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Buying advice (max. €2000) #2771777
10/12/18 08:35 AM
10/12/18 08:35 AM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Hi everyone,

actually I am noone who likes to just shout out all of his thoughts and then ask for help, but after extensive research, I came to the conclusion that it is just impossible to know everything about the digital piano market, and that help from this forum would be really helpfull.

This is a really long post, so here is a TL:DR: Option
I want a DP (no portable) that has good action, good speaker power and a nice sound (subjective). My budget is carved in stone at the max of €2000.
The piano should be capable of recording songs, and if the apps are usable on Android that would be prefered,

I know that there is no other option than to go into the store and play a lot. But since this forum is full of experienced people, maybe someone has thoughts about my thoughts or stuff that I should consider?
Questions that I have would include information about new models (should I wait for the new Roland series? Is there anything else coming), or if it is common in the DP-Market that you find "Christmas-Sales" or if the prices are more or less stable troughout the year?

Any opininion is really welcome smile



Backstory: I accidentaly (had no idea back then) bought an Yamaha-PSR 433 Stagekeyboard some years ago, because I wanted to learn playing the piano (obviously). Since app. 2 years now I play quite regularily, write songs, learn theory and all this stuff. Its quite safte to say, that it is my primary hobby. Of course a 66keys Keyboard with no weighted keys, starts being not enough after some time.
This is even more true, because I want to take lessons now, and want to practice on something "real". We all want real pianos, but we have other people around us and are not rich - so a DP it is.#

The road so far ((c) Supernatural): after my first research I was quite impressed by the YDP-163 from Yamaha. I was born in Austria, so a BösendorferSound also sounded really nice.
At this time I had set my budget around €1000. But then I thought, ok, it is my primary hobby and if you see it from month to month, its cheaper than a lot of other hobbies.
So one thing led to another, but for my own protection I now said that my ABSOLUTE limit is €2000 (incl. shipping and maybe a bench). This will be the price I will be offering the vendor of course, and I am pretty sure, if some DP says €2100 most vendors will take that, instead of loosing a sale (i hate negotiating, but im willing to do so).

Since my budget is quite wide (I think that around €1000 I get soething good, and the max is €2000) there are loads of pianos to choose from.

What is important to me:
The feeling of the keys
The piano sound (both Headphones and speakers). But tbh I know that this is the most subjective part. I have even heard grand pianos, where I did not LOVE the sound.
the look
the "power" of the sound. I think that a lot of DPs lack the WHAAAM!-Feeling if the speakers are not strong enough.
Easy recording options

I never thought about Apps or other sounds THAT much, but since most of the pianos on my list have a lot of them, thats cool to have.
And I am pretty sure, you can use these learning apps quite good!

The DP should also be able to be diassembled by myself, since I WILL move at least once more in the next years.



At first I also thought about using a portable DP (P515, FP90, ES8) which I am sure are great, but tbh: since the day I started playing more I always missed the feeling of playing the piano on something real-looking.
I do understand that there is some effort from the manufacturers with imitating that with stands, but none of them gives me a feeling like a CLP eg. (ES8 has the best style her imo)
So that leaves us with:

Roland
HP 601 1679
HP 603 €1890
HP605 seen at around €2100

Yamaha
YDP163 €1000
CLP635 €1659
CLP645 €2179
CLP625 1249

Kawai
CN 27 €1169
CN37 €1398
CA 58 €2099
CA 48 €1789


What I have experienced so far (reading forums and playing in the store):

Roland
A lot of people seem to have problems with the sound of Roland. TbH I find it hard to tell if I love it or cant stand it. After listening more
I am quite sure I like it, and I like the modelling options and the keyaction (I could play an FP90). What I especially liked (and some one else in the forum mentioned that) is
that with the modelling I have the feel of a very strong connections with the piano. It seems to be able to translate emotion into sound, and tbh - I love that a lot.
I think that maybe the speakers of the FP90 were to weak to fully display the sound-capability. I will play the 603/605 again to be sure.

What I really liked about Roland was that the Apps are avaliable for Android and the 10years of guarantee. 10 years really stands out.

Yamaha
For me the power of the 163 did not seem strong enough, and that may be due to the speakers. And tbh I dont want to buy a DP which I have to upgrade with external speakers.
I could play the 635 and 645 and did not feel THAT much of a difference. But maybe I am to inexperienced for that, since I think that the NWX-action is the more future proof.
The keys were indeed quite heavy, but I have no rating for that, it IS just like that - i would not say that I like or dislike that. I also did like the sound both of CFX and Bösendorfer.

Bad thing is the app only for Ios, but at least there is something for Android possible as it seems.

Kawai
I do have to try them out more extensively. I tried some of the in the store, and I did like the sound and action. Some people (actually not just a few) seem to love the sound and the action and say its the best.
This is the main reason, I am going to try them out once more. Because actually I put them aside, since (and I dont just make that up in my head) I read TOO much posts about quality issues with the keys. As you may guess from my overthinking in regards of this topic €2000 is possible for me but it is
a lot of money. And I dont want to have problems with such an investement, and I also do not want to argue with someone about if this is wear and tear after 2years. Does anyone know if there is a possibility for written guaranttee from Kawai that this issue will be covered by the warranty? I think without that Kawai is no option for me.
I also was quite mad, that the apps (which are just a gadget, but a cool one) are only availiable for iOs.

Why am I writing this? (copied from above)
I know that there is no other option than to go into the store and play a lot. But since this forum is full of experienced people, maybe someone has thoughts about my thoughts or stuff that I should consider?
Questions that I have would include information about new models (should I wait for the new Roland series? Is there anything else coming), or if it is common in the DP-Market that you find "Christmas-Sales" or if the prices are more or less stable troughout the year?
Any opininion is really welcome smile

So this is where I stand. I plan to use the opinions on this thread and some time in the store again to trim down the list to 3 Pianos and then play them each for around an hour in the store with and without HQ-Headphones (I am allowed to do that and would take a day off). Then the negotiations starts smile



So then - sorry for the long post and all the best from Germany
Markus

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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771782
10/12/18 08:49 AM
10/12/18 08:49 AM
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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Schuberto] #2771784
10/12/18 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Schuberto] #2771798
10/12/18 09:39 AM
10/12/18 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Schuberto


If the OP can buy this and get it shipped from Germany relatively cheaply, this is a good deal.

However Markuska, I suggest if you can, get yourself over to a music store with lots of digital pianos and try out these instruments before you rush out and buy one. Then, you will know which one you prefer!


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Doug M.] #2771799
10/12/18 09:42 AM
10/12/18 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Schuberto


If the OP can buy this and get it shipped from Germany relatively cheaply, this is a good deal.

However Markuska, I suggest if you can, get yourself over to a music store with lots of digital pianos and try out these instruments before you rush out and buy one. Then, you will know which one you prefer!


Markuska lives in Germany, so he could go test it and even bring it home by himself.
He should go and try a CA-98 in a shop and if he likes the action and the soundboard acoustics, he can then try and get a/the CA-97, imho.

Last edited by Schuberto; 10/12/18 09:44 AM.
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771806
10/12/18 10:05 AM
10/12/18 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771820
10/12/18 11:18 AM
10/12/18 11:18 AM
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Markuska, I hear you’re a noone; please do elaborate, for I’ve never met a noone in person.
Welcome to the forum.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: JoBert] #2771821
10/12/18 11:22 AM
10/12/18 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Also the warranty (at least in the UK) has a nice little clause:

(d) To defects or discolouration of any part of the instrument including keys, pedals, controls and switches caused by normal wear and tear, moisture, body salts and acids of perspiration.

So basically if Roland deem the issue as wear and tear kiss that warranty goodbye..


https://www.roland.com/uk/company/company_policy/10_year_warranty/

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: JoBert] #2771833
10/12/18 11:50 AM
10/12/18 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Are you sure about that?

There is an EU directive that states that a warranty applies to a product for a minimum of 2 years (it can be more; I think it is 5 years for some Kawai DPs). This warranty must be honoured by the trader who sold the product or by the manufacturer. This warranty is independent of the product owner as it applies to the product itself.

A different situation also defined in the directive applies to selling second hand products. If a legal trader sells a second hand product, then the same 2 year warranty rules apply (it can be reduced to 1 year in some cases, but no less). But if a private individual sells a second hand product, then the individual is not required to provide any kind of additional warranty. So, buying a second hand product that is already out of warranty from a trader will get you a whole new 1-2 year warranty. But if you but it from a private individual, you get no warranty. But, if the original product warranty is still valid, the current owner should be able to use it.

If Kawai offers an exteded 5 year warranty, then the EU directive applies for the first 2 years. After that 2 year period the conditions depend on the contract, and I expect them to be more restrictive.

Now, I am not sure how this EU directive was translated into the German Law, but, unless there is some special provision in place, the rules should be similar. Anyway I will try to find this directive in the europa.eu site and check itf there are some additional conditions.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771840
10/12/18 12:04 PM
10/12/18 12:04 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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@Pete14: damn theres even a blog entry dedicated to that^^
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/no-one-noone/


@arc7urus
that is the difference between warranty and "Gewährleistung" (whatever it is called in english)
Warranty is from the seller at his own terms, "Gewährleistung" is legal (2years, but in fact 6months, since after that time you have to prove that the issue was there beforehand).

@the Kawai in Hamburg. Hamburg is too far (I live in Dresden) and tbh I want something new and deliverd to my floor^^
any thoughts on the key issue?

And thanks to everyone who already answered!

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771844
10/12/18 12:18 PM
10/12/18 12:18 PM
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Pete14 Online content
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I must say, the noones in Narnia were very convincing, but I now see you’re not a living noone. It was simply a typo! grin

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: arc7urus] #2771858
10/12/18 01:34 PM
10/12/18 01:34 PM
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Germany
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Are you sure about that?

Yep, check Kawai's 5 year warranty terms (for Germany).

As already explained, you are mixing up (Händler-)Gewährleistung (actually "Sachmängelhaftung") und Garantie (given by the manufacturer). The latter is entirely voluntary, at whatever terms the manufacturer sets. And the two are entirely separate, i.e. the Gewährleistung is not simply the first two years of the Garantie. The manufacturer may even opt to give no Garantie at all, in which case you have only the legally mandated Gewährleistung from the vendor. The latter can be transferred to the new owner, as you say, but it isn't transferred automatically IIRC. And with the Beweislastumkehr after 6 months, I wouldn't put too much trust into it for such an item (if the piano even is younger than 2 years).

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771905
10/12/18 03:52 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Btw.: does anyone have an idea if the release of the new Roland series will have an impact on the LX ans HP prices. Are there past experiences?

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: JoBert] #2771925
10/12/18 05:02 PM
10/12/18 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Are you sure about that?

Yep, check Kawai's 5 year warranty terms (for Germany).

As already explained, you are mixing up (Händler-)Gewährleistung (actually "Sachmängelhaftung") und Garantie (given by the manufacturer). The latter is entirely voluntary, at whatever terms the manufacturer sets. And the two are entirely separate, i.e. the Gewährleistung is not simply the first two years of the Garantie. The manufacturer may even opt to give no Garantie at all, in which case you have only the legally mandated Gewährleistung from the vendor. The latter can be transferred to the new owner, as you say, but it isn't transferred automatically IIRC. And with the Beweislastumkehr after 6 months, I wouldn't put too much trust into it for such an item (if the piano even is younger than 2 years).


You are right. The EU directive is about the mandatory 2-year "Gewährleistung" (legal warranty). The Garantie (commercial guarantee) is a separate concept and entirely optional. However if a Garantie (commercial guarantee) exists, then it can never replace or reduce the conditions of the Gewährleistung (legal warranty) during the first 2 years. After that period ends, the Garantie can set any conditions. But the Gewährleistung applies to the product itself and the concept of "owner" or "transference of ownership" does not apply. Therefore, the Gewährleistung is valid for a product for a period of 2 years regardless of the owner. But, as you said, it would be difficult to get a repair or refund through a Gewährleistung (legal warranty) after the first six months.

I just read the Kawai conditions for Germany and they do state that the 5-year Garantie is not transferable and that any claims must be done by the client on the original receipt. But the Gewährleistung/legal warranty conditions would still be valid for two years, regardless of the owner.

Once again, thanks for the clarification.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2774377
10/21/18 03:39 PM
10/21/18 03:39 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Because that just came to my head and I did not wanted to make a new thread:
Is it basically possible to ADD speakers to DPs (in addition to the built in ones) or do you REPLACE them as a whole?

Btw atm I will wait until around Christmas to finally decide - will tell my decision and reasons here then ofc.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779300
11/08/18 01:55 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Update (this is kind of my piano buying diary): "Accidentally" I had the chance to play some of the DPs yesterday. Included were CN17/27/37 a CA58, a CLP545 and the new P515, and the ES8 (and some grands that were in the store, but damn these are expensive).

The most surprising thing was that at the few times I hit the keys I did not like the P515 that much, neither the 675. TbH the P515 was attached on a shelf quite losely, so I will definately have to check that again. Regarding the 675 is just did not like the keys, but ive been hearing that actually many people prefer the 645.

The Kawai were more or less all amazing and a good reason I am not "afraid" anymore, since there seem to be many DPs in my range, that I am perfectly fine with. I did not like the Action of the CA58 though, it felt kinda spongy, but that is highly subjective.

What I LOVED was the ES8. Sound, Action, Looks - just good. I was anxious that a Stagepiano cant look good, but Kawai really did a great job with the stand (allthough its pricey as heck).

Coming up: There is another store here in Dresden, that seems to still have an "old" CA67, I am definately trying that one. Another store has the HP605, hopefully soon an LX705, CLP645 and some other stuff that I will try again (P515). And one of the stores I visited yesterday is going to get CA78 and 98 soon, but these seem to be a bit out of the budget.

TL:DR: I am still going to try something, but tbh it will be hard for the opponents to match the ES8, that one was REALLY nice.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779323
11/08/18 03:33 PM
11/08/18 03:33 PM
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I just ordered …. and returned …. he Yamaha P-515 and put another E8 (I had one previously) on order.

I liked everything about the Yamaha P-515 except the sound. There was a metallic sound at the end of tones that I could not abide.

I know the ES8 and it is just too good to give up.


Don

Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course - Completed Chapter 5

Pianoteq, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779331
11/08/18 03:59 PM
11/08/18 03:59 PM
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What i would do with 2000€ budget: yamaha ydp163 1000€, 1 year of piano lessons 1000€.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779360
11/08/18 05:52 PM
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I own the Yamaha CLP-645 and I must say that Yamaha does have some of the heaviest keys on their more expensive pianos. The NWX is probably slightly lighter than the GH3 on the 635. I think the 645 also has one of the best (if not the best) sound system among DPs in its price range.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779417
11/08/18 10:50 PM
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Roland HP 605. I've got it!

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779424
11/08/18 11:41 PM
11/08/18 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Markuska
Because that just came to my head and I did not wanted to make a new thread:
Is it basically possible to ADD speakers to DPs (in addition to the built in ones) or do you REPLACE them as a whole?

Btw atm I will wait until around Christmas to finally decide - will tell my decision and reasons here then ofc.


I've never heard of anyone replacing the loudspeakers. You'd probably want to replace the amplifiers as well -- unless you're really good with electronic design and repair, I wouldn't advise that.

You can _add_ a pair of "powered monitor speakers" (with built-in amplifiers), and run two cables from the "Line Out" jacks of the DP to the loudspeakers. It's easy, that way. Many of us (including me) have done it.

The HP605 has 37 watts per channel (left and right channels), and 12cm woofers. So, for better sound, you would want more power, and larger woofers.

There are many makers, and no single "best choice". Common suggestions here are the JBL LSR305 or LSR308, or the Yamaha HS5 / HS7 / HS8. The LSR308 has been replaced by the JBL "Professional 308P MKII 8". With over 100 watts per speaker, and 8" woofers, that should give you some righteous sound.

There may be other brands and models available in Europe. Thomann probably has everything.

Have fun!


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779425
11/09/18 12:09 AM
11/09/18 12:09 AM
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Cabinet and Console DPs are usually designed to be self sufficient sound wise (HP605's 37 Watts per channel is very decent for a small living room). Having said that, most will have line outs and will give you the option to toggle the internal speakers OFF/ON while external speakers are attached. I highly recommend that you consult the user manual of whichever DP you are considering to find out more about how (or if) it implements this functionality.

If you are going the path of using external speakers, I recommend that you check out stage pianos without internal speakers at all such as the RD2000.


Yamaha P-125, Roland GO:Piano, Pianoteq 6, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Angelos58] #2779555
11/09/18 01:47 PM
11/09/18 01:47 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Markuska  Online Content OP
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Originally Posted by dmd
I just ordered …. and returned …. he Yamaha P-515 and put another E8 (I had one previously) on order.

I liked everything about the Yamaha P-515 except the sound. There was a metallic sound at the end of tones that I could not abide.

I know the ES8 and it is just too good to give up.



And the price! I really fell in love with that one!

Originally Posted by Snail
What i would do with 2000€ budget: yamaha ydp163 1000€, 1 year of piano lessons 1000€.

Thats actually something I have thought of myself - everything that remains from my budget goes into lessons.

Originally Posted by Angelos58
Roland HP 605. I've got it!

I have a feeling that that one will be the strongest competitor. I played the FP90 and loved the action and the connection between me and the DP. But I have a (highly subjective) feeling that Rolands technology kinda NEEDS powerfull speakers, but that is just a feeling, but maybe I can test it tomorrow.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2780020
11/11/18 08:04 AM
11/11/18 08:04 AM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Markuska  Online Content OP
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Next Update: Had the third time of testing now.

Roland: Unfortunately when listening for the second time, I did not like the Roland sound, neither on the FP90, nor the HP605. Expected to like them more.

Yamaha: I tried the P-515 and again, did not like the sound that much, but I think that was due to the speakers maybe? What I think was funny is, that I tried the 645 again and was not that happy with it. Just for fun, I tried the 635 again and liked it much more. Talk about the need to try instead of reading specs.

Kawai: Tbh at the beginning, due to the amount of issues I read on PW I was against Kawai, but that cant be said anymore. I tested CN17/27/37 CA67//48 ES8 and I liked ALL of them (well the CA98 I tested was the best, but I am not that wealthy^^). Especially the CA48 and CN37 were really nice. I will be able to test an CA58 next time, this is in the top price range, but if its perfect - why not? I also really liked the CA67 which many people placed high above the 48, but its around €2500 and I did not have the feeling like "WOW, I NEED that". Again, this clearly shows how subjective this issue is.

So (with the possibility of maybe the LX705 if it arrives on time), its more or less narrowed down to:
CLP635
CN37
CA48
CA58 ( I think I should be able to negotiate that to around €1900?)
ES8

Maybe I will even get "only" the CN17/27 if I am happy enough and will invest the money in some lessons.
Cant wait, I want to have it before christmas.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2780029
11/11/18 08:48 AM
11/11/18 08:48 AM
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Nordomus Offline
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Originally Posted by Markuska


Roland: Unfortunately when listening for the second time, I did not like the Roland sound, neither on the FP90, nor the HP605. Expected to like them more.

So (with the possibility of maybe the LX705 if it arrives on time), its more or less narrowed down to:


Try to play with settings a bit on HP 605, also it would be probably best to wait for LX 705, newest technology 90% of times is always better.
And if you order it earlier you should get it on time. My local shop already let me know there is LX 708 wating in warehouse.

Last edited by Nordomus; 11/11/18 08:50 AM.
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Nordomus] #2780134
11/11/18 03:21 PM
11/11/18 03:21 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Markuska  Online Content OP
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Markuska


Roland: Unfortunately when listening for the second time, I did not like the Roland sound, neither on the FP90, nor the HP605. Expected to like them more.

So (with the possibility of maybe the LX705 if it arrives on time), its more or less narrowed down to:


Try to play with settings a bit on HP 605, also it would be probably best to wait for LX 705, newest technology 90% of times is always better.
And if you order it earlier you should get it on time. My local shop already let me know there is LX 708 wating in warehouse.



Any recommendations? It just sounded a bit dull/weak.

Theres a CA67 floor modell here, which they sell for 2500. But since Ive seen a Bstock CA67 for €1999 somewhere online, maybe I could make such a deal? Does €2000 for a CA67 sound nice. Allthough this would be the top of the budget...


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