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Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action #2779256
11/08/18 10:53 AM
11/08/18 10:53 AM
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Manchester, UK
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Rohit04062 Offline OP
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Hi, I recently bought a kawai ca78 following the good reviews of grand feel 2 on this site and trying it in the shop. In the shop the action definitely felt closer to a grand piano compared to everything else in its price range, but I wasn't a big fan of the sound.

Unfortunately after playing it some more at home I've ran into some major problems with its action. The minimum force required to produce a sound seems to be extremely inconsistent throughout the keyboard. Where a certain amount of force will produce a sound in one key, it will simply produce silence in another key. This is especially pronounced in most of the C and G white keys as well as a few black keys throughout the keyboard, and they are often silent. The let off or escapement mechanic is also inconsistent, certain keys are harder to press down at the bottom and it's usually these that are silent - notably on most G keys.

As such playing passages below mp in dynamics seems to be impossible due to the risk of silent notes. It's a shame as the piano action does feel closer to a grand piano than all of its competitors in its price range when playing louder.

The sound is also very disappointing, very muffled with the pedal and a very heavy bass (my ancient yamaha p155 had a better sound IMO) as I mentioned but this can probably be fixed with garritan or pianoteq software etc so it is not my main concern.

I am going to give it a bit more time to get used to the action and compare it to a real grand (of course it might be that my playing is too light since I had been practising on a yamaha p155 all these years which had a very light action) but if things don't improve then I'm considering either replacing/getting a technician to look at this model or choose a different brand such as the casio gp400/500 or yamaha clp645, does anybody have any opinion on those? I would like to have an action that resembles a grand as much as it can in this price range - I realise nothing is going to be perfect and they will all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Last edited by Rohit04062; 11/08/18 10:59 AM.
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Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779263
11/08/18 11:30 AM
11/08/18 11:30 AM
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Colin Miles Offline
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There is no such thing as one grand piano action, but obviously if you think the GF2 is close then so be it. However, it should be consistent across the keyboard so you need to get back to your dealer and either get it regulated - might make a difference - or replaced with the same or another model, perhaps from Yamaha, Roland or Casio.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779264
11/08/18 11:42 AM
11/08/18 11:42 AM
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slobajudge Offline
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Originally Posted by Rohit04062
Hi, I recently bought a kawai ca78 following the good reviews of grand feel 2 on this site and trying it in the shop. In the shop the action definitely felt closer to a grand piano compared to everything else in its price range, but I wasn't a big fan of the sound.

Unfortunately after playing it some more at home I've ran into some major problems with its action. The minimum force required to produce a sound seems to be extremely inconsistent throughout the keyboard. Where a certain amount of force will produce a sound in one key, it will simply produce silence in another key. This is especially pronounced in most of the C and G white keys as well as a few black keys throughout the keyboard, and they are often silent. The let off or escapement mechanic is also inconsistent, certain keys are harder to press down at the bottom and it's usually these that are silent - notably on most G keys.

As such playing passages below mp in dynamics seems to be impossible due to the risk of silent notes. It's a shame as the piano action does feel closer to a grand piano than all of its competitors in its price range when playing louder.

Your experience is very similar to this women and she is very serious piano teacher. I recommend to look at this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqzgVHv_D7U
Maybe you can find some solution like she find it on Kawai CA58. Some action settings work better than others.

Last edited by slobajudge; 11/08/18 11:45 AM.
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779270
11/08/18 12:23 PM
11/08/18 12:23 PM
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shirlkirsten Offline
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Thanks for posting this. I agree with the what is mentioned as I carefully detailed the CA 58 for a student who had issues described. He had purchased the digital well before he had embarked upon lessons so I had no input. In general I recommend a well regulated, and maintained acoustic, though in many cases individuals have no option to acquire one.


Piano blog: Performances, Instruction, Interviews
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Oberlin Conservatory
NYU, M.A., Steinway M grand and Baldwin165, Yamaha 255
MTAC Alameda
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779272
11/08/18 12:32 PM
11/08/18 12:32 PM
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Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Hi! Try using a midi monitor to check the sensors on your keyboard. This thread explains what to do.

http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/topics/2764595.html

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779289
11/08/18 01:32 PM
11/08/18 01:32 PM
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Berkeley, California
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shirlkirsten Offline
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The Upright setting and Heavy action + improved smooth transit across the CA 58 keyboard.. but the sound lacked the brighter shimmer of SK grand piano setting. At least dynamics were pliant on the Upright setting as I tested it.. with pedal set at "5"


Piano blog: Performances, Instruction, Interviews
http://www.arioso7.wordpress.com

You Tube Channel
http://www.youtube.com/arioso7



NYC HS of Performing Arts
Oberlin Conservatory
NYU, M.A., Steinway M grand and Baldwin165, Yamaha 255
MTAC Alameda
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779307
11/08/18 02:24 PM
11/08/18 02:24 PM
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JoBert Offline
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I'm going to suggest the reverse from shirl laugh

If you set the Touch to Heavy, then you limit the max velocity that you can reach at a very low value (around 100 or so, out of max 127). In order for this low velocity to sound loud enough for a proper ff or fff similar to an acoustic, you then need to slide the main volume way up.

That however also increases the volume at the low end, i.e. if you now play softly around 25-30, it still sounds quite loud (maybe mp or so, but not a proper p). So to play a proper p or even pp, you are forced to play even more softly, probably a good bit below 20 maybe even down to 10 or so. However, that is very difficult on the GFII (I had the CA97 myself for more than two years). Playing down to 20 or so is possible but difficult, but below 20 gets very difficult and you get into the range where small inconsistencies in the regulation can easily throw you off and result in silent notes.

So instead, try setting the Touch to Light. That increases the achievable velocities at the top end. Up to 120 (out of 127) is now achievable, if you really dig in.

One nice advantage is, that you get access to another sample layer with these high velocities, i.e. a ff or fff is now not only louder, but also has more bite/grit to it. And of course, at the same master volume setting, 120 for fff is already by itself much louder than 100 for fff (as you get with Heavy Touch). So the fff (with the same master volume) is now actually too loud. So you can now turn down the master volume a bit until the fff at 120 again has the same perceived loudness as previously the fff at 100 had.

And by turning down the master volume of course also affects the lower end. If you now play softly at 25-30, which is easily done, you already get a proper p. And with a bit of concentration you can play event softer at around 20 for a nice pp. And you no longer need to play down to the very edge of the action, like 10-15 or so (which is indeed difficult) just to get that same pp.

So Light Touch with lower master volume has two advantages: A larger possible midi range, giving you a more gritty fff, but at the same time a much easier to achieve pp.

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779333
11/08/18 04:03 PM
11/08/18 04:03 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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My experience differs from JoBert (I am NOT a fan of Light/Light + on the internal tone generator), but I agree with him here.

On my Kawai DP, it's hard to EVER get above a MIDI velocity of 100. For me, on internal speakers this is no problem at all, since the piano produces a natural and pleasing dynamic range at "normal" Touch Curve. But for VSTs, I want the utmost fidelity, including ppp/fff and so I set the NV-10 to Light+ (which allows full MIDI 2-127 velocity), and adjust the VST velocity curve and dynamic range accordingly to achieve that.

However, whenever I am playing through the DP's native speakers, I set everything back to default (including touch curve).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779343
11/08/18 04:33 PM
11/08/18 04:33 PM
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Posts: 96
France
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rolex67 Offline
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I personally have quite the same issue on my CA67.
Certain keys are not as sensitive as other, regarding pianissimos....
Well.... sometimes, I have no sound ... I accommodate...
I will try the recommendations mentioned above, perhaps it will help!

Sound wise...now..
Since I have pianoteq, I have never used the internal sounds anymore!

They are just awfull compared to a real acoustic !
You just have to play....and feel that electric sounds ( mostly on the medium and bass. Trebles are nice though)

So why I got it ? :-)

Simply because I was certainly biased by the sum of good feedback and reviews here when it was released , and because when I tried it in the shop it seemed to me better than the others, action wise.


Last edited by rolex67; 11/08/18 04:36 PM.
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779464
11/09/18 04:40 AM
11/09/18 04:40 AM
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Colin Miles Offline
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Just to add to my original remarks about getting a replacement, etc. I have recently played a CA78 a couple of times in my local store for some time. Experienced no problems other than the fact that it wouldn't allow me to update the software. But it played fine on standard settings.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779469
11/09/18 05:07 AM
11/09/18 05:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 522
Just outside London UK
akc42 Offline
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I have a CA67 and following an earlier version of Jobert's advice have set the touch to Light+. I also used the VT on individual notes that were standing out a bit much to lower their volume a short amount. The end result is a very even sound all the way up the keyboard, but rather sensitive. My teacher commented the other day that she found it a bit too sensitive as we were discussing getting an even sound in a Bach Invention - but agreed that it might be better for my technique in the long run for me to learn to control it rather than slide the setting back a little.

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Colin Miles] #2779477
11/09/18 05:50 AM
11/09/18 05:50 AM
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Manchester, UK
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Rohit04062 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JoBert
I'm going to suggest the reverse from shirl laugh

If you set the Touch to Heavy, then you limit the max velocity that you can reach at a very low value (around 100 or so, out of max 127). In order for this low velocity to sound loud enough for a proper ff or fff similar to an acoustic, you then need to slide the main volume way up.

So instead, try setting the Touch to Light. That increases the achievable velocities at the top end. Up to 120 (out of 127) is now achievable, if you really dig in.

So Light Touch with lower master volume has two advantages: A larger possible midi range, giving you a more gritty fff, but at the same time a much easier to achieve pp.


I'm already headed in that direction, I initially tried it on heavy+, then heavy, but after I switched to normal I found I was able to play with a much larger dynamic range and more musically. I do worry with lighter settings if it will negatively affect me playing on real pianos.

Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Just to add to my original remarks about getting a replacement, etc. I have recently played a CA78 a couple of times in my local store for some time. Experienced no problems other than the fact that it wouldn't allow me to update the software. But it played fine on standard settings.


Yes I'm firstly going to go to a shop and see if I can get a technician or replacement, if not I might go for a different brand (there are other issues with the action too, it feels quite slow and sluggish at times). Another option I've seen on YouTube is to manually remove the escapement feature to make the keybed more consistent.

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779482
11/09/18 06:44 AM
11/09/18 06:44 AM
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Colin Miles Offline
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Originally Posted by Rohit04062


I'm already headed in that direction, I initially tried it on heavy+, then heavy, but after I switched to normal I found I was able to play with a much larger dynamic range and more musically. I do worry with lighter settings if it will negatively affect me playing on real pianos.


'Real' pianos vary quite widely in their touch weight. One of the pianos I 'grew up' with was a Steinway grand with a very light touch. Recently played one in the store and my instant reaction to the touch was, 'yes, I remember this'.

To progress you need to experience different pianos. Perhaps mastering the different weights on your CA78 may be a starting point.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779527
11/09/18 10:58 AM
11/09/18 10:58 AM
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Stockholm
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I noticed this exact same phenomenon when testing the CA-78 a month ago.

Of course, a very weak/slow strike shouldn't result in a sound (as in a real piano) but here this happened way too much. I made sure that this wasn't caused by the setting for minimum note velocity.

I then got the idea (also suggested above) to check the MIDI output. It turned out that the silent notes all had velocity 1 (or 0, don't remember which) – so this seems to be a hardware problem, and if so, using a VST or changing the velocity curve won't solve it. (I found some minor variability across notes, but for me this wasn't the main problem.)

Interestingly, the store also had a CA-98 which was much better in this respect (although it's supposed to have the same action as CA-78). The store manager simply said that these kinds of "small" differences are to be expected across different samples, and that's that. In particular, in case I'm unlucky with my sample of CA-78, this problem would not be covered by the warranty (I asked). For me this is unfortunately a deal breaker. :-(

I didn't find this problem in other DPs I tried in the store (VPC-1, Roland, Yamaha).


Kawai GE-20
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779540
11/09/18 12:49 PM
11/09/18 12:49 PM
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Andy R Offline
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Originally Posted by Rohit04062
[quote=JoBert]I'm going to suggest the reverse from shirl laugh

Another option I've seen on YouTube is to manually remove the escapement feature to make the keybed more consistent.


Removing the rubber letoff bumpers from my GF2 action solved the issue for me. Now the action plays like "buttah". I do NOT recommend doing this on an instrument that's still in warranty.

In an acoustic action, the letoff point is where the jack is being flipped up against the hammer butt or knuckle to send the hammer into the string free to rebound unimpeded. The hammer is actually accelerated into the string slightly by this motion. The player feels the letoff resistance in the fingers when playing softly and it actually improves the sense of control for p and pp playing. In the GF2 action, the letoff feel is replicated, but the effect on the hammer traveling to the sensor (string) is the opposite of that in an acoustic action. The letoff bumper actually creates an impediment for the hammer travel that must be overcome. I think this actually reduces the control of p and pp playing. I would rather have no letoff feel than one that reduces control.

I think this is the problem the piano teacher is having with the CA58 in the video posted earlier in the thread. You can see that for some of the "dead spots" she describes, she's stopping her playing of the note before the key is fully down. I bet she's feeling the resistance of the letoff bumper at that point. This is exactly the problem I was having.

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779608
11/09/18 05:06 PM
11/09/18 05:06 PM
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I have the same exact issues as the OP with my CA97 grand feel II that I bought a few years ago. WILDLY inconsistent let-off. Almost imperceptible on some keys and extremely noticeable on others to the point where playing softly results in dropped/silent notes. Clicking key noise....present on several keys which is annoying because I can hear it with my headphones on. Muffled/muddled sound.

Kawai has serious QC issues. And don't buy into Kawai James' b.s. that this is shipping related/etc. The CA97 I bought was different from the one I tried in the store, and both had clicky keys/key issues. Some guy a while ago said he bought a Kawai with key issues, returned it, was delivered another one with key issues, returned it, and the third one also had key issues. Ridiculous. Am I being picky? Maybe, but if you want to call something your flagship piano, then this kind of stuff is unacceptable in my opinion. Sooner than later, I hope to get rid of my piano. Never will buy a Kawai again.

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779618
11/09/18 06:02 PM
11/09/18 06:02 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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Yes please stop rewarding manufacturers with poor QC by buying their products. At this point there's a consensus that Kawai DPs have the most QC issues. Unless you live close (within 25Km) to a Kawai repair centre and have a decent 5Yr+ warranty, the Kawai DPs just don't make sense, despite the realism of their sound and action.



Yamaha P-125, Pianoteq 6, Ravenscroft 275 VST, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779626
11/09/18 06:39 PM
11/09/18 06:39 PM
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slobajudge Offline
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Originally Posted by Rohit04062
Another option I've seen on YouTube is to manually remove the escapement feature to make the keybed more consistent.

Can you provide that link ? Thanks in advance. Greatly appreciated

Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: slobajudge] #2779809
11/10/18 12:55 PM
11/10/18 12:55 PM
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Manchester, UK
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Rohit04062 Offline OP
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I can't find the video anymore but here is a similar video that talks about adding a ptfe layer
https://youtu.be/KsziolVG34Y

Last edited by Rohit04062; 11/10/18 12:55 PM.
Re: Kawai ca78 (grand feel 2) problems with action [Re: Rohit04062] #2779813
11/10/18 01:04 PM
11/10/18 01:04 PM
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Rohit04062 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Andy R
Originally Posted by Rohit04062
[quote=JoBert]I'm going to suggest the reverse from shirl laugh

Another option I've seen on YouTube is to manually remove the escapement feature to make the keybed more consistent.


Removing the rubber letoff bumpers from my GF2 action solved the issue for me. Now the action plays like "buttah". I do NOT recommend doing this on an instrument that's still in warranty.

In an acoustic action, the letoff point is where the jack is being flipped up against the hammer butt or knuckle to send the hammer into the string free to rebound unimpeded. The hammer is actually accelerated into the string slightly by this motion. The player feels the letoff resistance in the fingers when playing softly and it actually improves the sense of control for p and pp playing. In the GF2 action, the letoff feel is replicated, but the effect on the hammer traveling to the sensor (string) is the opposite of that in an acoustic action. The letoff bumper actually creates an impediment for the hammer travel that must be overcome. I think this actually reduces the control of p and pp playing. I would rather have no letoff feel than one that reduces control.

I think this is the problem the piano teacher is having with the CA58 in the video posted earlier in the thread. You can see that for some of the "dead spots" she describes, she's stopping her playing of the note before the key is fully down. I bet she's feeling the resistance of the letoff bumper at that point. This is exactly the problem I was having.


How did that impact the action and feel of the keyboard in general? Did you lose the escapement? Were there any negative impacts to doing what you did?

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