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interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP #2776074
10/28/18 08:50 AM
10/28/18 08:50 AM
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Here is an interesting Reddit posting on piano technique. I was most interested by how it affected the OP. (Reposting here since the OP is writing about a new piano teacher and how certain teachings impacted them... even emotionally.)


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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2776148
10/28/18 12:34 PM
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Quote
You're supposed to view your fingers as hinges, and you press the keys by a lift and "grab" motion (not in the literal sense). Your fingers should feel as if they are "grabbing" the keys.

It's probably the worst thing that I've read in recent years.

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2776225
10/28/18 04:10 PM
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Very interesting short posting. It just shows that you never know how a particular teacher will affect a particular student.

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2776290
10/28/18 06:53 PM
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I have no idea what "fingers as hinges" means, except that my fingers do bend at the knuckles.
When I play, nothing "grabs" anything either literally or figuratively.


I've been trying to change my signature quote for weeks.

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2776388
10/29/18 07:35 AM
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Sounds like someone's heading for some repetitive stress injuries...


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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2776426
10/29/18 10:18 AM
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My thoughts fwiw:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Here is an interesting Reddit posting on piano technique. I was most interested by how it affected the OP. (Reposting here since the OP is writing about a new piano teacher and how certain teachings impacted them... even emotionally.)


There are two separate things to consider in this post. 1. The specific advice that the writer was given and summarized from his understanding. 2. The general idea of the focus of lessons by teachers, especially for the first years of instruction.

I'll start with no. 2. The crux of it is here:
Quote
among the five previous teachers I had, no one had taught me any of this. Every other teacher basically took the route of "you've learned piece A, here's a more difficult piece B," ...........

.... Furthermore, just because your student knows music theory and how that translates to a piano visually doesn't mean that you don't teach them anything about hand positioning and proper posture.

The going from piece A, to piece B, in increasing difficulty of repertoire is a common and (imho) mediocre way of teaching. I don't think any of the better teachers in this forum do that - and being in a forum like this already indicates that you are a teacher who cares about your teaching. Imho, the important thing for any student in the first years is to get foundations in all areas of playing. Adults may be more awkward than children in physical playing, and "fast progress" along levels of difficulty leaves this behind anymore.

If an incoming student seems to "already have a background in music" then the focus on foundations will often be even less. If I played trumpet before starting piano, my ability to shape my embouchure and breathe properly won't help squat in knowing how to use the hands on the instrument. But I've seen where such a student gets started HT, skipping what most students would do in the beginning so as to "not bore" that student, and so he misses the most important things to start him off right. He struggles forever after as the music increases in difficulty.

For no. 2, things like:
Quote
1) You're supposed to view your fingers as hinges, and you press the keys by a lift and "grab" motion (not in the literal sense). Your fingers should feel as if they are "grabbing" the keys. ....

In the live interaction between teacher and student, in the actual way that she changed his playing, what is described here maybe have fixed whatever it is that he was doing up to then. Without more experience in piano, this student may conclude that what he listed is "the" way to play. Somebody else having different habits may well get messed up by the same specific instructions. That is why many folks responding are objecting to the specifics.

The fact is that this teacher gave the student some physical principles of playing which helped him move forward and through his impasse, while his previous teachers only focused on repertoire and mumbled vague things when he tried to get help in this area - which should be a focus in the beginning in the first place. This part is tricky. Too tight and specific instruction on physical playing can mess a student up as much as too little. Beginner teachers who are good at what they do should get a medal (recognition) - they are at the top, not the bottom, of the totem pole.

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: keystring] #2776464
10/29/18 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
In the live interaction between teacher and student, in the actual way that she changed his playing, what is described here maybe have fixed whatever it is that he was doing up to then. Without more experience in piano, this student may conclude that what he listed is "the" way to play. Somebody else having different habits may well get messed up by the same specific instructions. That is why many folks responding are objecting to the specifics.



I think keystring has correctly seen the essence of this process.

If I could use a sports analogy:
Golf is a game of tips. If you look at any golf magazine, it will be full of articles with tips that will add distance and accuracy to your shots.

They are all correct, and yet none of them work.

Amateurs (oh, and probably most golf teachers as well) don't understand the fundamentals. There are fundamentals of stance, posture, balance, weight shift, rotation, plane angle, timing etc., that simply must be in place to hit the ball correctly. The "tip" is a specific correction for one specific fault, and if your other fundamentals are in place and you have that fault it will work. Since almost no amateurs have a clue about the fundamentals, they mistake the tip for a fundamental, and think it will fix their swing. When it doesn't, they go on to the next. But almost nobody can diagnose themselves.

A music teacher might introduce a drill, concept, or feeling that addresses a specific flaw in a student, and that student leaves thinking he/she now knows the key to playing mastery. And yet, the next student might have received opposite advice, if the music teacher is competent. Whatever that student was doing wrong, telling him to pull with his fingers seems to have had an impact on his playing. But we neither know what he was doing wrong, nor what physical effect using that mental image actually had.


gotta go practice
Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: TimR] #2776471
10/29/18 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR

A music teacher might introduce a drill, concept, or feeling that addresses a specific flaw in a student, and that student leaves thinking he/she now knows the key to playing mastery. And yet, the next student might have received opposite advice, if the music teacher is competent. Whatever that student was doing wrong, telling him to pull with his fingers seems to have had an impact on his playing. But we neither know what he was doing wrong, nor what physical effect using that mental image actually had.

In other words, get a good teacher. thumb


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2776563
10/29/18 05:08 PM
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I think the quoted text is really taken out of context. It is perfectly possible the student there is misrepresenting the instruction.

Heck, if any of my students writes gibberish about me online, people would think I'm the most incompetent teacher on planet Earth.


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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: AZNpiano] #2776590
10/29/18 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
I think the quoted text is really taken out of context. It is perfectly possible the student there is misrepresenting the instruction.

Heck, if any of my students writes gibberish about me online, people would think I'm the most incompetent teacher on planet Earth.

What about the general ideas presented here? I think we're discussing a lot more than one student's specific take on sample instructions. There is an overall picture that would seem rather important. smile

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2776606
10/29/18 07:23 PM
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The red flag for me is why a student would change teachers 6 times in 5 years, is this not excessive? I am not a piano teacher, however, I do have a background in education.


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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: DFSRN] #2776614
10/29/18 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DFSRN
The red flag for me is why a student would change teachers 6 times in 5 years, is this not excessive? I am not a piano teacher, however, I do have a background in education.

The answer may lie in two things:
a) This student had a background in music but not piano, so the previous teachers may have neglected to teach basic physical playing as in
b) The part I quoted and commented on.

This is quite common, and you can get into a loop. Each subsequent teacher assumes you "already know how" to do things, and assumes that since you "studied music" you will want to go fast up along repertoire. Nobody ever goes back to basic technique, or even thinks about it. Until you finally discover that there is such a thing as things underneath it all that you've been missing all along, so as to look for it .... or find it .... the loop just keeps going.

I came close to having this happen to me. While it was going on I only knew "something doesn't seem to be ok".

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2776616
10/29/18 08:07 PM
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"You're supposed to view your fingers as hinges, and you press the keys by a lift and "grab" motion (not in the literal sense). Your fingers should feel as if they are "grabbing" the keys."

This sounds to me like she is telling the student to play from the metacarpophalangeal joints. A similar analogy is lifting and grabbing a handkerchief. I think this is a good way to illustrate how relaxed arms and hands feel, especially if the student bends the fingers to play a note.

"The connection from your arm to your fingers should be straight, and not angled."

I assume this means that the line from the elbow to the middle finger should be straight when viewed from above.

It's not unusual to have a string of bad teachers who neither know nor care about technique. Anyone can set themselves up as a piano teacher. I've had three teachers, and the first never even mentioned technique. Teacher no.2 judged my technique by the music I was able to play. That's more common than we might like to think.

Last edited by johnstaf; 10/29/18 08:16 PM.
Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: DFSRN] #2776619
10/29/18 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DFSRN
The red flag for me is why a student would change teachers 6 times in 5 years, is this not excessive? I am not a piano teacher, however, I do have a background in education.


It sounds pretty normal for elementary school, doesn't it?


I've been trying to change my signature quote for weeks.

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: keystring] #2776637
10/29/18 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
What about the general ideas presented here? I think we're discussing a lot more than one student's specific take on sample instructions. There is an overall picture that would seem rather important. smile

The problem is that each section blooms into a huge topic all by itself. For example, you can go on and on about Technique, and then you'll run into people who tout one Technique over another Technique. Some Technique might be even contradictory to another Technique.

I've seen bits and pieces of the Technique outlined in that short post. I don't agree with all of it, and I think it may even have been a combination of two different schools of Technique. Some people will believe that Technique religiously, even fanatically defending it against All Other Techniques.

That, in a nutshell, is a problem when we discuss Technique on the Internet.


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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2776639
10/29/18 11:08 PM
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Technique is one of those things I've found horrible to describe or understand over text on the Internet. Videos are generally more helpful.


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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: AZNpiano] #2776642
10/29/18 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by keystring
What about the general ideas presented here? I think we're discussing a lot more than one student's specific take on sample instructions. There is an overall picture that would seem rather important. smile

The problem is that each section blooms into a huge topic all by itself. For example, you can go on and on about Technique, and then you'll run into people who tout one Technique over another Technique. Some Technique might be even contradictory to another Technique.


Sorry for not being more clear. I was referring to the two issues that were highlighted by me and TimR. Technique was only one of the two issues, and imho, the less important one. It's in my post - and then Tim's. smile

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: keystring] #2776645
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Originally Posted by keystring
Sorry for not being more clear. I was referring to the two issues that were highlighted by me and TimR. Technique was only one of the two issues, and imho, the less important one. It's in my post - and then Tim's. smile

Are you talking about the "loop"?

This is what happens when the student changes teachers frequently. They carry baggage of various types. Technique is just one bag.

BTW, some technique can't be taught to first-year students or lackluster beginners (like the ones I have right now). There are many advanced techniques that won't be applicable or even doable until much later.


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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: johnstaf] #2776695
10/30/18 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Your fingers should feel as if they are "grabbing" the keys."

.....This sounds to me like she is telling the student to play from the metacarpophalangeal joints.

"The connection from your arm to your fingers should be straight, and not angled."

.....I assume this means that the line from the elbow to the middle finger should be straight when viewed from above.



I think what this illustrates is that we have no idea what the teacher actually said from the student's description. So evaluating whether the advice is good or bad is fraught with risk. But bottom line this teacher apparently did attempt to address an issue of basic technique, and the student was grateful.

My first two piano teachers didn't not address technique and I'm pretty sure were blissfully unaware. Though I did learn some things from them, I also did not fix any self taught bad habits. Contrast that to my trombone teacher, who has a deep understanding of technique at a very high level (but the majority of trombone teachers prefer to ignore technique as likely to lead to "paralysis by analysis," for historical reasons.)


gotta go practice
Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: AZNpiano] #2776701
10/30/18 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by keystring
Sorry for not being more clear. I was referring to the two issues that were highlighted by me and TimR. Technique was only one of the two issues, and imho, the less important one. It's in my post - and then Tim's. smile

Are you talking about the "loop"?

This is what happens when the student changes teachers frequently.


I referred to my first post. In that post I did not talk about this loop. I don't know if you went back to that post (found it).

No, I wrote about this phenomenon: A student starts lessons with a teacher who does not bother to give any foundations, esp. physical foundations, and simply goes through pieces of increasing difficulty. The student who never got the tools continues to struggle as he "advances" because no teacher has bothered giving the tools. This happens more frequently when a student has some other background in music, so the teacher thinks he doesn't have to teach basics / the student would be insulted by basics. If you imagine a trumpeter being taught piano under the assumption that his breath control and embouchure will magically teach his hands to move - you get the picture.

Besides any specific technique, there is the question of being taught how to move, period. The writer went through five teachers, begging them to help with his mysterious problems when a few said things like "look at your hands". The sixth teacher finally gave some technical advice.

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: keystring] #2776838
10/30/18 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
No, I wrote about this phenomenon: A student starts lessons with a teacher who does not bother to give any foundations, esp. physical foundations, and simply goes through pieces of increasing difficulty. The student who never got the tools continues to struggle as he "advances" because no teacher has bothered giving the tools.

Well, even at the "physical foundation" level, there are disagreements among teachers. For example, how "round" does the hand have to be? And where does this roundness come from (tension, or naturally relaxed position)? I'm at the point in my teaching where I sincerely doubt the value of teaching round hand shape to young beginners, yet you still see pictures of round hands in these method books; some having all the fingers lined up in a curled position. That will cause more problems further down the line.

Originally Posted by keystring
This happens more frequently when a student has some other background in music, so the teacher thinks he doesn't have to teach basics / the student would be insulted by basics. If you imagine a trumpeter being taught piano under the assumption that his breath control and embouchure will magically teach his hands to move - you get the picture.

No, I actually don't get the picture. This is not applicable. Are there piano teachers who are actually stupid enough to think this way?

Originally Posted by keystring
Besides any specific technique, there is the question of being taught how to move, period. The writer went through five teachers, begging them to help with his mysterious problems when a few said things like "look at your hands". The sixth teacher finally gave some technical advice.

Again, there are disagreements about how to move. Some teachers still teach their students to lift each individual finger as high as possible and slam down into the key. You also have to take the student's individual propensities and abilities into consideration. If you insist on having a round hand shape upon a 6-year-old child with soft fingers and weak joints, you will get nowhere. I teach arm weight, yet there are kids whose joints automatically collapse if I insist on having them transferring weight into each individual finger.

In my experience, almost every single student moves their fingers and hands at an acceptable level of wobbliness and instability--at the beginning level. Only those students with exceptionally bad coordination and/or physical problems need correction. Then, I start teaching technique when it is appropriate, to the repertoire and to the student's physical/mental development. Most of the problems with technique that I've seen is when teachers try to push too far ahead in repertoire, and the student doesn't have the proper technique and/or physical/mental development to play that music.

Right now, I'm teaching a very intelligent 7-year-old boy who is hopelessly small, with very soft fingers. I can't get him to play anything evenly, yet he can read music blazing fast. So I slowed down his repertoire progress and wait until his physical development can catch up. There are other things, such as theory and ear training, that I can do while we wait for the body to catch up to the brain.


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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: AZNpiano] #2776889
10/30/18 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by keystring
This happens more frequently when a student has some other background in music, so the teacher thinks he doesn't have to teach basics / the student would be insulted by basics. If you imagine a trumpeter being taught piano under the assumption that his breath control and embouchure will magically teach his hands to move - you get the picture.

No, I actually don't get the picture. This is not applicable. Are there piano teachers who are actually stupid enough to think this way?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. By now I've talked to a number of people or read stories that went along those lines. The teacher isn't going to literally say "your breath control as a trumpeter will tell you how to make your hands move", but there is some kind of an idea that if you have a background in any kind of instrument, you can skip steps and don't need to be taught things. I remember one story where on day 1 the teacher had the student start with HT music,and it wasn't totally basic music either. The thing is that if you already play an instrument, you can figure things out after a fashion at home. You can "work out" Minuet in G note by note, figure out where the notes go, and bang out something plausible at the end of the week. But you haven't been taught how to play the piano. You might be better of learning on your own and finding some good technical videos or on-line teachers of the good kind, and work more slowly at your own pace.

By "technique" and "technical foundations" I don't mean round hands holding apples or those kinds of things you mention. But I've talked to students with teachers who didn't know they should be sitting at an optimum height or distance - they were sitting really low or really high, maybe super close to the piano, and then wondered why everything hurt or was that hard. Meanwhile, if you are a student with a musical background in another instrument, you may be pushed super fast. All that creates strain. Going more slowly, observing the student, guiding along the way, makes a lot of sense.

The student who was quoted on Reddit was a music student who had studied theory, and so he is likely to have been rushed through in this manner. It is a pattern I have seen. It happens to adult students because of the tale that adults want to move fast, and it can happen especially to any student who has any kind of musical background and starts piano with a teacher. I agree that it is stupid.
quote] Most of the problems with technique that I've seen is when teachers try to push too far ahead in repertoire, and the student doesn't have the proper technique and/or physical/mental development to play that music.[/quote ]
Yes, that is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It happens especially with students who have some background in music, but not piano.

Quote
Right now, I'm teaching a very intelligent 7-year-old boy who is hopelessly small, with very soft fingers. I can't get him to play anything evenly, yet he can read music blazing fast. So I slowed down his repertoire progress and wait until his physical development can catch up. There are other things, such as theory and ear training, that I can do while we wait for the body to catch up to the brain.

He is lucky to have you as a teacher. smile

I like the expression body catch up to the brain. This is a particular issue for adult students, because we can comprehend things very quickly and that fools some teachers. Our bodies need to catch up. Not only that, but our way of moving may no longer be as natural as a child's (though there are some awkward children I'm sure), and we don't want to entrench the habits of strain that comes from the body falling behind the brain. (love the analogy!)

Last edited by keystring; 10/30/18 06:33 PM.
Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: keystring] #2776936
10/31/18 12:24 AM
10/31/18 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
But I've talked to students with teachers who didn't know they should be sitting at an optimum height or distance - they were sitting really low or really high, maybe super close to the piano, and then wondered why everything hurt or was that hard.

Oh, there's no consensus on that, either!!

When I transferred to my last piano teacher before college, he made me sit lower at the piano and quite a bit far away from the keys. Like I'm supposed to "lean into" the piano. It resulted in awkward arm position and unbelievable tension. This idea came from three different teachers at Juilliard.

Now that I sit much higher and not SO far away from the keys, I tell my students the same. Then I get these stupid judges and evaluators who tell my students they are sitting too high and too close. This old-world, unscientific view is like a chronic disease that won't go away.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: AZNpiano] #2777028
10/31/18 10:25 AM
10/31/18 10:25 AM
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JohnSprung Online content
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
When I transferred to my last piano teacher before college, he made me sit lower at the piano and quite a bit far away from the keys. Like I'm supposed to "lean into" the piano. It resulted in awkward arm position and unbelievable tension. This idea came from three different teachers at Juilliard.

Now that I sit much higher and not SO far away from the keys, I tell my students the same. Then I get these stupid judges and evaluators who tell my students they are sitting too high and too close.


From Gould to Garner, pianists have made all kinds of positions work. The one notion that has some common sense behind it is that it's better to have your tendons straight while they're moving, which means straight wrists while your fingers are moving.

Perhaps it would be best to have students try a variety of positions and see what works.


-- J.S.

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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: JohnSprung] #2777032
10/31/18 10:35 AM
10/31/18 10:35 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content OP
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
From Gould to Garner, pianists have made all kinds of positions work.

Early pianists like Hanon even apparently made 'piston fingering' work:
[Linked Image]
In my opinion, not every technique suggested by every pedagogue is equally valid.


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: JohnSprung] #2777035
10/31/18 10:42 AM
10/31/18 10:42 AM
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AZNpiano Offline
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
From Gould to Garner, pianists have made all kinds of positions work. The one notion that has some common sense behind it is that it's better to have your tendons straight while they're moving, which means straight wrists while your fingers are moving.

Perhaps it would be best to have students try a variety of positions and see what works.

I disagree with that last statement. If I know for certain what works best, that is what I will teach. At the same time, I don't intend to fix what is not broken.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: AZNpiano] #2777112
10/31/18 05:04 PM
10/31/18 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by JohnSprung
From Gould to Garner, pianists have made all kinds of positions work. The one notion that has some common sense behind it is that it's better to have your tendons straight while they're moving, which means straight wrists while your fingers are moving.

Perhaps it would be best to have students try a variety of positions and see what works.

I disagree with that last statement. If I know for certain what works best, that is what I will teach. At the same time, I don't intend to fix what is not broken.


Hmmm.... It sounds like you now disagree with the very thing you did yourself when you were a student. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Personally, I too head a bit more towards Garner than Gould.


-- J.S.

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Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: keystring] #2777119
10/31/18 05:38 PM
10/31/18 05:38 PM
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Keystrings thanks for your response, that makes sense. My first teacher I had for 2 years, he was playing for a symphony and went on to advance his career. My current teacher of 3 years recently has me going back to easier music so I am leaning to play without stopping and getting all the counts correctly. As a novice, I do think there is value in keeping the same teacher and working with them even if the student does not agree. Novice students don't know what they don't know. Now if the student is advanced and the teacher and the student have different theoretical views, that may be an issue. However, novices , as myself, that would probably not be an issue.


Deb
"A goal properly set is halfway reached." Zig Ziglar
Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: AZNpiano] #2777333
11/01/18 06:08 PM
11/01/18 06:08 PM
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keystring Offline
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by keystring
But I've talked to students with teachers who didn't know they should be sitting at an optimum height or distance - they were sitting really low or really high, maybe super close to the piano, and then wondered why everything hurt or was that hard.

Oh, there's no consensus on that, either!!

When I transferred to my last piano teacher before college, he made me sit lower at the piano and quite a bit far away from the keys. Like I'm supposed to "lean into" the piano. It resulted in awkward arm position and unbelievable tension. This idea came from three different teachers at Juilliard.

Now that I sit much higher and not SO far away from the keys, I tell my students the same. Then I get these stupid judges and evaluators who tell my students they are sitting too high and too close. This old-world, unscientific view is like a chronic disease that won't go away.

I do not like any kind of dogma in any direction. I had a variety of experiences before being where I am now in things. My conclusion at present is that there are some general principles at work. For example:
- sit high vs. sit low; sit close vs. sit high (which you just presented). --- Instead of this: Your seating may affect the comfort and ease with which you play. Or as you worded it: optimum height. And then play with that. Are we on the same page?

I'd want a teacher to have a feel for and understanding of how the body works, esp. on the instrument, how the instrument functions, and then to be observant. S/he addresses what is seen, what the student reports, and maybe encourages the student to experiment and then sees the results. There should be some focus on this at the beginning, especially with adult students where the tendency may be to rush forward in repertoire levels too fast. (Our conversation started with the implausible but common story of the hypothetical advanced trumpet student starting piano).

I am also very cautious about "dogma" teachers who press some rule they learned; or some solution that worked for their own personal problem. From what I encountered, these teachers don't see the student in front of them. They see what is supposed to work, even when it doesn't. They may blame the student for not trying hard enough, anything except question whether that dogma actually works.

Re: interesting posting on technique & how it affected the OP [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2777356
11/01/18 07:42 PM
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-- J.S.

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