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Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: Retsacnal] #2748264
06/30/18 09:06 AM
06/30/18 09:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,984
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
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Seattle, WA USA
People try to write things into legal agreements all the time that aren't enforceable. Steinway is far from alone in trying this.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
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Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2748320
06/30/18 12:06 PM
06/30/18 12:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
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Retsacnal Offline

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Retsacnal  Offline

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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
People try to write things into legal agreements all the time that aren't enforceable. Steinway is far from alone in trying this.

Absolutely! I have no doubt that there will be attorneys eager to represent people on either side of this debate. But that gets to the essence of my overarching premise: that I would not want to be the one facing Steinway in a lawsuit of this nature. Win, lose or draw, it's going to be expensive. Those with the deepest pockets tend to prevail in fights of this nature.


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: Retsacnal] #2748323
06/30/18 12:57 PM
06/30/18 12:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
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DanS Offline
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
.. I would not want to be the one facing Steinway in a lawsuit of this nature. Win, lose or draw, it's going to be expensive. Those with the deepest pockets tend to prevail in fights of this nature.


Winning a lawsuit that angers a larger portion of the community that 1) services your instruments and 2) helps to guide purchasing decisions of your instruments would truly be a Pyrrhic victory.

This is all crazy speculation anyway at this point. It would be nice to have some sort of official word as to what's happening.

Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: DanS] #2748358
06/30/18 03:47 PM
06/30/18 03:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,957
Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
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Keith D Kerman Online content
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Originally Posted by DanS
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
.. I would not want to be the one facing Steinway in a lawsuit of this nature. Win, lose or draw, it's going to be expensive. Those with the deepest pockets tend to prevail in fights of this nature.


Winning a lawsuit that angers a larger portion of the community that 1) services your instruments and 2) helps to guide purchasing decisions of your instruments would truly be a Pyrrhic victory.

This is all crazy speculation anyway at this point. It would be nice to have some sort of official word as to what's happening.


This post wins for use of the word pyrrhic. However, because it was capitalized, 3 points are deducted.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
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Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: Keith D Kerman] #2748384
06/30/18 05:29 PM
06/30/18 05:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
🎹
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Offline

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Joined: Oct 2012
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🎹
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted by DanS
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
.. I would not want to be the one facing Steinway in a lawsuit of this nature. Win, lose or draw, it's going to be expensive. Those with the deepest pockets tend to prevail in fights of this nature.


Winning a lawsuit that angers a larger portion of the community that 1) services your instruments and 2) helps to guide purchasing decisions of your instruments would truly be a Pyrrhic victory.

This is all crazy speculation anyway at this point. It would be nice to have some sort of official word as to what's happening.


This post wins for use of the word pyrrhic. However, because it was capitalized, 3 points are deducted.


I cringe every time I see the expression "Pyrrhic victory." Sadly, my brother belongs to a creepy religious cult. A few years ago I discovered that his wife was proselytizing my then middle school aged daughters, and I put a stop to it. It ended up causing a big dust up on Facebook, and all her koolaide drinking friends chimed in. She was embarrassed.

My brother chided me afterwards--and frequently in the interim--that I'd only won a "Pyrrhic victory," costing me family relationships. Ironically, it hasn't seemed to cost me any. He keeps badgering me, and she keeps badgering my girls in weird efforts to prove that they aren't weird. Sometimes I want to say, "please, at least allow me the spoils of my Pyrrhic victory!" wink


[Linked Image]


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: DanS] #2748395
06/30/18 06:06 PM
06/30/18 06:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
🎹
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
🎹
Originally Posted by DanS
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
.. I would not want to be the one facing Steinway in a lawsuit of this nature. Win, lose or draw, it's going to be expensive. Those with the deepest pockets tend to prevail in fights of this nature.


Winning a lawsuit that angers a larger portion of the community that 1) services your instruments and 2) helps to guide purchasing decisions of your instruments would truly be a Pyrrhic victory.

I don't think it's any particular loss to Steinway when someone who'd like a Steinway but won't go through Steinway channels to acquire one is offended. What's that person's recourse: to still not buy from Steinway? And some "on the fence" folks will go ahead and buy a new Steinway as opposed to a non-Steinway rebuilt one, or have Steinway rebuild it when they otherwise might not have. Both are "wins" for Steinway.


Originally Posted by DanS
This is all crazy speculation anyway at this point. It would be nice to have some sort of official word as to what's happening.

Agreed!


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: pianoloverus] #2748762
07/02/18 10:58 AM
07/02/18 10:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,341
Seattle Area
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Markarian Offline
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And the thing is, if you looked at the number of Steinway pianos available for sale at any given moment and put it on a pie chart, I think you'd find the lion's share would be used Steinways that were NOT restored because they were not at that point. Steinways less than 50 years old, etc. It very well may be true S&S has their own name to fear above all else with competition, but it's hard for them to make a decent case to someone who buys a nice, well-maintained B from the 90s for say $49,000 that they should pony up another 60 grand (plus tax!) for one they got to select that was brand new. Granted, Steinway NY has made a lot of really nice manufacturing improvements over the last decade, but I digress.

I will admit I've never really looked into their own restoration instruments very much because, frankly, I appreciate the styling of Steinway's post-20s contemporary design and one of those gaudy, flowery Edwardian grands would look pretty out of place in my home, no matter how beautifully it sounded. With these older instruments getting rarer and rarer maybe Steinway is trying to shore up their older restoration grands?

I don't think there is any kind of Machiavellian intent here. I think it just comes down to the fact that, while Steinway may not have a specific business reason to discontinue licensing decals, they realized they really had no incentive to allow them either. What IP holder giveth, IP holder taketh away. Anyway, various SVG vector images of Steinway logos exist online and I'm sure someone in China or another foreign market with a cheap laser cutter will come to the rebuilders' rescue.


2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Nord Stage 3 Compact | Moog Sub 37 | Behringer DeepMind 12 | Sequential Circuits Prophet 6 | Korg Prologue
Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: pianoloverus] #2776454
10/29/18 12:25 PM
10/29/18 12:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1
New York State
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edthetuner Offline
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New York State
In my humble opinion, this is so short sighted on Steinway's part. Imagine the hundreds of vintage Ford automobile restoration garages being told by ford, "you cannot use the Ford logo on your car if you rebuild/repaint it. It's patently absurd. I've never seen a non Steinway piano, re-labelled as a Steinway product. The closest I came to that was a rebuilt Everett grand with proper decal and plate label, that the family who bought it was told it was a Steinway product so they bought it.
I have refinished several old Steinway's over the years and I always replaced the old decal with the historically accurate new decal. Now, I know some re-builders think taking off vintage legs and music desks to modernize the appearance, then removing any sign of the of the serial number will help them sell the piano as newer. This practice is at its best unethical and crooked, but again, in my humble opinion, it is still a compliment to Steinway's quality. All that being said, I would never, ever buy myself or encourage anybody to buy a rebuilt Steinway without a fallboard decal. It's like having a freshly restored Rolls Royce without the upright grill and mascot on front.
Also in my 25 years of being a tec., I have never seen anybody looking at rebuilt or "restored" Steinways, decide to go ahead and double their budget for a new one. I think for what Steinway charges for rebuilds, which leave nothing original, but the case and plate, not only defeats the idea of having a vintage Steinway, but I have found "all new" vintage "rebuilt by Steinway" pianos play and sound like a modern piano; meaning not as robust or rich as the old one.
Bad idea on Steinway's part. It won't really affect their sales or bottom line, but for technicians nationwide, the loss of respect will start the loss of reputation.


Mr. Ed
Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: edthetuner] #2776726
10/30/18 08:59 AM
10/30/18 08:59 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 86
St Louis, MO
J
jcgee88 Offline
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Joined: Apr 2016
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St Louis, MO
Originally Posted by edthetuner
Steinway...rebuilds...leave nothing original, but the case and plate...


This is not quite accurate, as Steinway will leave in whatever original usable parts the owner requests. For example, they asked me if I wanted to replace the key tops, to make them perfect, but I had them instead refurbish the ivory, even though some of the ivory has tiny cracks. Of course, your statement would be accurate for a worse case, heavily damaged instrument. So the minimum is the original case and plate, yes. Additionally, refurbished original parts in mine are: Lyre and pedals. Keys, keytops, and keyframe. Action frame. [I can't tell whether the dampers are new or were refurbished.]

Based on how much of the original action and keyboard are left, my sense is that the touch and feel are similar to what the original was. Having played brand-new, same-model Steinways at the dealer that is only a half mile from my house, I can tell that playing a new Steinway is quite a different experience than playing my vintage Steinway.


Originally Posted by edthetuner
I have found "all new" vintage "rebuilt by Steinway" pianos ... sound like a modern piano; meaning not as robust or rich as the old one.


This may well be true, though there is no way for me to tell exactly on my own piano, because it had no voice before I sent it off to be restored. Also, I like the sound of a modern Steinway, so that is no deficit for me.

John

Last edited by jcgee88; 10/30/18 09:02 AM.

1922 Steinway Model O, restored by Steinway Restoration Center, 2016. PianoDisc, installed 2017.
Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: jcgee88] #2776744
10/30/18 09:59 AM
10/30/18 09:59 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,957
Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
K
Keith D Kerman Online content
3000 Post Club Member
Keith D Kerman  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,957
Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Originally Posted by jcgee88
Originally Posted by edthetuner
Steinway...rebuilds...leave nothing original, but the case and plate...


This is not quite accurate, as Steinway will leave in whatever original usable parts the owner requests. For example, they asked me if I wanted to replace the key tops, to make them perfect, but I had them instead refurbish the ivory, even though some of the ivory has tiny cracks. Of course, your statement would be accurate for a worse case, heavily damaged instrument. So the minimum is the original case and plate, yes. Additionally, refurbished original parts in mine are: Lyre and pedals. Keys, keytops, and keyframe. Action frame. [I can't tell whether the dampers are new or were refurbished.]

Based on how much of the original action and keyboard are left, my sense is that the touch and feel are similar to what the original was. Having played brand-new, same-model Steinways at the dealer that is only a half mile from my house, I can tell that playing a new Steinway is quite a different experience than playing my vintage Steinway.


Originally Posted by edthetuner
I have found "all new" vintage "rebuilt by Steinway" pianos ... sound like a modern piano; meaning not as robust or rich as the old one.


This may well be true, though there is no way for me to tell exactly on my own piano, because it had no voice before I sent it off to be restored. Also, I like the sound of a modern Steinway, so that is no deficit for me.

John


I didn't know Steinway ( at least for the last decade or more ) would restore the parts you are listing. We have gotten several recently rebuilt by the Steinway factory Steinways and in the last few years they are always with new keysets including a new keyframe, never with restored keys and restored keytops. My understanding is that when Steinway rebuilds a piano they do everything possible new but the plate and rim. There might be exceptions on extremely old Steinways but yours is modern being from 1922.

Because new Steinway hammers are so different in sound from the hammers that were on your piano originally, for good or for bad, your piano sounds quite different than when it was original. Also, the weight of the hammers is significantly higher in current Steinway hammers compared to what they used in 1922 and I have never seen Steinway reduce their hammer mass to achieve a more authentic sound. The point of this is that significantly heavier hammers significantly change the sound and touch, well, significantly. This is no criticism of your piano, just a statement of fact. That you like your piano so much is the important part and had it been restored with an approach prioritizing authenticity you might not have liked as much.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out http://sitkadoc.com/
www.twitter.com/pianocraft https://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

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Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: pianoloverus] #2777266
11/01/18 12:52 PM
11/01/18 12:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 475
Chesterfield. MA
C
Craig Hair Offline
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Craig Hair  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Chesterfield. MA
This is Richard. not Craig. We had an 1872 Bluthner, and could not get the soundboard decal, the decal people wanted close to $900.00 to make us one, and I really haven't seen any exact copy's. Well, we had a freind here at Hampshire College, he took a good photo, made it the exact dimensions, on the best, thinnest photo paper, and "voila" we had an exact reproduction, for $0.17 a copy, "seventeen cents"so I made several. The first one I ruined, trying to shellac polish over it, I had to use sanding sealer over it first, then it wes possible to do so, "fr.polish" the whole board. So I thought I'd share this with those who are concerned with authentic restoration. It worked well and it is extremely difficult to tell it is not the original. "cloned" The grain in this original recrowned SB, is aligned with the grain in the photo, fools them good. We are defenitely going to try this on them big multicolor ones. Fall boards well ???. We're working on that next.

Here is a link to some pictures of the process.
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2777259.html

Last edited by Craig Hair; 11/01/18 12:55 PM.

Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Chesterfield, MA
Conservative Piano Restoration
Watch us on YouTube
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Sometimes, all you can hear is the cat snore.
Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: Craig Hair] #2777335
11/01/18 06:11 PM
11/01/18 06:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
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Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
🎹
Interesting, but with the large variety of proper decal stock available, why not just print on something appropriate and let the actual grain show through?


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: pianoloverus] #2777390
11/01/18 10:49 PM
11/01/18 10:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 259
Chernobieff Piano Offline
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Chernobieff Piano  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 259
That what I was wondering. How come you just don't print it on decal paper. I'm currently looking at different techniques myself. Check out this water slide technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomcdNVa3Wo


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee
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Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: pianoloverus] #2777401
11/02/18 01:57 AM
11/02/18 01:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
🎹
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Offline

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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
🎹
Yeah, cool stuff! I refinished a guitar a couple years ago, and couldn't get a replacement decal, so I basically did the same as in that video. It was a basic black logo on the wood grain headstock.

I think this process is pretty cool too:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h7FKdW5ndLw

It might be good for colorful emblems on a soundboard!


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: pianoloverus] #2777402
11/02/18 02:00 AM
11/02/18 02:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
🎹
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,771
🎹
Printing wood grain might be a clever way to conceal ugly soundboard cracks! wink


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: pianoloverus] #2777450
11/02/18 09:33 AM
11/02/18 09:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 475
Chesterfield. MA
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Craig Hair Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Chesterfield. MA
Hello, decal stock?, didn't know I could get that. Well---, if you could get some magic paper that eliminates all the background, then there would be no name board decal reproduction problems.
Do you folks know of this possibility, I'd like to know. There are still many pristine examples of beautiful decals "art" that should be photographed. Take a good look at the details in that Bluthner soundboard decal, honestly! do you really think I'd get back a replica that fine, like heck, the originality of the background "some of the old board look" is kool! to some, especially the owner of the instrument. I tried real hard to get a replica, this one is one of the only ones left.


Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Chesterfield, MA
Conservative Piano Restoration
Watch us on YouTube
https://plus.google.com/u/0/105412259108667869462

Sometimes, all you can hear is the cat snore.
Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: Craig Hair] #2777484
11/02/18 12:33 PM
11/02/18 12:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,895
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Oakland
There is a lot of photo software out there that can eliminate a background.


Semipro Tech
Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: Retsacnal] #2777578
11/02/18 05:15 PM
11/02/18 05:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,745
Vancouver B.C. Canada
Rod Verhnjak Offline
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Rod Verhnjak  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,745
Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Printing wood grain might be a clever way to conceal ugly soundboard cracks! wink


Well is done with exotic veneer under polyester. People think its real. Photo finish can mean a few things in this age.


Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

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Re: Problem getting Steinway fallboard and soundboard decals? [Re: pianoloverus] #2777721
11/03/18 07:51 AM
11/03/18 07:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 475
Chesterfield. MA
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Craig Hair Offline
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Craig Hair  Offline
Full Member
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 475
Chesterfield. MA
Like that stuff my mother lined the kitchen drawers with? Too funny.


Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Chesterfield, MA
Conservative Piano Restoration
Watch us on YouTube
https://plus.google.com/u/0/105412259108667869462

Sometimes, all you can hear is the cat snore.
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