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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698729
12/21/17 09:47 AM
12/21/17 09:47 AM
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Maartin Offline
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MikeRoePhonics,

Any keyboard should be able to handle 16ths at 90bpm - it's hardly fast?

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698751
12/21/17 11:27 AM
12/21/17 11:27 AM
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There is a clear interaction between playing technique and instrument that comes into play here, and I think fundamentally it's impossible to separate the two sufficiently to conclusively answer the question without using a machine for testing. Martha Argerich has one of if not the finest piano techniques in the world, and I'm confident that she would be able to play that Scarlatti on all high-end DPs at that tempo. BUT...I also think she would find it more difficult. An instrument action is not just a single hard limit but a graduated response. You may get a repetition every X ms, but if you human noise (i.e. imperfect technique) to the time difference, then the closer you to the hard limit, the more often you will not coincide with optimal key return timing (i.e. you won't precisely X ms gaps always, sometimes you'll try to play early before the key has sufficiently returned) and the more often you will play a note without it sounding, which in itself will further disrupt your timing.

So there is a hard limit, but there is in practice a graduated response as you approach that limit. I think DPs are capable of fast repetitions, but I also think that fast repetitions are more difficult to successfully carry out on DPs. At least, that's been my experience.

It's also worth being in mind that not all expensive acoustic grand pianos are equal in this regard either. For example, that Glenn Gould - another master of fast repetitions - actually had his pianos specially prepared to allow fast repetitions.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Bl├╝thner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698863
12/21/17 08:23 PM
12/21/17 08:23 PM
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Thanks for the replies. I posted here last year asking about fast repetitions and basically narrowed it down to the Studiologic SL88 Grand, Kawai MP7 and Kawai VPC1. I've looked at all the other commonly discussed 88 key hammer action models on the market.

Overall, the MP7 seems like the best fit, but I haven't played any of the above three boards, only recommendations from various forums, including this one.

The 88-key hammer action boards I've owned include:
- M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 (from 2005)
- Roland Juno DS88
- Studiologic SL-990 XP

The 88-key hammer action boards I've played include:
- Casio Privia (forgot the name, but all Privia's have the same action, I believe)
- Yamaha MOX8
- Yamaha KX8

Of the above 6 boards, I liked the SL-990 XP the most, with the Keystation Pro 88 second, despite its general dislike among players. Both boards had component failures so they're no longer options. I play sampled pianos as well as synths and drums so a general-use action is desired.

Thanks for the help!



Last edited by MikeRoePhonics; 12/21/17 08:24 PM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698871
12/21/17 09:29 PM
12/21/17 09:29 PM
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To see quick repetitions on some other models, check this video at 18:05



and this one at 2:23



He gets good repetition out of the Roland Ivory Feel G despite a subjectively sluggish feel, and also out of the ES110, but struggles more with the Casio (showing again that triple sensor is not directly tied to how fast you can repeat a hit... it's actually more about how quietly you can repeat a hit).

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Maartin] #2699127
12/23/17 11:19 AM
12/23/17 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Maartin
MikeRoePhonics,

Any keyboard should be able to handle 16ths at 90bpm - it's hardly fast?

+1

Any half-decent DP should be able to handle this.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2699142
12/23/17 02:05 PM
12/23/17 02:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
Yes, the Yamaha P155


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778624
11/06/18 03:09 AM
11/06/18 03:09 AM
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Bangkok, Thailand
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Nifrigel Offline
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Sorry for reviving an old thread, it just happened to be on exact same issue I want to clarify. Today I went to buy the Roland FP-90. Since today I had the money on me, I tested it much more thoroughly than the previous time. I found no problem with the DP except for the fact that I wasn't able to play a fast repetition on any key. Most of the notes was "chewed" by the DP. Now one thing I must tell in advance, I haven't played any piano for ages, so my skill right now is close to non-existent. Still, I played a lot of fast repetition on the acoustic pianos in my life and never had any problems with them. Even without practice I would not expect myself to fail so miserably. So at first I thought that probably the DP in the showroom was faulty. But then I tried Roland's HP pianos with the same PHA50 action and the problem persisted. Then I tried pianos with different actions like FP-30 and FP-80 and still wasn't able to reproduce a single half-decent fast repetition. At this point I felt a bit of relief since it became obvious that it's not only the piano I was going to buy that is faulty. My lack of ability must play a huge role in my failure. After that I went to another shop and tried Kawai ES8 and Casio PX-160. The actions felt completely different from the Roland (I prefer PHA50 more) but I still wasn't able to play a repetition. So yeah, I must be either my lack of skill or it's really a shortcoming of nearly all of the DP. I really hope it's not the latter. To me it seemed that the rebound of the key is just not fast enough and I had the same feeling on any piano I played today.

Last edited by Nifrigel; 11/06/18 03:10 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Nifrigel] #2778626
11/06/18 03:35 AM
11/06/18 03:35 AM
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South Wales
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Colin Miles Offline
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Originally Posted by Nifrigel
Now one thing I must tell in advance, I haven't played any piano for ages, so my skill right now is close to non-existent. Still, I played a lot of fast repetition on the acoustic pianos in my life and never had any problems with them. Even without practice I would not expect myself to fail so miserably.


Speaking as someone who also came back from not playing, I think you are expecting too much. There should be no problem with any of the pianos you mentioned.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778631
11/06/18 03:53 AM
11/06/18 03:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 468
Dublin
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I have an FP-90 and have no problem with repeated notes. I use the same technique as on a grand. The FP-90 is certainly up to the challenge of pieces like Scarlatti's d minor sonata or Ravel's Alborado Del Gracioso or Scarbo.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Nifrigel] #2778647
11/06/18 06:08 AM
11/06/18 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Nifrigel
...So yeah, I must be either my lack of skill or it's really a shortcoming of nearly all of the DP. I really hope it's not the latter. To me it seemed that the rebound of the key is just not fast enough and I had the same feeling on any piano I played today.


Nothing wrong with high end DP actions - this guy seems to do fairly okay with the previous gen Roland action on a JunoDS...

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778667
11/06/18 08:17 AM
11/06/18 08:17 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
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Bangkok, Thailand
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Nifrigel Offline
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Thanks for your replies, that's motivating!

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Lam] #2778734
11/06/18 12:34 PM
11/06/18 12:34 PM
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Tacoma, WA
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agent8698 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lam
Where is that video of the robot rolling on the gp500? The robot was doing repetitions faster than humanely possible on some chopsticks piece. I think it was compared with an acoustic as well. I do remember seeing it one time but it just seemed to disappear or was I dreaming?

Here it is:

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778744
11/06/18 12:59 PM
11/06/18 12:59 PM
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Tacoma, WA
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agent8698 Offline OP
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I just re-read this thread with interest. I noticed that several posts included videos of Billy Joel's song "Angry Young Man", which demonstrates a two-handed rapid note repetition. This two-handed technique is not what I had in mind when I started the thread. When I said "fast, repeated notes", that was short for "fast, repeated notes played by one hand". The distinction is important, because using two hands, as in "Angry Young Man", brings in additional pianistic resources, which are able to overcome the resistance of a less-responsive action. The single hand does not have that luxury (and by far most musical examples of rapid same-note repetition require a single hand to play it). Therefore, I feel that the single hand is the benchmark (or should be) for any tests or verdicts regarding rapid same-note repetition.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778753
11/06/18 01:30 PM
11/06/18 01:30 PM
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by agent8698
I just re-read this thread with interest. I noticed that several posts included videos of Billy Joel's song "Angry Young Man", which demonstrates a two-handed rapid note repetition. This two-handed technique is not what I had in mind when I started the thread. When I said "fast, repeated notes", that was short for "fast, repeated notes played by one hand". The distinction is important, because using two hands, as in "Angry Young Man", brings in additional pianistic resources, which are able to overcome the resistance of a less-responsive action. The single hand does not have that luxury (and by far most musical examples of rapid same-note repetition require a single hand to play it). Therefore, I feel that the single hand is the benchmark (or should be) for any tests or verdicts regarding rapid same-note repetition.

I agree. Angry Young Man is a poor choice to measure repetition. I've been able to play that on all but the most terrible actions - both acoustic and digital. Playing rapid repeats with a single hand requires a lot more from the action. It should be the standard by which repetition is measured.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778768
11/06/18 02:13 PM
11/06/18 02:13 PM
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If the question is, does the action return fast enough to re-strike it at a certain rate, then whether it takes one or two hands to do it shouldn't matter, as the key comes back at the same rate regardless, it doesn't know whether it's being struck with two hands or one. The percentage of that two-handed rate you can achieve with just one hand is probably more a factor of the individual player's ability/technique than the return rate of the action.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778772
11/06/18 02:23 PM
11/06/18 02:23 PM
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both the mp11 and es8 mp7se allow the fast notes repetitions as per Scarlatti's sonata.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: ando] #2778778
11/06/18 02:38 PM
11/06/18 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by agent8698
I just re-read this thread with interest. I noticed that several posts included videos of Billy Joel's song "Angry Young Man", which demonstrates a two-handed rapid note repetition. This two-handed technique is not what I had in mind when I started the thread. When I said "fast, repeated notes", that was short for "fast, repeated notes played by one hand". The distinction is important, because using two hands, as in "Angry Young Man", brings in additional pianistic resources, which are able to overcome the resistance of a less-responsive action. The single hand does not have that luxury (and by far most musical examples of rapid same-note repetition require a single hand to play it). Therefore, I feel that the single hand is the benchmark (or should be) for any tests or verdicts regarding rapid same-note repetition.

I agree. Angry Young Man is a poor choice to measure repetition. I've been able to play that on all but the most terrible actions - both acoustic and digital. Playing rapid repeats with a single hand requires a lot more from the action. It should be the standard by which repetition is measured.

Alright - does Campanella count on an LX-17 PHA50 action (same as the FP-90)?


Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: jamiecw] #2778783
11/06/18 03:04 PM
11/06/18 03:04 PM
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Tacoma, WA
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agent8698 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jamiecw

Alright - does Campanella count on an LX-17 PHA50 action (same as the FP-90)?


Yes, it does! That is one of only a handful of rare and exceptional videos on the Internet, showing fast repeated notes (one-handed) on a digital piano (in my first post of this thread, I posted another example of that, with that same Japanese pianist, this time playing Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 on the Roland V-Piano Grand).



Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: anotherscott] #2778784
11/06/18 03:05 PM
11/06/18 03:05 PM
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Exactly. If we're rating or evaluating a piano we ought not be rating the pianist.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
If the question is, does the action return fast enough to re-strike it at a certain rate, then whether it takes one or two hands to do it shouldn't matter, as the key comes back at the same rate regardless, it doesn't know whether it's being struck with two hands or one. The percentage of that two-handed rate you can achieve with just one hand is probably more a factor of the individual player's ability/technique than the return rate of the action.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2779275
11/08/18 12:37 PM
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I checked this specifically for Kawai MP7 as the controller with Ravenscroft 275 as the plugin. It is possible to achieve a very similar repetition.

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