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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: IosPlayer] #2779048
11/07/18 04:46 PM
11/07/18 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer
I have become curious about this issue. I searched the web for problems with the NV10'and could only find PianoWorld. There were a couple of German posts but the problem didn't seem to be about speakers. Shouldn't there be more of a ruckus? It sounds like a widespread problem.

Also I found this: Onkyo Collaboration
Kawai’s collaboration with hi-fi audio company Onkyo gives the NV10 the sound projection and clarity it deserves. The DIDRC filter technology removes the unnecessary high frequencies and static noise that digital instruments produce at loud volumes, resulting in a more natural sound. This feature maintains the classic tone assigned to Kawai pianos, whilst eliminating any undesirable background noise. The NV10’s speakers are specifically positioned to project groups of frequencies. The lower facing speakers produce warm, thick bass tones, whilst the top speakers project clear highs. The result is a rounded overall sound with authentic projection for both the audience and the performer. Onkyo have also designed the headphone speaker experience, so your rehearsals and private use remains immersive.


Perhaps it is an Onkyo problem and Kawai is in the middle somehow. Kawai' QC has come under fire for models like the MP7se and I myself have seen a problem riddled MP11. Kawai James has been conspicuously silent. He is a very good guy caught between a rock and a hard place perhaps.


MP11 is nice and better than VPC1 but I already have a slider/knob controllers, 2 seaboards and 1 cheap midi controller (for sequence only) so VPC1 is good enough for me.

True that Onkyo has their reputation. But for such small speakers and imperfect sound produced, this is not acceptable no matter what. There are a lot of people here in pianoworld who are from Europe too. Maybe in German, they have good Kawai service there or people have solved their problems in some ways? I believe this issue has became more serious because more and more reports of the same problems come from all around different regions and that make each individual more urgent and demand a final solution. If I am the only one then I am just pure unlucky. On the other way, I have the problem and see more and more people having the same things then I would be much more furious; not to mention Kawai's vague attitude. This is simple psychological.


I think the best approach for us who own faulty unit is to wait for the new update. No one want to return and later know that the new firmware fix all the problems (very unlikely I think)


Kawai Novus NV10
www.youtube.com/vangakuz
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: IosPlayer] #2779054
11/07/18 04:59 PM
11/07/18 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer
... Perhaps it is an Onkyo problem and Kawai is in the middle somehow. Kawai' QC has come under fire for models like the MP7se and I myself have seen a problem riddled MP11. Kawai James has been conspicuously silent. He is a very good guy caught between a rock and a hard place perhaps.


What do you mean by “an Onkyo problem”? The Novus is a Kawai product, who is fully responsible for its design, engineering and manufacturing. If Kawai decided to partner up with Onkyo or any another company to design or outsource components or to outsource the assembly process that was a Kawai’s decision. Kawai is the only party responsible for the overall product. So, please do not try to dilute the situation that Kawai alone has created. And why should KJ voice his personal opinion about this? He happens to be just a very nice forum member. The only party that cannot be silent is the one responsible for putting a 9000 EUR digital piano on the market that seems to lack quality control during design and/or production. Worse, the Novus (and even the CA/CS models) are niche products. So, it is simply inexcusable that the relatively small number of customers who decided to trust Kawai and invest on a high-end digital instrument are being ignored. Repairing the damage to the Kawai brand will be much more difficult than repairing these technical issues.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779058
11/07/18 05:09 PM
11/07/18 05:09 PM
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Wow, logging on to pianoworld for the first time in years, and discovering that Kawai has this issue wirh quality control on the top model... not good!

I tried the Novus for the first time today at a shop, btw. It's obviously good, but I'm honestly not sure if I perceived it as significantly better than my good old CS10. I didn't play it for long, but I compared it side b side to the CS11 which was also fhere (which is very close to fhe CS10). I actually think there was something about the CS11 that felt slightly more natural to me. Not sure what it was - perhaps I perceived some of the issues mentioned in this thread wirhout noticing it consciously.

Also, I struggle a bit to see why people would buy the Novus over an acousfic K500 with silent function? Choosing between the two, I would choose the K500 with silent/midi functionality in a heartbeat.


Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779072
11/07/18 06:10 PM
11/07/18 06:10 PM
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Arc7urus, I did not mean to imply Kawai is not responsible, just that there Is another party involved. A similar case is the pedal unit made by Fatar for the old MP11. There were quality issues there and now Kawai has replaced it with an optical unit they manufacture themselves.
A mark against them is that you cannot retrofit the new pedal system to previous models. I was just pointing out that they might be dealing with
Onkyo on this issue. I thought it a pertinent part of the story. Sorry if I upset you,


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779076
11/07/18 06:22 PM
11/07/18 06:22 PM
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I don't think Kawai realize how serious the problem has become. Beside the dissatisfaction, faulty unit owners divide into 2 group: one is overly positive and one is realistic. The optimistic group tends to favor Kawai and create a lot of excuses in Kawai's behalf despite all the fact showing that Kawai is neglected. To be honest, they are just a bunch of hypocrites. I really admire how postie they are and live happily with a faulty product unless they found those buzzing sound amusing and part of their soul in music performance. On the other hand, the realistic group, me included, try every way to push for Kawai and demand a good final solution that satisfy every single one of owner. This create the fight between 2 groups despite that we own the same piano.

Side note, I have no idea why many people mention Kawai James. As he states, he is just an employee and has no jurisdiction or speak on behalf of Kawai. Even let suppose that he did mention this thread to Kawai then there will 2 hypothesis: One is Kawai doesn't give a crap about what James say. This prove how rotten Kawai is. Second, Kawai force him to keep silent just like they are now. Either way, I believe he should change name to Kawaii James which mean "Cute James".


Kawai Novus NV10
www.youtube.com/vangakuz
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: vancedo] #2779151
11/07/18 11:59 PM
11/07/18 11:59 PM
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Return it. You live where I do. Same kawai service. Different dealer. But I bought other Kawai DP from them. You have full warranty. Only way to get satisfaction is to demand refund or replace. Kawai will pay attention to this. I am not a hypocrite. My Novis is perfect. Not a real grand. But as a substitution. Perfect.


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779192
11/08/18 05:16 AM
11/08/18 05:16 AM
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Yes, but you own a Novis not a Novus (huge difference).

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: vancedo] #2779223
11/08/18 08:36 AM
11/08/18 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by vancedo
There are a lot of people here in pianoworld who are from Europe too. Maybe in German, they have good Kawai service there or people have solved their problems in some ways? I believe this issue has became more serious because more and more reports of the same problems come from all around different regions and that make each individual more urgent and demand a final solution.


Not at all - it is the same problem here, too. For all practical purposes the service is non-existent / in denial.

Originally Posted by vancedo
If I am the only one then I am just pure unlucky. On the other way, I have the problem and see more and more people having the same things then I would be much more furious; not to mention Kawai's vague attitude. This is simple psychological.


You are not the only one, and by a good margin. As you've seen on this forum, quite a few other people have the same issue! Whether that makes it better or worse is a different story, of course.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2779225
11/08/18 08:45 AM
11/08/18 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Return it. You live where I do. Same kawai service. Different dealer. But I bought other Kawai DP from them. You have full warranty. Only way to get satisfaction is to demand refund or replace. Kawai will pay attention to this. I am not a hypocrite. My Novis is perfect. Not a real grand. But as a substitution. Perfect.


I think I (and others) understand that you have a great Novus, TomLC, and I am happy about that for you. I would also say that likely many of those affected by this issue still believe in the potential and have hope to end up with a functioning Novus at some point. But please also understand that return and replace does not seem like a viable option at this point: As we have heard from dealers through the grapevine (and as has been reported also on this forum), some parts of Kawai seem to be aware of a problem with a whole production line, so that (as I and others were explicitly told) there is not point in an exchange - the new model would likely have the same issue. (If this sounds implausible to you, then maybe take note that it happened to Gérard.)

So this leaves people with the option of returning the piano altogether. It's a thought I have had, but given the lack of comparable options and the good experience you have, I find it natural that people would extend a little extra good faith to Kawai, hoping that their patience and generosity will be rewarded. What seems disappointing (at best) is that this good will seems to be met with denial/communication embargo on the part of Kawai.

In any case, maybe it's more productive to turn the discussion back towards the actual, factual issues and complaints, rather than to go against each other on the forum here...

Last edited by cliowa; 11/08/18 08:47 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: oivavoi] #2779228
11/08/18 08:53 AM
11/08/18 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by oivavoi
I tried the Novus for the first time today at a shop, btw. It's obviously good, but I'm honestly not sure if I perceived it as significantly better than my good old CS10. I didn't play it for long, but I compared it side b side to the CS11 which was also fhere (which is very close to fhe CS10). I actually think there was something about the CS11 that felt slightly more natural to me. Not sure what it was - perhaps I perceived some of the issues mentioned in this thread wirhout noticing it consciously.

I think it's possible that the CS11 felt more "natural" simply because you are used to it (from your CS10). It certainly took me a day or two after switching from the CA97 (same GFII action as the CS10/CS11) to the NV10 until the slight feeling of "strangeness" had subsided. But then very soon, I came to love the Millennium III action in the NV10. smile


Originally Posted by oivavoi
Also, I struggle a bit to see why people would buy the Novus over an acousfic K500 with silent function? Choosing between the two, I would choose the K500 with silent/midi functionality in a heartbeat.

I can answer that for myself, but don't expect a revelation. It's the usual bullet points you always hear when the merits of acoustic vs. digital are discussed:
  • I don't want the hassle of an acoustic instrument (mainly the regular tuning and the instrument being slightly out of tune in between).
  • I really like to have a grand action, not an upright action.
  • I much prefer the sound of the Novus over the sound of any acoustic upright (that I would be willing to pay for - maybe up there in concert upright land, at and beyond 20-30,000€, I would think different, but I never tried such an elite instrument and wouldn't want to afford one either).
  • To my knowledge, there still is no upright action that isn't compromised by the silent function. Because of the stopper rail, the action has to be regulated with an earlier let off point, making it (arguably) worse than the same action could be without the silent function, even when playing in acoustic mode.

An anecdote illustrating the last two points:

A couple of months ago I played a new Yamaha B3 with SC2 silent system at friends who had just bought it for their son. I sat down at the piano with, I must admit, a bit of dread, fearing that playing this acoustic instrument, with all of its so often vaunted "realness" and "aliveness" and "lively resonances" would maybe spoil me for the NV10 I had at home. And I was indeed slightly shocked when I played the Yamaha. But in exactly the reverse direction.

I was mildly shocked how slightly boring and generic the acoustic sound was. (I write "slightly" because it was of course still a nice and solid instrument, just not with any kind of "Wow!"). I was mildly shocked how uninspiring the touch of the action was, which was difficult to control and where the dynamic range seemingly only allowed mp and upwards (could that be the impact of the silent system on the action?). I was mildly shocked (well, not really, as I kind of expected this) how much less I liked the digital part of the SC2 silent system (granted, with the cheap headphones that came with the piano, not a proper set). And I was - not at all lightly, but very much so - happy to have my NV10 at home, and not this B3.
And a few weeks later, other (common) friends approached me (without me initiating the topic or even bringing it up in any way) about how much more they liked the sound of my NV10 over the sound of that B3, which they didn't like at all. Not being into piano themselves, they didn't discern that the NV10 sound came from speakers and the B3 sound from strings and sound board. That distinction didn't matter for them. They simply expressed (quite strongly, to my surprise) how little they liked the B3 and how much they preferred the NV10's sound - go figure! laugh
(Yes I know, this is just an anecdote, and YMMV, and the B3 is not really in the same league as a K500 - the B3 with SC2 is at ~7000€, the K500 at ~8500€ with ATX2 or ~10,500€ with ATX3 - but it certainly was something that gave me a good feeling about my NV10 - or rather, it cemented my satisfaction with it).

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Pete14] #2779230
11/08/18 09:05 AM
11/08/18 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Yes, but you own a Novis not a Novus (huge difference).


ha It was past my bedtime and a couple of S on the rocks. sleep


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779234
11/08/18 09:26 AM
11/08/18 09:26 AM
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I am sorry if my post came across as confrontational. That was not my intention. As so many of you are saying, Kawai isn’t paying attention to these issues with the sound or speakers. IMHO (and take it with a grain of salt if you disagree) the only way to get their attention is by a large number of owners calling on the Warrenty and demanding a fix or a full refund.


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779268
11/08/18 12:21 PM
11/08/18 12:21 PM
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I am really worried about my NV10. Some days the sound is totally unbearable, and sometimes, the distotorsion is discreet enough to play normally ... In addition a new problem appears: the sound of some notes is much louder than the average (D5 and G5) and the VT does not change anything or much too fiew.
I plan to use pianoteq with a HIFI channel and a dedicated PC, but it's really expensive to pay only have a keyboard!

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779324
11/08/18 03:34 PM
11/08/18 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by oivavoi
I tried the Novus for the first time today at a shop, btw. It's obviously good, but I'm honestly not sure if I perceived it as significantly better than my good old CS10. I didn't play it for long, but I compared it side b side to the CS11 which was also fhere (which is very close to fhe CS10). I actually think there was something about the CS11 that felt slightly more natural to me. Not sure what it was - perhaps I perceived some of the issues mentioned in this thread wirhout noticing it consciously.


I think it's possible that the CS11 felt more "natural" simply because you are used to it (from your CS10). It certainly took me a day or two after switching from the CA97 (same GFII action as the CS10/CS11) to the NV10 until the slight feeling of "strangeness" had subsided. But then very soon, I came to love the Millennium III action in the NV10. smile



Yes, that's certainly possible! I'm just as biased as any other person, and I guess it would be tempting for me to think that my own digital is as good as it gets… smile I will just add though that my primary reference for a natural playing feeling isn't my own CS10 - which doesn't feel completely natural to me - but real uprights and grands. I have played on quite a lot of very good uprights and grands in my life. And on this occasion, I tried out the Novus and the CS11 after having spent an hour playing on various high-end uprights and grands in the same shop (including the K500). So even though my experience on this occasion certainly isn't the last word on the Novus for me, I don't think I'm overly biased towards the feeling of playing my own CS10.

Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by oivavoi
Also, I struggle a bit to see why people would buy the Novus over an acousfic K500 with silent function? Choosing between the two, I would choose the K500 with silent/midi functionality in a heartbeat.

I can answer that for myself, but don't expect a revelation. It's the usual bullet points you always hear when the merits of acoustic vs. digital are discussed:
  • I don't want the hassle of an acoustic instrument (mainly the regular tuning and the instrument being slightly out of tune in between).
  • I really like to have a grand action, not an upright action.
  • I much prefer the sound of the Novus over the sound of any acoustic upright (that I would be willing to pay for - maybe up there in concert upright land, at and beyond 20-30,000€, I would think different, but I never tried such an elite instrument and wouldn't want to afford one either).
  • To my knowledge, there still is no upright action that isn't compromised by the silent function. Because of the stopper rail, the action has to be regulated with an earlier let off point, making it (arguably) worse than the same action could be without the silent function, even when playing in acoustic mode.

An anecdote illustrating the last two points:

A couple of months ago I played a new Yamaha B3 ...


Good points, and a nice anecdote! With pianos and DPs, there are some things which are matters of taste, and other things which are more objective. And we have different needs and wants, of course. For some, a very expensive DP will be the right choice. I have defended the virtues of DP's against purist acoustic pianist friends many times, and have been more than happy with my CS10 for the last years. I have made the exact point that an instrument like the CS10 - or the CS11, the Novus, or the avantgrands - is way superior to many budget uprights.

But the thing with the Novus and the Avantgrands is that they have become so expensive that for the same price one can either get a very good upright with silent option, or a very good upright and a good DP on the side, if one has the space for going double (a VPC1 + pianoteq + excellent headphones would be my personal choice in that case).

And I do think that many pianists who have gotten used to mainly playing DP's lose out on the the even richer musical experiences that can be had when playing a good acoustic… if I'm allowed to say so! smile

A large grand can't be beaten, of course. That goes without saying. With uprights and baby grands, it's more tricky. Sonically, baby grands are usually inferior to large uprights, but they have better action. Uprights need to be large to really cut it. 121 cm height, like the Yamaha B3, is not enough. 120 cm is the absolute minimum that makes for a decent upright, but it isn't quite there yet, IMHO. 125 cm is better. But once you hit 130 cm - dang, you're home. This impacts everything - how it feels to play it, the texture of the tones, the dynamics, the warmth. The cheapest good 130 cm upright I've tried is the K500, which I think is excellent value for money. I'm sure there are some good Chinese large uprights as well that I've yet to try. And even when the size is there, uprights need to get the action right - they do start with a handicap compared with a baby grand in that regard. It's only a minority of uprights I've really enjoyed playing, but when I do like them, it can be sublime.

What is this sublimity about? To put it in subjective terms: It's about connection with the instrument. Good acoustic instruments "respond" in a different way. Today, I visited an acquaintance who has a vintage upright from 1904. In many ways it's horribly aged. Still, it had something which allowed an immediate emotional connection when I started playing. It's just there, this connection between the player and the instrument - and it's not there to the same degree with the CS10, not with the avantgrands, and I think not with the Novus. Not for me, at least!

But sorry for derailing the thread.

Btw, the point about the impact of the silent system on the action is valid. I find pianos with silent systems from Yamaha and Kawai quiet playable, and I prefer them to acoustically to DP's. I still prefer playing on an acoustic without silent system. The ideal solution is to have a separate acoustic piano and a separate DP.

Last edited by oivavoi; 11/08/18 03:36 PM.

Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779451
11/09/18 03:45 AM
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Obviously, an acoustic piano sounds better even than an excellent hybrid. The upright piano is a solution, but the touch of a grand piano is irreplaceable for me.
But when we do not have room, and we have neighbors the hybrid is a good compromise ... When it works!

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779471
11/09/18 05:23 AM
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It depends on the quality of the accoustic. Not every accoustic sounds good, will say: It's not automatically better because it's an accoustic piano/grand.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: jgbs] #2779479
11/09/18 05:54 AM
11/09/18 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyr
It depends on the quality of the accoustic. Not every accoustic sounds good, will say: It's not automatically better because it's an accoustic piano/grand.

Exactly! That’s what I wanted to illustrate with my anecdote. It’s a matter of personal taste, of course, but such a blanket assertion like
Originally Posted by jgbs
Obviously, an acoustic piano sounds better even than an excellent hybrid.

simply isn’t true (not for everyone, at least - certainly not for me).

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779497
11/09/18 08:40 AM
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Of course, there are acoustic pianos that are poor enough for electronic pianos to be better.
I was talking about piano that can be found hardly more expensive than a NV 10.
For example if I had the place I had found a 1985 Hoffmann of 2 meters for 10 000 euros, or a 1978 feurig of 1.76 m for 7 500 euros.
And before moving I had a grotrian steinweg (sigh).
I did not talk of all these pianos called "piano d'étude" in France and can cost up to 5000 or 6000 euros. In this case obviously it is much better to invest in a good hybrid.
Because even if there are problems of sound with my NV10, it remains that I have under the fingers an excellent action, and I guess that Kawai will eventually find a solution.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: jgbs] #2779816
11/10/18 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jgbs
... In addition a new problem appears: the sound of some notes is much louder than the average (D5 and G5) ...


That is exactly what i was pointing out too. My G4 and G5 are WAY lounder than every other note. I basicly hurts my ears on ff like some strong resonance. How far away from a wall is you novus placed? In what angle? Regards.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2779962
11/11/18 12:46 AM
11/11/18 12:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,316
Happy November 10th everyone, which I think ought to be the official NV-10 Day smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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