Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
129 registered members (AaronSF, AnnInMiami, amad23, Amedeus, ALEXANDER DYKER, Angelos58, ando, 27 invisible), 1,781 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: SchroedersCat] #2779480
11/09/18 06:24 AM
11/09/18 06:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,839
*sigh* Salt Lake City
malkin Offline
4000 Post Club Member
malkin  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,839
*sigh* Salt Lake City
Maybe my favorite feedback is when I have followed instructions, and the problem is better, but I need to do more of the correction. That way I know that I am on the right track rather than heading down some wrong direction.


I've been trying to change my signature quote for weeks.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: SchroedersCat] #2779536
11/09/18 12:38 PM
11/09/18 12:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,811
Philadelphia, PA
J
jdw Offline
1000 Post Club Member
jdw  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,811
Philadelphia, PA
I'm not a piano teacher, but an adult student and a parent of grown children. I'm not convinced by all of the article. Obviously praising everything all the time makes the praise meaningless. But I think the idea of avoiding evaluation can't be good for something like piano teaching where kids (or students of any age) often don't have the knowledge to judge for themselves what's good. My teacher tells me when something is done well, and I know he won't say that if it isn't. I need the praise as well as the correction to help me assess what I'm doing, and I think kids do too.


1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Chopin, Waltz in E minor (op. posth.)
Schubert, Op. 90 no. 2
Mendelssohn, Op. 19 no. 2
Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: jdw] #2779632
11/09/18 06:57 PM
11/09/18 06:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 963
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
500 Post Club Member
NobleHouse  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 963
In the Ozarks of Missouri
Originally Posted by jdw
I'm not a piano teacher, but an adult student and a parent of grown children. I'm not convinced by all of the article. Obviously praising everything all the time makes the praise meaningless. But I think the idea of avoiding evaluation can't be good for something like piano teaching where kids (or students of any age) often don't have the knowledge to judge for themselves what's good. My teacher tells me when something is done well, and I know he won't say that if it isn't. I need the praise as well as the correction to help me assess what I'm doing, and I think kids do too.



I agree. I need the praise or the correction as well. Otherwise, how do I know?

Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: SchroedersCat] #2779637
11/09/18 07:19 PM
11/09/18 07:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,198
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,198
Canada
I just reread the article. It is parenting article, not a teaching article. I think that's important. When there is a young growing person in your home, then the child's interests, motivations, and purposes need be in others' awareness, just like for anyone else - rather than everything the child does being subject for approval. That is the point that the writer finally gets around to making at the end of the article. In a learning setting, the learner is collaboration with the person who is guiding, and then there needs to be guidance.

As a learner, I want to know whether I've managed to do what I set out to do, or the task my teacher set out for me, or what is good about what I did so I can keep doing it, or what still needs to be done or changed. I think that is true at any age. If the only thing I ever here is "good", then how do I steer my learning ship? Or how do I know I'm on track? Yes, I'm writing as an adult student, but I got that feedback from kids when I was teaching one-on-one as well. I'm thinking that might even apply to toddlers.

Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: NobleHouse] #2779639
11/09/18 07:23 PM
11/09/18 07:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,036
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,036
Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by jdw
I'm not a piano teacher, but an adult student and a parent of grown children. I'm not convinced by all of the article. Obviously praising everything all the time makes the praise meaningless. But I think the idea of avoiding evaluation can't be good for something like piano teaching where kids (or students of any age) often don't have the knowledge to judge for themselves what's good. My teacher tells me when something is done well, and I know he won't say that if it isn't. I need the praise as well as the correction to help me assess what I'm doing, and I think kids do too.



I agree. I need the praise or the correction as well. Otherwise, how do I know?
The question is ‘How much?”
Using the reductio ad absurdum argument, do we want praise for every item of correctness? “Well done Johnny, you played all 27 notes in the first measure correctly, and you also played correctly all...”

Do we need praise for playing notes correctly, or should we save the praise for solving a technical problem from a musical perspective, or for finally playing musically, for example.

Last edited by prout; 11/09/18 07:29 PM.
Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: SchroedersCat] #2779644
11/09/18 07:29 PM
11/09/18 07:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,198
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,198
Canada
I looked up the author and found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Kohn

He is well-read. He does not have practical experience teaching and is not a teacher. His views probably coincide with my own, which were reinforced during the time that I did teach in the classroom. That is, my grade 2 kids were already losing their intrinsic curiosity and learning drive because they had had several years of stickers, rewards, and punishments before coming to me. They were still young enough to turn this around. It was a relief to see them turning from looking anxiously to please me, then puzzled at the absence of rewards, and then drift into inquisitiveness. I had read John Holt as a teen, and what I read then probably resonated to my young mind.

Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: prout] #2779656
11/09/18 09:18 PM
11/09/18 09:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 963
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
500 Post Club Member
NobleHouse  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 963
In the Ozarks of Missouri
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by jdw
I'm not a piano teacher, but an adult student and a parent of grown children. I'm not convinced by all of the article. Obviously praising everything all the time makes the praise meaningless. But I think the idea of avoiding evaluation can't be good for something like piano teaching where kids (or students of any age) often don't have the knowledge to judge for themselves what's good. My teacher tells me when something is done well, and I know he won't say that if it isn't. I need the praise as well as the correction to help me assess what I'm doing, and I think kids do too.



I agree. I need the praise or the correction as well. Otherwise, how do I know?
The question is ‘How much?”
Using the reductio ad absurdum argument, do we want praise for every item of correctness? “Well done Johnny, you played all 27 notes in the first measure correctly, and you also played correctly all...”

Do we need praise for playing notes correctly, or should we save the praise for solving a technical problem from a musical perspective, or for finally playing musically, for example.


Oh, I agree with you. I would not want "constant" praise, nor hopefully constant correction. grin. Only when truly deserved-or needed.

Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: SchroedersCat] #2779658
11/09/18 09:54 PM
11/09/18 09:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 36
San Francisco
S
SchroedersCat Offline OP
Full Member
SchroedersCat  Offline OP
Full Member
S

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 36
San Francisco
I linked the article as it was the inspiration for my introspection into my own habits which were on the verge of becoming vocal tics, I'd say it so often. And honestly, Whiplash was the real onus for my introspection that led me to this article: "There are no two more harmful words in the English language than 'Good job'" I have a lot of problems with the movie, but that line got to me.

I realize it's a parenting article, veers off into areas that have little to with actual teaching, and has quite a few things I have an opinion no on at all, since as we all know, I'm not a parent. wink

But avoiding the mindless or misplaced "Good Job" was the point of this conversation. Praise is a must, but it needs to be meaningful praise. Correction is a must, but it needs to stated in a way that keeps the student motivated. Each teacher will have their own rhythm for these things, and a slightly different rhythm with each student. We're all individuals and each student/teacher partnership is unique. There is no one-size-fits-all approach to handing out praise and correction, as is made clear by all the wonderfully different views of those participating here!

I did want to touch on the debate about praising effort. Perhaps effort can be viewed two ways. You can say, "I can see you're working hard" and it could mean, "Your reasonably applied effort is creating desirable results, I can hear your progress, keep doing what you're doing" or it could mean, "Paurve ti bete, bless your heart, you sure are putting a lot of effort into digging that hole with a spoon. You sure you don't want a shovel?"

Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: SchroedersCat] #2779665
11/09/18 10:38 PM
11/09/18 10:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 215
USA
A
Andamento Offline
Full Member
Andamento  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 215
USA
Originally Posted by SchroedersCat
I did want to touch on the debate about praising effort. Perhaps effort can be viewed two ways. You can say, "I can see you're working hard" and it could mean, "Your reasonably applied effort is creating desirable results, I can hear your progress, keep doing what you're doing" or it could mean, "Paurve ti bete, bless your heart, you sure are putting a lot of effort into digging that hole with a spoon. You sure you don't want a shovel?"


Since I was part of that effort debate -- actually, I guess I started it wink -- I'll add now that I was thinking about what I've read of the psychologist Carol Dweck's work studying effort in school children, and how it's impacted by the way educators speak with them.

This ARTICLE, while lengthier than the one ScroedersCat posted, gives a clear picture of Dweck's research findings, and offers insights into how we, as people working with children, can apply those findings.

I did have to chuckle a bit, though, at the part where the author quoted someone else as saying, "Carol Dweck is a flat-out genius." I thought we weren't supposed to say things like that. smile

Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: keystring] #2779754
11/10/18 09:29 AM
11/10/18 09:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,839
*sigh* Salt Lake City
malkin Offline
4000 Post Club Member
malkin  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,839
*sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted by keystring
I looked up the author and found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Kohn

He is well-read. He does not have practical experience teaching and is not a teacher. His views probably coincide with my own, which were reinforced during the time that I did teach in the classroom. That is, my grade 2 kids were already losing their intrinsic curiosity and learning drive because they had had several years of stickers, rewards, and punishments before coming to me. They were still young enough to turn this around. It was a relief to see them turning from looking anxiously to please me, then puzzled at the absence of rewards, and then drift into inquisitiveness. I had read John Holt as a teen, and what I read then probably resonated to my young mind.


I believe he does have practical experience teaching. (From his web page: From 1979 until 1985, I taught a course on existentialism to high school students. It was not my only teaching experience but it was far and away my favorite.)

I'm very familiar with his work, and find it worthy of thought.

However, ideas that influence my teaching practice usually come from people with fewer publications and speaking engagements but who have spent more time engaged in actual education with actual other humans similar to the ones I work with.

My guess is that Kohn has made way more money as a pundit than he ever could have made as a teacher.


I've been trying to change my signature quote for weeks.

Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: malkin] #2779862
11/10/18 03:43 PM
11/10/18 03:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,198
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,198
Canada
Originally Posted by malkin
However, ideas that influence my teaching practice usually come from people with fewer publications and speaking engagements but who have spent more time engaged in actual education with actual other humans similar to the ones I work with.

You have put into words something that I was not able to express.

Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: SchroedersCat] #2779961
11/11/18 12:36 AM
11/11/18 12:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,761
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Online happy
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Online Happy
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,761
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by SchroedersCat
"Paurve ti bete, bless your heart, you sure are putting a lot of effort into digging that hole with a spoon. You sure you don't want a shovel?"

My god, have you been eavesdropping on my lessons?

My awful student had the gall to tell me that she thought she had "improved" this week. She considers practicing three times a week an improvement? I just had to put her in her place. I blame her school teachers for giving her self-esteem. Her inflated sense of self-worth will eat her alive in 10 years. Make that 5 years.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Avoiding "Good job!" [Re: SchroedersCat] #2780025
11/11/18 08:31 AM
11/11/18 08:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,117
Virginia, USA
T
TimR Online content
4000 Post Club Member
TimR  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,117
Virginia, USA
Thanks for bringing up Carol Dweck. I thought the OP's article while it had some points showed a lack of knowledge of other thought, in particular the Dweck growth mindset and "not yet" ideas.

As an adult student I need feedback on things I don't hear myself doing wrong, and advice on how to do it better. (that advice needs to be more specific and directive for some students than for others.) I don't particularly need any motivation assistance.

For very young students, a good bit of the motivation to do anything is pleasing the teacher. At some point a music student clearly must transition to a more internal motivation.

Last edited by TimR; 11/11/18 08:32 AM. Reason: clarity

gotta go practice
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Diminished scales and chords
by Tango. 11/14/18 03:02 PM
VPC1 Setup
by Makalajala2. 11/14/18 01:31 PM
Thoughts on Kimball Grand Pianos?
by Aydan. 11/14/18 01:25 PM
Roland- headphones
by Nordomus. 11/14/18 10:52 AM
Memorizing
by Manne janne. 11/14/18 10:18 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics188,333
Posts2,761,018
Members91,487
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2