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Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 #2779446
11/09/18 03:15 AM
11/09/18 03:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 570
Australia
cathryn999 Offline OP
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cathryn999  Offline OP
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Australia
[img]https://drive.google.com/open?id=15V5wjFfxHSAoFH8MYVLFjv8sab7tfyW0[/img]

Hi I'd like to upload an image of the music I'm referring to but don't seem to be able to, so apologies it's not visual but....

Liszt Consolation Number 4, Measure 25 contains two double accidentals, and I'm not sure what notes I'm meant to be playing. The chord at Beat Two, is it G natural, B flat, D flat and E natural? Or is that a double accidental on the B (flat/natural), so the top note is E flat? Then, on the fourth beat, is that a double accidental (flat/natural) in front of the D? So the chord is C natural, D natural and F natural?

Sorry for what might be a dumb question but I can't figure it out.

(if you click on this link (finger crossed) you should be able to see it?


Thanks
Cathryn


The difference between dreams and reality is action.
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Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779448
11/09/18 03:30 AM
11/09/18 03:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
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Sweden
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Animisha Offline
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Hi Cathryn, I can see the image without problem. In the first pair, can it be so simple that the accidentals refer to different notes? The b-sign refers to the f, and the natural sign refers to the g?
Cheers, Animisha

Last edited by Animisha; 11/09/18 03:37 AM.
Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779449
11/09/18 03:36 AM
11/09/18 03:36 AM
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Sweden
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Animisha Offline
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If you play this video, at 2:35 the same notes come up that you ask about. It seems more clear here that also in the second case, the b-sign refers to the c, and the natural sign referes to the d.

Animisha

Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779493
11/09/18 08:29 AM
11/09/18 08:29 AM
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I have have marked the note names to the right of each chord.

[Linked Image]

Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779518
11/09/18 10:14 AM
11/09/18 10:14 AM
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cmb13 Offline
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Cathyrn, how do you like this piece? I've been trying to choose the next big one, and I love the Consolation 3, but not sold on this one yet. I did listen once or twice. It takes me a while to learn a piece of this level, so I try to choose wisely. Thanks!


Boston 118 PE

Working On
Chopin Nocturne 20, Posthumous, in C-Sharp Minor
Pachelbel Canon in D
Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779581
11/09/18 03:20 PM
11/09/18 03:20 PM
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keystring Offline
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Something I caught was the reference to two "double accidentals". One of the traps in reading music that I got sensitized to was wrongly lining up accidentals with notes. With Prout's (correct) interpretation, we see there are no double accidentals - each corresponds to one note. You need to line up the notehead with the main shape of the accidental (lopsided square, tear drop). I've been caught out with this a few times in the past and so started to pay greater attention.

Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: keystring] #2779583
11/09/18 03:27 PM
11/09/18 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Something I caught was the reference to two "double accidentals". One of the traps in reading music that I got sensitized to was wrongly lining up accidentals with notes. With Prout's (correct) interpretation, we see there are no double accidentals - each corresponds to one note. You need to line up the notehead with the main shape of the accidental (lopsided square, tear drop). I've been caught out with this a few times in the past and so started to pay greater attention.
It doesn't even have to be "double" accidentals. It can be a real bear to try to pick out which note the accidental goes with when the notes are clustered close together (is 'clustered close together' redundant?).


[Linked Image]
Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: Stubbie] #2779586
11/09/18 03:31 PM
11/09/18 03:31 PM
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I would check with the ‘Department of Redundancy Department.”

Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: prout] #2779602
11/09/18 04:26 PM
11/09/18 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
I would check with the ‘Department of Redundancy Department.”
You can say that again. wink


[Linked Image]
Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: prout] #2779612
11/09/18 05:34 PM
11/09/18 05:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
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Australia
cathryn999 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by prout
I have have marked the note names to the right of each chord.

[Linked Image]

@Prout - oh it's *C* flat! Silly me, that sounds so much nicer, and thank you thank you thank you !!


The difference between dreams and reality is action.
Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779615
11/09/18 05:49 PM
11/09/18 05:49 PM
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prout Offline
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No problem. Even after 63 years of reading piano muisc, I still have to work through every note of a cluster type chords when I’m in learning mode, and I still get them wrong sometimes.

Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cmb13] #2779617
11/09/18 06:01 PM
11/09/18 06:01 PM
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Australia
cathryn999 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Cathyrn, how do you like this piece? I've been trying to choose the next big one, and I love the Consolation 3, but not sold on this one yet. I did listen once or twice. It takes me a while to learn a piece of this level, so I try to choose wisely. Thanks!


Hi cmb13,
I like this piece a lot. It has a beautiful combination of deeply resonant chords and big full bass notes overlaid with a deliciously delicate melody. It takes me to "the zone" (well it will, now that I know the right notes to play in that pesky bar!)

It's not that hard to learn. Timing is relatively straight forward (no polyrythms as in Consolation 3), the tempo is slow enough that your fingers have time to find the right notes, and there are no big jumps aka Chopin-style that you need to memorize. No unmanageablely huge chords spans either (for people with small hands), as is the case with so much other Liszt. I think level-wise, it's about akin to Beethoven Adagio Cantabile in Pathetique (so probably Grade 6 or 7). For me it's a meditative piece, more rich and full (and less fancy) than the No. 3, and I never tire of it (whereas I do tire of 3). It's not a party piece though - some people might not 'get it'.

In learning it, the trick is in the expression, and bringing out the melody rather than playing "chords". There are numerous different interpretations out there, the one I prefer most is Rubenstein's

So from me, it's a big yes :-)
cheers
Cathryn


The difference between dreams and reality is action.
Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779664
11/09/18 10:35 PM
11/09/18 10:35 PM
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This is a case of the engraving making it difficult to interpret.

One thing that points to them being on different notes is that it would make no sense at all to both flat and then natural a line or space before you play a note. No matter where they are, only the most recent accidental applies -- they're not cumulative.


-- J.S.

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Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779707
11/10/18 05:12 AM
11/10/18 05:12 AM
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jrcallan Offline
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Isn.t true that none of these are double accidentals?

A double accidental would look like "x".


Baldwin M
Casio PX-330
Casio AP-45
Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: jrcallan] #2779733
11/10/18 07:53 AM
11/10/18 07:53 AM
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Southwestern Ontario
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Originally Posted by jrcallan
Isn.t true that none of these are double accidentals?

A double accidental would look like "x".

There are a few times when a double flat or double sharp is altered by the composer to a single flat or sharp in the same measure and stave. In that particular case, some composers place a single flat and natural sign or a single sharp and natural sign are placed before the note on the same space or line.

Not all composers do this. Others simply place a single flat or sharp in front of the next occurrence of the same note.

Last edited by prout; 11/10/18 07:58 AM.
Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779738
11/10/18 08:14 AM
11/10/18 08:14 AM
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I should clarify my statement above. I doubt that any composers have done what I said above. I have checked a number of urtexts for various composers and have not found an example.

Publishers of some non urtext editions would add ‘courtesy’ signs to some notes to aid the reader. These included included confusing double signs.

Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779749
11/10/18 09:00 AM
11/10/18 09:00 AM
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Here is an example from the Schirmer Edition of Rachmaninov, (likely stolen from the first Moscow edition) showing the use of double accidental symbols. Much harder to read, IMO.

[Linked Image]

Re: Double accidental (flat/natural) in Consolation No. 4 [Re: cathryn999] #2779834
11/10/18 02:12 PM
11/10/18 02:12 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,526
Florida
cmb13 Offline
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Originally Posted by cathryn999
Originally Posted by cmb13
Cathyrn, how do you like this piece? I've been trying to choose the next big one, and I love the Consolation 3, but not sold on this one yet. I did listen once or twice. It takes me a while to learn a piece of this level, so I try to choose wisely. Thanks!


Hi cmb13,
I like this piece a lot. It has a beautiful combination of deeply resonant chords and big full bass notes overlaid with a deliciously delicate melody. It takes me to "the zone" (well it will, now that I know the right notes to play in that pesky bar!)

It's not that hard to learn. Timing is relatively straight forward (no polyrythms as in Consolation 3), the tempo is slow enough that your fingers have time to find the right notes, and there are no big jumps aka Chopin-style that you need to memorize. No unmanageablely huge chords spans either (for people with small hands), as is the case with so much other Liszt. I think level-wise, it's about akin to Beethoven Adagio Cantabile in Pathetique (so probably Grade 6 or 7). For me it's a meditative piece, more rich and full (and less fancy) than the No. 3, and I never tire of it (whereas I do tire of 3). It's not a party piece though - some people might not 'get it'.

In learning it, the trick is in the expression, and bringing out the melody rather than playing "chords". There are numerous different interpretations out there, the one I prefer most is Rubenstein's

So from me, it's a big yes :-)
cheers
Cathryn



Cathryn,

Thank you for the well thought out answer. I did run through it really quickly last night and agree, it is nice, and a good deal easier than the third consolation. It might be fun to have in the repertoire or at least to play around with. There are definitely new things to learn here with chords and voicing not present in the other piece for that will make it useful for learning.

Good luck with it. Appreciate it.

Craig


Boston 118 PE

Working On
Chopin Nocturne 20, Posthumous, in C-Sharp Minor
Pachelbel Canon in D

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