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Issues with Keyscape pianos #2770383
10/07/18 07:34 PM
10/07/18 07:34 PM
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ArtVandalay7 Offline OP
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Hello all--
I am really just getting started with digital pianos so I am relatively clueless but was really sold on the sounds available with Keyscape...the Rhodes, etc. work great and sound fantastic...very pleased. However, I'm having a LOT of issues with the acoustic pianos which is another claim to fame of the program. They all seem to overwhelm my system and I'll get harsh cracking noises and occasionally the whole keyboard will become shrill and I'll have to restart the program sometimes to get rid of it. In general they just don't sound very good either-bassy and thin rather than full. My setup is as follows:

Yamaha P-115 piano
Laptop with Intel i5 processor @ 2.70GHz, 8 GB ram
running Savihost 1.42 x64, Omnisphere 2 (with Keyscape of course)
Output port ASIO apogee USB ASIO driver, sample rate 44100--changing the buffer size seems to make no difference whatsoever
Output into Apogee One which feeds into my mixer

Any help with solving this problem would be greatly appreciated, I really want to get the most out of the Yamaha C7 in particular!


Last edited by ArtVandalay7; 10/07/18 07:35 PM.
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Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2770387
10/07/18 08:00 PM
10/07/18 08:00 PM
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IIRC, Keyscape has a "thinning" option for weaker systems. I'd give that a try.


Bert
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Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2770476
10/08/18 06:17 AM
10/08/18 06:17 AM
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ArtVandalay7 Offline OP
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Hi, thanks for the reply. I forgot to mention that I have used the thinning option. Again, doesn't seem to make a difference with this problem. Most of the acoustic pianos don't sound good and I have those pops and crackles that persist even with thinning.

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2770563
10/08/18 12:01 PM
10/08/18 12:01 PM
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I have the same problem with Keyscape. I'm afraid you probably need more RAM and a faster processor. I have an older iMac that is not easily upgradeable so I'm stuck until I get a new computer. I'm glad Keyscape was a gift or I'd be more upset.

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Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: jarobi] #2770685
10/08/18 06:44 PM
10/08/18 06:44 PM
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ArtVandalay7 Offline OP
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Really? I thought I looked at the minimum requirements and I thought this would be okay (Have a SSD as well). Do you think it is mostly the processor rather than the RAM? I'd rather not have to upgrade both if not absolutely necessary!

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2770687
10/08/18 06:48 PM
10/08/18 06:48 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Art, what advice did you receive from the developer of Keyscape?


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2770767
10/09/18 07:44 AM
10/09/18 07:44 AM
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newbert Offline
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Originally Posted by ArtVandalay7
Really? I thought I looked at the minimum requirements and I thought this would be okay (Have a SSD as well). Do you think it is mostly the processor rather than the RAM? I'd rather not have to upgrade both if not absolutely necessary!


My system is very similar to yours, except that my CPU is a bit slower (2.3mhz). I can't say that Keyscape NEVER gives me a problem, but it's only occasional.

My GUESS is that a faster processor will help you. But I'd try running Keyscape without Omnisphere2 (and without anything else which might be running in the background) and perhaps with a different VST host first. You're already at the edge of RAM limit with Keyscape alone. Running something else concurrently (Omnisphere) may be putting you over the top. If this improves performance, and you absolutely need to run Omnisphere concurrently, upgrade the RAM instead.

Good luck.


Bert
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Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2770782
10/09/18 09:13 AM
10/09/18 09:13 AM
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Try turning off networking/Bluetooth. Can you disable c-states in the BIOS of your laptop?

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2770946
10/10/18 12:26 AM
10/10/18 12:26 AM
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Be sure to have the power setting of your laptop at maximum performance and connect your laptop to your power adapter. That solved performance problems with Kescape on a computer of a friend of me.

Last edited by HansC2; 10/10/18 12:29 AM.
Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2770988
10/10/18 06:51 AM
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ArtVandalay7 Offline OP
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Thanks for all the input. I did change the power setting to max performance and the laptop is plugged in. I do have the laptop connected to my network b/c I occasionally use youtube or sheet music/instructional MP3 while I am playing. I have never dealt with C-states so I don't really know how to do that...

Newbert--is there another (hopefully user friendly smile ) VST you would recommend using? I picked SaviHost b/c it seemed like it would be the easiest to use and it was free...

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2770995
10/10/18 07:30 AM
10/10/18 07:30 AM
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newbert Offline
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I'm not familiar with Savihost. FWIW, I use Reaper.

Have you tried turning off as many running programs as possible, such as antivirus, Omnisphere, etc in order to free up Ram for Keyscape?


Bert
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Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2771362
10/11/18 08:30 AM
10/11/18 08:30 AM
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ArtVandalay7 Offline OP
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Turning off the antivirus doesn't seem to do anything (Avast). I have to run Keyscape in Omnisphere...I don't have the standalone version.

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2771368
10/11/18 08:42 AM
10/11/18 08:42 AM
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I run Keyscape on a Samsung Evo 850 1TB SSD and it runs like silk. Had the same problems as you with crackling and what not back when i was running it on HDD.

Those Evo SSDs are demanding piano libraries best friend.

Try running Keyscape as Standalone and see if you still have the same problems. I also read that Keyscape runs smoother inside Omnisphere for some reason, but that was before they rolled the updates on Keyscape and improved on it...

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2778924
11/07/18 07:52 AM
11/07/18 07:52 AM
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ArtVandalay7 Offline OP
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So an update...I switched to a computer with an i7 processor hoping this would help but, frustratingly, it hasn't seemed to make any difference (8gb RAM and SSD). This is with running Keyscape even in standalone mode with thinning, etc. Works well most of the time, but usually when playing multiple notes, using sustain pedal, etc. a very harsh, shrill, distorted sound will almost be superimposed on top of the normal keyboard or piano sound. Sometimes this goes away after stopping playing for a few seconds, sometimes it persists and you have to exit out of the app or change settings/drivers back and forth to get it to go away...any help for this?

My setup:
Yamaha P-115 piano
Laptop with Intel i7 processor, 8 GB ram
running Savihost 1.42 x64, Omnisphere 2, Keyscape and also Keyscape standalone version
Output port ASIO apogee USB ASIO driver
Output into Apogee One which feeds into my mixer

If anyone knows how to fix this I will be forever in your debt!

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2778926
11/07/18 08:26 AM
11/07/18 08:26 AM
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Philadelphia
Bruce In Philly Online content
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Somethings to think about....... I don't use Keyscape but do use audio software that uses special drivers that bypass the Windows "kernel". Asio et al bypass the kernel to give you a true bit-for-bit passage through the Windows world as Windows will mod the digital stream... many reasons for this such as the Windows volume control that will damage the sound quality. When you bypass the kernel, for some reasons I don't understand, the stream becomes susceptible to interruption due to other Windows activities. Consider the following... no guarantee here, just poke around a bit and chip away....

1- I found setting the buffer to something pretty small reduces "crackling" .. not sure why but it may have to do with use of memory or memory management tasks performed by Windows on larger buffers
2 - Windows is always trying to do something in the background. Turn off EVERYTHING you don't need. Try turning off virus protection and see what that does. Open Windows Settings, and type "Startup" in the search bar.... you will see a large list of apps that startup when you fire up Windows. Turn off everything you don't need.... these programs may be doing something in the background steeling computer resources. BTW, it may have nothing to do with CPU usage as some tasks simply stop other things from happening, and again, streaming past the Windows kernel can be affected with this stuff.
3. Go to "Sounds" in Windows, rt click on your little speaker icon in the tray, and, select the Playback tab, find the driver you are using, select Properties, ensure "Level" is 100, disable all enhancements, turn spatial sound OFF, and in Advanced, you have the proper rate selected.

The above are just prudent things to check to get a machine to run fast for a given app.... I hope it improves your situation.

Good luck,
Bruce in Philly

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 11/07/18 08:31 AM.

Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2778934
11/07/18 09:31 AM
11/07/18 09:31 AM
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You didn't say what CPU you're running. "i7" covers a very wide range of processors, ranging from 2-core to 10-core, and performance ranging over a 10-to-1 range.
Also ...
1. How big is that SSD?
2. Is the piano software installed on the SSD, or on a secondary HDD?

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2779024
11/07/18 04:06 PM
11/07/18 04:06 PM
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I is a 2.2 GHz 3rd generation intel core i7-3632QM with turbo boost up to 3.2 ghz. I believe it is a quad. I do run everything off of a SSD and have even disabled everything I can, even antivirus. Have even used an online guide by creator of Cantible to try to boost everything I possibly can on the computer. How do I know what the proper rate is by the way? I'm using an ASIO driver feeding to Apogee One as my DAC. Bottom line is when the harsh shrill noise sets in (particularly with the acoustic pianos) it scares the living sh-- out of me it's so jarring and loud. Becoming very frustrating!

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2779061
11/07/18 05:29 PM
11/07/18 05:29 PM
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That box should be fast enough. I had a desktop not nearly as fast as your CPU (yours is about one-third faster), and I had an HDD rather than an SSD. And all was well.
But ... my biggest library was the Ivory 1 series, with each of the four pianos chewing up 16 GB of storage. I think your Keyscape is much bigger than that.

Still, you should be able to work adequately. And the shrill noise is not what I'd expect if you had a computer-performance limitation.
I can't imagine how you're getting shrill noises.
Maybe you need a different audio interface?

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2779092
11/07/18 07:29 PM
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Why are you using ASIO driver? What is wrong with the Apogee-provided setup? Did you try contacting Apogee? What happens when you use another digital source such as CD in the CD tray, or streaming, or MP3s from a USB stick?

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 11/07/18 07:31 PM.

Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2779102
11/07/18 07:52 PM
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You really need to use ASIO on Windows. Whether it's a vendor provided ASIO driver or the freebie ASIO 4 All ... you need it for low latency on Windows.

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2779278
11/08/18 01:00 PM
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Update...the Apogee One appears to be the issue. I was using an ASIO driver for the Apogee too, FWIW. Anyway, plugging directly into the laptop vs. the Apogee One seems to make all the problems completely go away which leads to a whole other set of questions. Why would the Apogee One be causing this issue? Does that mean it's defective or did I miss some kind of setting on the Maestro that was causing that issue? I was really thinking it would provider superior sound vs. the laptop sound card. Any thoughts?

Last edited by ArtVandalay7; 11/08/18 01:00 PM.
Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2779332
11/08/18 03:59 PM
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Again, why the Asio driver? Did you try the driver provided by Apogee? Try it, then if there is problems, contact Apogee.

Peace
Bruce in Philly


Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2779403
11/08/18 09:27 PM
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Hey Bruce-
It is a custom Apogee ASIO audio driver includes with the firmware update for the device.

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: Bruce In Philly] #2779410
11/08/18 10:10 PM
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Again, because VST audio is not practical on Windows without ASIO.
Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
Again, why the Asio driver? Did you try the driver provided by Apogee? Try it, then if there is problems, contact Apogee.

Bruce in Philly

Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2779488
11/09/18 07:29 AM
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I have already some issues about RAM (8GB) with Garritan CFX.

One option is to load a lot of samples (I use multiple 4 instances of Ivory which load fastly), to push concurrent softwares on the pagefile, unload them and load Keyscape. Windows will then have enough free physical memory and won’t swap some samples.

If you have any problems, note the memory usage (task manager, performance tab).


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Re: Issues with Keyscape pianos [Re: ArtVandalay7] #2780673
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Thanks for all of the input. But everything seems to be working essentially flawlessly now that I am not using the Apogee One and just plugging directly into the laptop. Sound is much better and louder and there is no longer, harshness and major crackling. I guess I don't understand why the Apogee One was such a disaster for this application, seems like it should theoretically provide superior sound and performance...


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