10/18 04:30 AM
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Alexander Borro Offline
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FWIW

The issue presented very much reminds me of the issue I had with my CA78, but not quite the same. In my case it wasn't just the one key, but random neighbouring notes being triggered without playing them, and no note off as above, it sounds similar what Erard presents in his wav, just a rogue phantom note ( or notes) I didn't play would get triggered, but on very rare occasions. The kawai internal sound were always fine.

Sound mode local control off, bluetooth off etc, several other things I tried at the time, but no joy. with VST and a midi setup it was always the same. Very frustrating. since it would be fine for days, and then I'd get a bout of them on one day, but with any VST, CFX, Ivory pianoteq, both in Cubase and reaper or standalone , and also pianoteq on linux, just to rule the OS.

I am just using MIDI over USB, no a midi cables. My audio interface or onboard sound card turned out to be irrelevant, the outcome was always the same , and also with different USB cables, as well as well as different USB ports( v2, v3 and v3.1 ).

To complicate matters, I got a new computer bundle at the same time as my CA78, motherboard CPU memory etc. so I had all these new gadgets and didn't know whether the piano or the PC build was at fault. Luckily I also had the Casio AP 450 to double check with, the issues never happened over two weeks of trying with this new build and my Casio AP 450.

I got nowhere looking at midi files, by the time it got to MIDI data the damage was already done (as far as I could tell). Hence my linux build where I considered going further since I know how to get under the hood much better. Instead of contemplating such a painful diagnosis, I tried a few simpler things first.

I went back to my old pc build motherboard and used that for several weeks, the issue never occurred with that PC build. Long story short, indeed it turned out not all was well with the USB ports on this new board after testing it some more. In some very rare cases connection would be lost with other peripherals under a stress test. I returned it and got a replacement, same chipset but different model. The original one I bought was out of stock, so I never tested that avenue further, but I picked a similar one, same chipset (z370 series). With the new board the problem never occurred either. I can say that with confidence because I have had it several months now and it has been flawless.

I never spoke much about it on the forum what I went through , except for a few moans and groans at the time. I just went straight to kawai with midi examples, and presented all I had discovered up to that point. I never got far with them, I don't believe they ever looked at it in detail, but to be fair at one point I asked them to wait for a bit to rule what I could find myself on the PC side.

Well, since the motherboard replacement solved the issue I was done with it. The curious side me would have wanted me to know more, but since all was working fine, there was no need to look further, I was really fed up and had enough of it at that point.

Finally I could start enjoying my VSTs again, so I never looked back smile

My feeling is that the issue discussed here has nothing to with the Garritan CFX or any VSTs.

I would pursue it with Kawai support and keep pressing if need be, I am still not convinced there isn't something up with kaway firmware and certain combinations of pc hardware that trigger this issue. At the surface of it would appear that my PC was at fault, but I wouldn't place too much confidence in that. I am just glad it's all over and have a reliable setup with my CA78.

Personally I like the suggestion made by Jobert, recording the midi data on the Novus and at least see if you can determine what happens there, I didn't know you could do that at the time, you know new piano and all that smile With hindsight I should have done that sooner, I never did. Kawai UK never suggested it to me mind you, they should have. I had a long enough exchange of emails with them.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2779711
11/10/18 05:56 AM
11/10/18 05:56 AM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
FWIW The issue presented very much reminds me of the issue I had with my CA78, but not quite the same. In my case it wasn't just the one key, but random neighbouring notes being triggered without playing them, and no note off as above, it sounds similar what Erard presents in his wav, just a rogue phantom note ( or notes) I didn't play would get triggered, but on very rare occasions. The kawai internal sound were always fine.

Sound mode local control off, bluetooth off etc, several other things I tried at the time, but no joy. with VST and a midi setup it was always the same. Very frustrating. since it would be fine for days, and then I'd get a bout of them on one day, but with any VST, CFX, Ivory pianoteq, both in Cubase and reaper or standalone , and also pianoteq on linux, just to rule the OS. (...)


The only common denominator to all the situations being described is the Kawai hardware and software featured on CA78, 98 and NV10. Some of the new models seem to have electrical interference problems, reported here and on other forums, including Kawai forums. These include restarts when plugging/unplugging headphones, white noise on the line in and Bluetooth Audio and when using the touchscreen. There is a report showing a Kawai technician changing the wiring on the touchscreen display assembly in an attempt to solve these issues. If there is indeed some hardware-related electrical issue, then it may affect as well the USB and MIDI ports and the pedal sensor readings. Or it may be "just" a software bug.

FWIW: I had my previous DP connected to my desktop computer setup using MIDI over USB. But when I got the CA98 and connected it to the same computer using the same USB cable, the amount of ground loop interference made the setup unusable. I now use the MIDI ports on the CA98 instead of USB. I also have two small MIDI controller keyboards that I occasionally connect over USB and they do not produce any kind of noise. I also tested connecting the CA98 to my laptop when I was trying to understand the problem, and the results were he same. So, at least when it comes to ground loop interference, the CA98 is the only MIDI device I have that I cannot connect properly use over USB.

Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: Frédéric L] #2779723
11/10/18 06:52 AM
11/10/18 06:52 AM
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Erard Offline
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Erard  Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I have read : " I use a midi cable because I like to play with a very small buffer (64 samples) and the lowest latency possible. ". A MIDI cable imply 1ms of latency (the MIDI link at 31250 baud) plus the USB link latency. A direct USB link should imply at most 1ms. (USB1 pooling period). If you care about latency, a direct USB link seems more appropriate.

I agree - but with the midi cable I get to use an all RME drivers setup - they are excellent, stable and very fast. With a USB cable I would have to deal with Windows. Besides, a 5m cable would be the maximum limit for USB, while for midi it's well within spec.

Originally Posted by arc7urus
It is extremely unlikely that a physical communication error produces the same flipped bit in the setup of different users. The flip of a couple of random bits would produce a number of wrong/invalid MIDI messages but also different valid messages. A message with 1-2 random flipped bits would still be a valid in many cases. So, the symptom of a random communication error cannot always be the same message “note/on E4”. The most logical explanation is a software or hardware error on the Kawai NV10 or on the Babyface interface.

Unfortunately this is my conclusion as well. Unfortunately because if it is a problem with Kawai I have very little confidence they are going to listen and do something about it. I doubt the problem is with the Babyface Pro, which was working flawlessly with the AvantGrand and the same cable - for two years.


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: Garritan CFX Full middle E misfiring? [Re: rach3master] #2779732
11/10/18 07:43 AM
11/10/18 07:43 AM
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Frédéric L Online content
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Frédéric L  Online Content
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Using the Windows driver for the MIDI part (and the RME for the audio part) should not imply any issue. Even if the USB link is at the limit (5m), if it works better than MIDI, it would be interesting to test. Spurious E4 notes seems a too bad behaviour.

However, the USB link could create ground loop noise if it use with an audio link PC-NV10, it also uses one more USB port. I do understand it is not without inconvenience.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
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