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Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778329
11/05/18 07:55 AM
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Not who I thought, Nahum. With respect and Grammys aside, not my cup of tea. Exactly what I am talking about. Just my opinion, of course.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
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Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778342
11/05/18 08:46 AM
11/05/18 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdfw
What are some advises I can get from this community to get started to seriously study jazz piano, mostly the performance part.


I would also take a look at ….

Bill Rinehart at ….

http://jazzpianoonline.com/

He studied at Berkeley and his site is very thoroughly detailed oriented with some free stuff to help you decide if it might be a fit for you.

He also offers lessons live via Skype or at his studio.

I would give it a look.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD 555 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: IosPlayer] #2778371
11/05/18 10:55 AM
11/05/18 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer
I recently PMd an essay I wrote (actually three) to a forum member on the most important things my late, great teacher, Connie Crothers, taught me. If you are interested just PM me and I will share them with you.

If you don't mind, I would love to read it, too.

Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778414
11/05/18 01:16 PM
11/05/18 01:16 PM
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raleigh, nc
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My site may help you. I've got lots of FREE content here:

Five Essential Seventh Chords
https://bit.ly/2OnP68H

Five Essential Seventh Chords - Tunes (A new FREE series showing you how to play seventh chords over standard tunes- new lessons added regularly)
https://bit.ly/2Nj9W4m

Improv- The Concept
https://bit.ly/2IymeFh

Major ii-V-I Progression
https://bit.ly/2NjPqRj

Lydian Ending
https://bit.ly/2NdXumh


And more FREE content:

Mini Jazz Lessons - Mini Lessons are concise tutorials on a narrow topic related to various lessons on the site.
https://bit.ly/2xVUcPM

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https://bit.ly/2Nisj9q


If you like the free content there is a massive amount of material available with your paid subscription.

Just some of the things you can learn:

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Comping: http://bit.ly/2DVUzzq

How to Improvise: http://bit.ly/2O4VYbo

And that's just the tip of the iceberg! Please contact me if there is a topic that you are interested in pursuing and you don’t see it on the site.


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Read the latest newsletter for more: http://bit.ly/jpowhatsnew


I've been helping students learn online since 2007!


Bill
bill@jazzpianoonline.com
www.JazzPianoOnline.com
Online Jazz Piano Lessons
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Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778425
11/05/18 02:09 PM
11/05/18 02:09 PM
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JazzPianoOnline. I still would like to hear you play. Where might I find that? Thanks.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: IosPlayer] #2778469
11/05/18 04:10 PM
11/05/18 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer
Not who I thought, Nahum. With respect and Grammys aside, not my cup of tea..
Agree; it's such a small thing, meaningless. In general, there are people who are not versed in jazz ...

Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778509
11/05/18 05:41 PM
11/05/18 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdfw
probably need to work on jazz scales and finger dexterity a bit more.

Not in first place.
Just sit on the piano and only play what you hear in your head. At the beginning this could be very little, but be honest and start with a view notes.
The point is to always be aware what you are doing (and not just playing scales up and down without any musical content).

Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778515
11/05/18 05:55 PM
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Sorry to upset your apple cart, Nahum. Even the lowly are entitled to their opinion. Mark Eliyahu, your countryman, plays from his heart and soul. Not jazz, but not lifeless either. No Grammys though. Mmmm. Bad sign.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: Nahum] #2778566
11/05/18 08:13 PM
11/05/18 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
mrdfw , I repeat : the transition from classic to jazz thinking occurs only through rhythm, swing and articulation. Any note of jazz tunes and any jazz harmonies can be played by any classically trained pianist; but it won't SOUND like jazz.
It all starts with prosody of rhythm and swing; melodica is the best tool for this.

https://yadi.sk/d/7o0VF6fwXfjUGA


Hi Nahum, I totally hear what you are saying and it's definitely a big part of the transition.

Melodica is an interesting example. Do you have any other practical suggestions on the piano itself to practice/learn rhythm?

Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: indigo_dave] #2778617
11/06/18 02:17 AM
11/06/18 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by indigo_dave
I recently subscribed to Peter Martin's Open Studio. I think it may be a good option for you. You can check out some of their sample lessons on their site.

https://www.openstudionetwork.com/


I recently subscribed to Open Studio. The beginner jazz seems to be good starting point. It took me a couple of hours to reach to Lesson 4, but it's going to get harder I believe.

Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778619
11/06/18 02:30 AM
11/06/18 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdfw


Melodica is an interesting example. Do you have any other practical suggestions on the piano itself to practice/learn rhythm?

Here is precisely the point that melodica from my point of view isn't target , but an educational instrument - on the way to ... It can be a preparatory stage for three groups of instruments in future : keyboards, horns and percussion. In this case, I introduced a combination of keyboard and percussion - exactly what is required to solve the problem of OP. In this area I am entirely expert: I have a classical music experience of 30 years, I play jazz professionally for 50 years and have teaching experience of 47 years, 8 of them with the use of melodica as an auxiliary tool. In my work with the pianist on rhythm feel and swing articulation, I tie together the technique of playing the piano, saxophone and melodica; which leads to new pianistic technique, which is unknown to the classically trained pianist.
Preliminary use of melodica is based on the thesis that any rhythmic performance has a preliminary stage of mental prosody of rhythm; and errors in rhythm and articulation begin exactly there, and not on the instrument. Melodica only voices this mental prosodia, and allows corrections before the playing is transferred to the piano.

Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778627
11/06/18 03:39 AM
11/06/18 03:39 AM
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Last edited by Nahum; 11/06/18 03:42 AM.
Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778682
11/06/18 08:53 AM
11/06/18 08:53 AM
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With great respect for Mr. Nahum and his detailed teaching technique using a Melodica, I would like to present some ideas and concepts about improvising that come from a diametrically different place. For many I am sure Mr. Nahum' approach will serve many logical and organized minds. Frankly, if I had been exposed to these techniques ( though many of the concepts are great, like his investigation of breathing) I would have given up playing within a short time. This approach just does not work for me personally, as I am drawn to more organic, intuitive instruction based on a zenlsh, nonthinking supra-logical approach.

There are also elements in this technique that would have led me down the wrong path, personally, as far as my body is concerned. For example Mr. Nahum says that every jazz pianist knows that swing begins with the shoulder blade. Really?? Perhaps if you are swinging a baseball bat. Maybe he is using swing in a different way than the standard understanding. My teacher, Connie Crothers, taught me that a swing feeling is not a body movement, nor need it be addressed directly with excercises in syncopation, but comes organically from a deep feeling of melody, a word Mr. Nahum assiduously avoids as a central part of note to note feeling ( also a concept I did not see addressed in his essays). This, in spite of Hohner's apt name for the instrument.

Again, Mr. Nahum' approach is very well thought out and produces Grammy Award winning results, at least with one student, as he proudly showed us. Perhaps it is the best approach for folks wishing to transit from the rigors and rigidity of classical pianism. But let us face the reality. Jazz has its roots in cotton fields, Indian tribal dancing, New Orleans Mardi Gras parades, drug and alcohol usage, and Juke joints. The very word jazz means to [censored]. It is about as earthy as it gets. Perhaps the Modern Jazz Quartet did us a disservice by dressing in tuxedos and performing at Carnegie Hall. The appropriation of jazz by intellectuals has, in many cases, reduced jazz to a cold, preconceived and formulaic artform. I certainly am not talking about pianists like Bill Evans or Lennie Tristano, or even Keith Jarrett, whose playing may sound cerebral but comes from a true feeling place and a deep note to note presence. It is those who adapt an original sound into a derivative jazz contraption rather than developing the originality that is, for me, the heart of jazz.

My teacher, Connie Crothers, encouraged all her students to search for the original jazz voice within themselves. She abhorred the idea that anyone she taught should play "like her" or like anyone who else for that matter. Ironically, she could not stress enough the importance of singing with the jazz greats on recordings. Learning the solos, singing along with giants like Lester Young, Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, -and especially Billie Holiday teaches you everything
you need about how to swing, phrase


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https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
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Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778691
11/06/18 09:17 AM
11/06/18 09:17 AM
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Sorry, edit timed me out. To continue... phrasing, dynamics, melody, breathing, interpretation, and plain old exuberance and fun. This method leads to an aha experience that does not lead to the production of little Birds and Prez's, but rather creates a sense in oneself so genuine that you begin to feel the true music making potential within yourself. Here is an example of what Connie's
( and by lineage, Lennie Tristano's) methods produced in me. If it speaks to you PM me and I will share more of Connie's teachings with you. Best, Mike

BILLY STRAYHORN'S MASTERPIECE, LUSH LIFE

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...1476463371209/1051.mp3/original/1051.mp3


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778755
11/06/18 01:36 PM
11/06/18 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer
For example Mr. Nahum says that every jazz pianist knows that swing begins with the shoulder blade.

This is what you understood, but not what I said. I say that the source MOVEMENTS and BREATHING HANDS is the scapula (along with the shoulder and armpit). Insofar as THE ARTICULATION IN GENERAL AND ARTICULATION OF SWING REQUIRES BREATHING, THAT SCAPULA AND SHOULDER PARTICIPATES IN IT. To assert that the source of swing is the shoulder is equivalent to the statement that the source of rhythm in singer is located in the throat.
As for the rest; I wish you success in the field of searching for jazz and swing feel; and also your own individual language. There is always hope ...

Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778780
11/06/18 02:47 PM
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No need to be snide, Nahum. My music speaks for itself. Let anyone listen. I gave you respect but you seem determined to be small minded about it. A mark of insecurity.


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https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: Nahum] #2778788
11/06/18 03:13 PM
11/06/18 03:13 PM
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Your own words, Nahum:
"Every jazz pianist knows that for creating swing effects a particular movement starting from the shoulders (or, more specific, from the shoulder blades) is needed. But even on the accordion, movements differ considerably form the ones on the piano: the lion’s share of swing effect depends on using the bellows, i.e. the left hand technique. This requires physical strength and a very good coordination of both hands’ movements."

Where is all this that I missed:
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by IosPlayer
For example Mr. Nahum says that every jazz pianist knows that swing begins with the shoulder blade.

This is what you understood, but not what I said. I say that the source MOVEMENTS and BREATHING HANDS is the scapula (along with the shoulder and armpit). Insofar as THE ARTICULATION IN GENERAL AND ARTICULATION OF SWING REQUIRES BREATHING, THAT SCAPULA AND SHOULDER PARTICIPATES IN IT. To assert that the source of swing is the shoulder is equivalent to the statement that the source of rhythm in singer is located in the throat.
As for the rest; I wish you success in the field of searching for jazz and swing feel; and also your own individual language. There is always hope ...


I think I understood quite well, at least from what you wrote. And when I breathe there isn't much movement of the scapular. Your lungs are probably way more developed then mine from all the Melodica playing. Conversation over.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: Nahum] #2778791
11/06/18 03:15 PM
11/06/18 03:15 PM
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Your own words, Nahum:
"Every jazz pianist knows that for creating swing effects a particular movement starting from the shoulders (or, more specific, from the shoulder blades) is needed. But even on the accordion, movements differ considerably form the ones on the piano: the lion’s share of swing effect depends on using the bellows, i.e. the left hand technique. This requires physical strength and a very good coordination of both hands’ movements."

Where is all this that I missed:
Originally Posted by Nahum
[quote=IosPlayer] For example Mr. Nahum says that every jazz pianist knows that swing begins with the shoulder blade.

This is what you understood, but not what I said. I say that the source MOVEMENTS and BREATHING HANDS is the scapula (along with the shoulder and armpit). Insofar as THE ARTICULATION IN GENERAL AND ARTICULATION OF SWING REQUIRES BREATHING, THAT SCAPULA AND SHOULDER PARTICIPATES IN IT. To assert that the source of swing is the shoulder is equivalent to the statement that the source of rhythm in singer is located in the throat.

I think I understood quite well, at least from what you wrote. And when I breathe there isn't much movement of the scapular. Your lungs must be way more developed then mine, probably from all the Melodica playing. Conversation over.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778813
11/06/18 05:17 PM
11/06/18 05:17 PM
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Honestly, as an amateur, I'm delighted with this more 'philosophical' discussion as well. I'm learning from both of you. But it also reminds me how little I know about the piano after 20 years of playing it smile

Last edited by mrdfw; 11/06/18 05:18 PM.
Re: Classically trained piano player looking for advice [Re: mrdfw] #2778843
11/06/18 07:20 PM
11/06/18 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdfw
Honestly, as an amateur, I'm delighted with this more 'philosophical' discussion as well. I'm learning from both of you. But it also reminds me how little I know about the piano after 20 years of playing it smile



Everyone has opinions. Some people think theirs is the only valid one. If everybody learned by exactly the same methods there'd be a lot of tiresome similarities.

I grew up listening to a variety of music thru my childhood - chirdren's 78 RPM records from maybe age 5 to 9. I discovered a few stacks of old 78's my dad had bought used in the late 1940's - including Pete Johnson/Albert Ammons and Louis Jordon and His Tympani 5. I was exposed to rhythmic music as a child. When I was maybe 13 I sometimes would look for AM radio stations in the late hours. I discovered WLAC from Nashvile (I was close to Orlando FL) - they played black R&B in the middle of the night. Years later I read that there were lots of white kids like me listening in bed in the middle of the night.

I discovered Dave Brubeck and Thelonious Monk around 17-18. Thank goD for used record stalls in the flea market.

In the culture I grew up in I bumped into rhythmic music. Maybe some other people grew up with different musical culture and played and listened to different rhythms. But I don't think I needed some special conditioning by some mystical specific listening exposures. I think there's plenty of rhythmic music to be exposed to in the course of growing up I one consumes a varied musical diet. I'm very happy I'm a musical omnivore. There are many different paths to get to Rome...well...to playing good jazz.

But when someone suggests there's one specific way to learn...my BS meter goes into red.

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