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Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: BDB] #2778964
11/07/18 12:30 PM
11/07/18 12:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 671
North Vancouver
L
Lady Bird Online content
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Lady Bird  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 671
North Vancouver
Originally Posted by BDB
Most people cannot trill or play repeated notes fast enough to make a difference, and the difference disappears if the grand is not regulated properly. Una corda is usually not a big deal; sostenuto may be more of a difference, but most people never use either of those pedals much. The difference in the length of the key sticks is usually significant only in spinets, which are not made any longer.

There are people who think that a better piano will make them play better, but that difference is marginal compared to the difference in native talent. I have known several fine players who first played on mediocre or worse pianos, including uprights

As a music teacher you suggest a better piano. I have suggested grands and
uprights but then leave it for a family to decide It depends on them
and a technician to ultimately decide .As a teacher you work with
what you have .I had a grand for thier lessons .Some pupils are blessed to have good grand but WHY make people with just uprights
feel they cannot develope in music when they only have is an upright .
Good tone quality, trills ,playing rapid passages ,playing with dynamics ,playing Legato ,all this is still possible. You can still be an
artist ! The repertoire in advanced levels is usually wide enough to choose pieces that are fine for uprights as well .I am not talking about professional music diplomas .But you may be surprised there as a well .

Last edited by Lady Bird; 11/07/18 12:33 PM. Reason: Missing word
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Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: ConfusedinWalnut] #2778968
11/07/18 12:53 PM
11/07/18 12:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,411
Southwestern Ontario
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I offer a slightly different point of view. IMO, and based on arguments first put forth by C.P.E Bach:

A musician who has learned to control, with finesse, the resonance and tonal colours of a finely regulated grand, will find it easy to make music on a poorly regulated, out of tune spinet.

A pianist who has learned to control the sound of a poorly regulated, out of tune spinet, may never progress to becoming a musician, having never experienced creating the sound of the music the composer intended.

At what point in the training and development of the piano player (I hesitate to ascribe to them the term ‘musician’ yet.) this factor becomes critical is a decision only a good piano teacher can provide.

Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: hello my name is] #2778969
11/07/18 01:00 PM
11/07/18 01:00 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,022
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Carey  Offline
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Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by hello my name is
Wut, the left pedal on my Yamaha U3 is not a "real" una corda pedal?!?! O____O I've definitely used it before.
You probably know this but....the una corda pedal works differently on a grand as opposed to an upright. On an upright, the entire action assembly moves closer to the strings so the hammers don't travel as far while striking them, thus creating a softer sound. On a grand, the entire action moves slightly to the right, so the hammers only strike two strings instead of three per note. When properly adjusted, both types of una corda pedals work just fine.


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Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: Carey] #2778981
11/07/18 01:24 PM
11/07/18 01:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,900
Oakland
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In an upright, the hammers move closer to the strings, while the rest of the action remains stationary. This adds a considerable amount of lost motion to the action, making it far more inefficient, although some old pianos had lost motion compensators which worked to lessen this.

On a grand, the action may be set up so that the hammers strike just two strings, or that they strike with areas that are normally between the strings. Actually, to get either of those methods to work properly is at least as difficult as adjusting a sostenuto pedal.


Semipro Tech
Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: BDB] #2778991
11/07/18 02:33 PM
11/07/18 02:33 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,022
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by BDB
In an upright, the hammers move closer to the strings, while the rest of the action remains stationary. This adds a considerable amount of lost motion to the action, making it far more inefficient, although some old pianos had lost motion compensators which worked to lessen this.

On a grand, the action may be set up so that the hammers strike just two strings, or that they strike with areas that are normally between the strings. Actually, to get either of those methods to work properly is at least as difficult as adjusting a sostenuto pedal.
Thanks for the clarification. thumb thumb thumb


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: prout] #2779007
11/07/18 03:12 PM
11/07/18 03:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 671
North Vancouver
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Lady Bird Online content
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 671
North Vancouver
Originally Posted by prout
I offer a slightly different point of view. IMO, and based on arguments first put forth by C.P.E Bach:

A musician who has learned to control, with finesse, the resonance and tonal colours of a finely regulated grand, will find it easy to make music on a poorly regulated, out of tune spinet.

A pianist who has learned to control the sound of a poorly regulated, out of tune spinet, may never progress to becoming a musician, having never experienced creating the sound of the music the composer intended.

At what point in the training and development of the piano player (I hesitate to ascribe to them the term ‘musician’ yet.) this factor becomes critical is a decision only a good piano teacher can provide.

He was no doubt talking about a clavichord and maybe a Forte Piano
In CPE Bach s times there were no uprights and grand pianos
were there Prout ?He was the one who wrote a well known book about the
basic approach to playing the Forte Piano well .
I agree a well regulated piano would be essential .Also if an upright
Is used it would not be a spinet .
My BIG reaction is really against the teacher suggesting this family get a Steinways M grand .A grand is best in advanced levels but those with uprights can develop into an advanced grade as well on
a resononable well regulated upright 48 inch tall .

Last edited by Lady Bird; 11/07/18 03:18 PM. Reason: Extra word
Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: Lady Bird] #2779028
11/07/18 04:13 PM
11/07/18 04:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,411
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Joined: Nov 2013
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Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by prout
I offer a slightly different point of view. IMO, and based on arguments first put forth by C.P.E Bach:

A musician who has learned to control, with finesse, the resonance and tonal colours of a finely regulated grand, will find it easy to make music on a poorly regulated, out of tune spinet.

A pianist who has learned to control the sound of a poorly regulated, out of tune spinet, may never progress to becoming a musician, having never experienced creating the sound of the music the composer intended.

At what point in the training and development of the piano player (I hesitate to ascribe to them the term ‘musician’ yet.) this factor becomes critical is a decision only a good piano teacher can provide.

He was no doubt talking about a clavichord and maybe a Forte Piano
In CPE Bach s times there were no uprights and grand pianos
were there Prout ?He was the one who wrote a well known book about the
basic approach to playing the Forte Piano well .
I agree a well regulated piano would be essential .Also if an upright
Is used it would not be a spinet .
My BIG reaction is really against the teacher suggesting this family get a Steinways M grand .A grand is best in advanced levels but those with uprights can develop into an advanced grade as well on
a resononable well regulated upright 48 inch tall .
C.P.E. was speaking specifically about the clavichordist being able to easliy transition to the harpsichord, but the harpsichordist is not able to make music on the clavichord because they have not learned how to control dynamics and tone.

I have nothing against well maintained and regulated full size uprights. They will provide a quality sound and the student can learn how to control the instrument and transition to a quality grand when her technique surpasses the capability of the instrument to respond to her musical desires. I am thinking specifically about the long, long decay times of a large grand and the ability the flutter pedal treble chord changes, creating a clear melodic line over a period of 8-10 seconds and still have the bass notes ringing. A large, resonant grand needs much, much less use of damper pedal to create musical lines and effects. In my experience, so many students overpedal. Also, repetition rates will eventually be limiting.

I would hope that the astute teacher would know which of her students has the potential to use the resources available in a large grand and will recommend its acquisition at the appropriate time.

Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: prout] #2779529
11/09/18 11:07 AM
11/09/18 11:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 193
Chiltern Hills, England.
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gwing Offline
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Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 193
Chiltern Hills, England.
Originally Posted by prout
and the student can learn how to control the instrument and transition to a quality grand when her technique surpasses the capability of the instrument to respond to her musical desires.


Whew. My upright is going to be good enough for several years/lifetimes then :-)

Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: gwing] #2779532
11/09/18 11:40 AM
11/09/18 11:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,411
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,411
Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by prout
and the student can learn how to control the instrument and transition to a quality grand when her technique surpasses the capability of the instrument to respond to her musical desires.


Whew. My upright is going to be good enough for several years/lifetimes then :-)
You might be surprised. Changing pianos can change your approach to the type of music you enjoy learning and playing.

On my original grand, fast Mozart and Bach were my choices to learn as the piano was small, had hard hammers and poorly regulated action that was, nevertheless, regulated to the best of its capability. It was sold by my technician to a jazz pianist who also owns several larger S&S’s, who loved its action and sound for certain types of music.

My new grand is so resonant with such swirling sounds, I now tend to choose slow Chopin, Brahms and the like. No point wasting this piano on Mozart, though I did perform the Mozart Piano Quartets on it. I had to mute out the upper two octaves of duplexes to make the sound more appropriate for the era.

Re: Need Grand ASAP [Re: prout] #2779623
11/09/18 06:17 PM
11/09/18 06:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 788
Santa Fe, NM
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member
AaronSF  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 788
Santa Fe, NM
Quote
I had to mute out the upper two octaves of duplexes to make the sound more appropriate for the era.


Very clever. cool


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