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Buying advice (max. €2000) #2771777
10/12/18 09:35 AM
10/12/18 09:35 AM
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Germany
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Markuska Online content OP
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Hi everyone,

actually I am noone who likes to just shout out all of his thoughts and then ask for help, but after extensive research, I came to the conclusion that it is just impossible to know everything about the digital piano market, and that help from this forum would be really helpfull.

This is a really long post, so here is a TL:DR: Option
I want a DP (no portable) that has good action, good speaker power and a nice sound (subjective). My budget is carved in stone at the max of €2000.
The piano should be capable of recording songs, and if the apps are usable on Android that would be prefered,

I know that there is no other option than to go into the store and play a lot. But since this forum is full of experienced people, maybe someone has thoughts about my thoughts or stuff that I should consider?
Questions that I have would include information about new models (should I wait for the new Roland series? Is there anything else coming), or if it is common in the DP-Market that you find "Christmas-Sales" or if the prices are more or less stable troughout the year?

Any opininion is really welcome smile



Backstory: I accidentaly (had no idea back then) bought an Yamaha-PSR 433 Stagekeyboard some years ago, because I wanted to learn playing the piano (obviously). Since app. 2 years now I play quite regularily, write songs, learn theory and all this stuff. Its quite safte to say, that it is my primary hobby. Of course a 66keys Keyboard with no weighted keys, starts being not enough after some time.
This is even more true, because I want to take lessons now, and want to practice on something "real". We all want real pianos, but we have other people around us and are not rich - so a DP it is.#

The road so far ((c) Supernatural): after my first research I was quite impressed by the YDP-163 from Yamaha. I was born in Austria, so a BösendorferSound also sounded really nice.
At this time I had set my budget around €1000. But then I thought, ok, it is my primary hobby and if you see it from month to month, its cheaper than a lot of other hobbies.
So one thing led to another, but for my own protection I now said that my ABSOLUTE limit is €2000 (incl. shipping and maybe a bench). This will be the price I will be offering the vendor of course, and I am pretty sure, if some DP says €2100 most vendors will take that, instead of loosing a sale (i hate negotiating, but im willing to do so).

Since my budget is quite wide (I think that around €1000 I get soething good, and the max is €2000) there are loads of pianos to choose from.

What is important to me:
The feeling of the keys
The piano sound (both Headphones and speakers). But tbh I know that this is the most subjective part. I have even heard grand pianos, where I did not LOVE the sound.
the look
the "power" of the sound. I think that a lot of DPs lack the WHAAAM!-Feeling if the speakers are not strong enough.
Easy recording options

I never thought about Apps or other sounds THAT much, but since most of the pianos on my list have a lot of them, thats cool to have.
And I am pretty sure, you can use these learning apps quite good!

The DP should also be able to be diassembled by myself, since I WILL move at least once more in the next years.



At first I also thought about using a portable DP (P515, FP90, ES8) which I am sure are great, but tbh: since the day I started playing more I always missed the feeling of playing the piano on something real-looking.
I do understand that there is some effort from the manufacturers with imitating that with stands, but none of them gives me a feeling like a CLP eg. (ES8 has the best style her imo)
So that leaves us with:

Roland
HP 601 1679
HP 603 €1890
HP605 seen at around €2100

Yamaha
YDP163 €1000
CLP635 €1659
CLP645 €2179
CLP625 1249

Kawai
CN 27 €1169
CN37 €1398
CA 58 €2099
CA 48 €1789


What I have experienced so far (reading forums and playing in the store):

Roland
A lot of people seem to have problems with the sound of Roland. TbH I find it hard to tell if I love it or cant stand it. After listening more
I am quite sure I like it, and I like the modelling options and the keyaction (I could play an FP90). What I especially liked (and some one else in the forum mentioned that) is
that with the modelling I have the feel of a very strong connections with the piano. It seems to be able to translate emotion into sound, and tbh - I love that a lot.
I think that maybe the speakers of the FP90 were to weak to fully display the sound-capability. I will play the 603/605 again to be sure.

What I really liked about Roland was that the Apps are avaliable for Android and the 10years of guarantee. 10 years really stands out.

Yamaha
For me the power of the 163 did not seem strong enough, and that may be due to the speakers. And tbh I dont want to buy a DP which I have to upgrade with external speakers.
I could play the 635 and 645 and did not feel THAT much of a difference. But maybe I am to inexperienced for that, since I think that the NWX-action is the more future proof.
The keys were indeed quite heavy, but I have no rating for that, it IS just like that - i would not say that I like or dislike that. I also did like the sound both of CFX and Bösendorfer.

Bad thing is the app only for Ios, but at least there is something for Android possible as it seems.

Kawai
I do have to try them out more extensively. I tried some of the in the store, and I did like the sound and action. Some people (actually not just a few) seem to love the sound and the action and say its the best.
This is the main reason, I am going to try them out once more. Because actually I put them aside, since (and I dont just make that up in my head) I read TOO much posts about quality issues with the keys. As you may guess from my overthinking in regards of this topic €2000 is possible for me but it is
a lot of money. And I dont want to have problems with such an investement, and I also do not want to argue with someone about if this is wear and tear after 2years. Does anyone know if there is a possibility for written guaranttee from Kawai that this issue will be covered by the warranty? I think without that Kawai is no option for me.
I also was quite mad, that the apps (which are just a gadget, but a cool one) are only availiable for iOs.

Why am I writing this? (copied from above)
I know that there is no other option than to go into the store and play a lot. But since this forum is full of experienced people, maybe someone has thoughts about my thoughts or stuff that I should consider?
Questions that I have would include information about new models (should I wait for the new Roland series? Is there anything else coming), or if it is common in the DP-Market that you find "Christmas-Sales" or if the prices are more or less stable troughout the year?
Any opininion is really welcome smile

So this is where I stand. I plan to use the opinions on this thread and some time in the store again to trim down the list to 3 Pianos and then play them each for around an hour in the store with and without HQ-Headphones (I am allowed to do that and would take a day off). Then the negotiations starts smile



So then - sorry for the long post and all the best from Germany
Markus

(ad) ROLAND

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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771782
10/12/18 09:49 AM
10/12/18 09:49 AM
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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Schuberto] #2771784
10/12/18 09:54 AM
10/12/18 09:54 AM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Schuberto] #2771798
10/12/18 10:39 AM
10/12/18 10:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by Schuberto


If the OP can buy this and get it shipped from Germany relatively cheaply, this is a good deal.

However Markuska, I suggest if you can, get yourself over to a music store with lots of digital pianos and try out these instruments before you rush out and buy one. Then, you will know which one you prefer!


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Doug M.] #2771799
10/12/18 10:42 AM
10/12/18 10:42 AM
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Schuberto Offline
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Schuberto


If the OP can buy this and get it shipped from Germany relatively cheaply, this is a good deal.

However Markuska, I suggest if you can, get yourself over to a music store with lots of digital pianos and try out these instruments before you rush out and buy one. Then, you will know which one you prefer!


Markuska lives in Germany, so he could go test it and even bring it home by himself.
He should go and try a CA-98 in a shop and if he likes the action and the soundboard acoustics, he can then try and get a/the CA-97, imho.

Last edited by Schuberto; 10/12/18 10:44 AM.
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771806
10/12/18 11:05 AM
10/12/18 11:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,032
Germany
JoBert Offline
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771820
10/12/18 12:18 PM
10/12/18 12:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
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Pete14 Online content
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Markuska, I hear you’re a noone; please do elaborate, for I’ve never met a noone in person.
Welcome to the forum.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: JoBert] #2771821
10/12/18 12:22 PM
10/12/18 12:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 332
UK
jamiecw Offline
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Also the warranty (at least in the UK) has a nice little clause:

(d) To defects or discolouration of any part of the instrument including keys, pedals, controls and switches caused by normal wear and tear, moisture, body salts and acids of perspiration.

So basically if Roland deem the issue as wear and tear kiss that warranty goodbye..


https://www.roland.com/uk/company/company_policy/10_year_warranty/

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: JoBert] #2771833
10/12/18 12:50 PM
10/12/18 12:50 PM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Are you sure about that?

There is an EU directive that states that a warranty applies to a product for a minimum of 2 years (it can be more; I think it is 5 years for some Kawai DPs). This warranty must be honoured by the trader who sold the product or by the manufacturer. This warranty is independent of the product owner as it applies to the product itself.

A different situation also defined in the directive applies to selling second hand products. If a legal trader sells a second hand product, then the same 2 year warranty rules apply (it can be reduced to 1 year in some cases, but no less). But if a private individual sells a second hand product, then the individual is not required to provide any kind of additional warranty. So, buying a second hand product that is already out of warranty from a trader will get you a whole new 1-2 year warranty. But if you but it from a private individual, you get no warranty. But, if the original product warranty is still valid, the current owner should be able to use it.

If Kawai offers an exteded 5 year warranty, then the EU directive applies for the first 2 years. After that 2 year period the conditions depend on the contract, and I expect them to be more restrictive.

Now, I am not sure how this EU directive was translated into the German Law, but, unless there is some special provision in place, the rules should be similar. Anyway I will try to find this directive in the europa.eu site and check itf there are some additional conditions.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771840
10/12/18 01:04 PM
10/12/18 01:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 240
Germany
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Markuska Online content OP
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Germany
@Pete14: damn theres even a blog entry dedicated to that^^
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/no-one-noone/


@arc7urus
that is the difference between warranty and "Gewährleistung" (whatever it is called in english)
Warranty is from the seller at his own terms, "Gewährleistung" is legal (2years, but in fact 6months, since after that time you have to prove that the issue was there beforehand).

@the Kawai in Hamburg. Hamburg is too far (I live in Dresden) and tbh I want something new and deliverd to my floor^^
any thoughts on the key issue?

And thanks to everyone who already answered!

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771844
10/12/18 01:18 PM
10/12/18 01:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
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Pete14 Online content
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I must say, the noones in Narnia were very convincing, but I now see you’re not a living noone. It was simply a typo! grin

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: arc7urus] #2771858
10/12/18 02:34 PM
10/12/18 02:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,032
Germany
JoBert Offline
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Are you sure about that?

Yep, check Kawai's 5 year warranty terms (for Germany).

As already explained, you are mixing up (Händler-)Gewährleistung (actually "Sachmängelhaftung") und Garantie (given by the manufacturer). The latter is entirely voluntary, at whatever terms the manufacturer sets. And the two are entirely separate, i.e. the Gewährleistung is not simply the first two years of the Garantie. The manufacturer may even opt to give no Garantie at all, in which case you have only the legally mandated Gewährleistung from the vendor. The latter can be transferred to the new owner, as you say, but it isn't transferred automatically IIRC. And with the Beweislastumkehr after 6 months, I wouldn't put too much trust into it for such an item (if the piano even is younger than 2 years).

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771905
10/12/18 04:52 PM
10/12/18 04:52 PM
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Germany
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Markuska Online content OP
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Btw.: does anyone have an idea if the release of the new Roland series will have an impact on the LX ans HP prices. Are there past experiences?

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: JoBert] #2771925
10/12/18 06:02 PM
10/12/18 06:02 PM
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Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Are you sure about that?

Yep, check Kawai's 5 year warranty terms (for Germany).

As already explained, you are mixing up (Händler-)Gewährleistung (actually "Sachmängelhaftung") und Garantie (given by the manufacturer). The latter is entirely voluntary, at whatever terms the manufacturer sets. And the two are entirely separate, i.e. the Gewährleistung is not simply the first two years of the Garantie. The manufacturer may even opt to give no Garantie at all, in which case you have only the legally mandated Gewährleistung from the vendor. The latter can be transferred to the new owner, as you say, but it isn't transferred automatically IIRC. And with the Beweislastumkehr after 6 months, I wouldn't put too much trust into it for such an item (if the piano even is younger than 2 years).


You are right. The EU directive is about the mandatory 2-year "Gewährleistung" (legal warranty). The Garantie (commercial guarantee) is a separate concept and entirely optional. However if a Garantie (commercial guarantee) exists, then it can never replace or reduce the conditions of the Gewährleistung (legal warranty) during the first 2 years. After that period ends, the Garantie can set any conditions. But the Gewährleistung applies to the product itself and the concept of "owner" or "transference of ownership" does not apply. Therefore, the Gewährleistung is valid for a product for a period of 2 years regardless of the owner. But, as you said, it would be difficult to get a repair or refund through a Gewährleistung (legal warranty) after the first six months.

I just read the Kawai conditions for Germany and they do state that the 5-year Garantie is not transferable and that any claims must be done by the client on the original receipt. But the Gewährleistung/legal warranty conditions would still be valid for two years, regardless of the owner.

Once again, thanks for the clarification.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2774377
10/21/18 04:39 PM
10/21/18 04:39 PM
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Germany
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Markuska Online content OP
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Because that just came to my head and I did not wanted to make a new thread:
Is it basically possible to ADD speakers to DPs (in addition to the built in ones) or do you REPLACE them as a whole?

Btw atm I will wait until around Christmas to finally decide - will tell my decision and reasons here then ofc.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779300
11/08/18 02:55 PM
11/08/18 02:55 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Update (this is kind of my piano buying diary): "Accidentally" I had the chance to play some of the DPs yesterday. Included were CN17/27/37 a CA58, a CLP545 and the new P515, and the ES8 (and some grands that were in the store, but damn these are expensive).

The most surprising thing was that at the few times I hit the keys I did not like the P515 that much, neither the 675. TbH the P515 was attached on a shelf quite losely, so I will definately have to check that again. Regarding the 675 is just did not like the keys, but ive been hearing that actually many people prefer the 645.

The Kawai were more or less all amazing and a good reason I am not "afraid" anymore, since there seem to be many DPs in my range, that I am perfectly fine with. I did not like the Action of the CA58 though, it felt kinda spongy, but that is highly subjective.

What I LOVED was the ES8. Sound, Action, Looks - just good. I was anxious that a Stagepiano cant look good, but Kawai really did a great job with the stand (allthough its pricey as heck).

Coming up: There is another store here in Dresden, that seems to still have an "old" CA67, I am definately trying that one. Another store has the HP605, hopefully soon an LX705, CLP645 and some other stuff that I will try again (P515). And one of the stores I visited yesterday is going to get CA78 and 98 soon, but these seem to be a bit out of the budget.

TL:DR: I am still going to try something, but tbh it will be hard for the opponents to match the ES8, that one was REALLY nice.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779323
11/08/18 04:33 PM
11/08/18 04:33 PM
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dmd Offline
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I just ordered …. and returned …. he Yamaha P-515 and put another E8 (I had one previously) on order.

I liked everything about the Yamaha P-515 except the sound. There was a metallic sound at the end of tones that I could not abide.

I know the ES8 and it is just too good to give up.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779331
11/08/18 04:59 PM
11/08/18 04:59 PM
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What i would do with 2000€ budget: yamaha ydp163 1000€, 1 year of piano lessons 1000€.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779360
11/08/18 06:52 PM
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I own the Yamaha CLP-645 and I must say that Yamaha does have some of the heaviest keys on their more expensive pianos. The NWX is probably slightly lighter than the GH3 on the 635. I think the 645 also has one of the best (if not the best) sound system among DPs in its price range.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779417
11/08/18 11:50 PM
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Roland HP 605. I've got it!

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