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Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
David-G #2774333 10/21/18 12:27 PM
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Some pianists have big egos.

Schiff has a bigger ego than most (from what I've heard of him in interviews) - and he's just about the only classical musician who insists that his knighthood is appended whenever he's introduced or addressed. Whereas the likes of Sir Simon, Sir Andrew, Sir Mark, Dame Mitsuko etc are embarrassed if their interviewers address them by their bestowed titles. (BTW, I'm talking about András, not Heinrich, who was a thoroughly nice guy).

And he often doesn't even practices what he preaches so adamantly.

As for Schiff's actual playing, there's nothing from him (from Bach to Beethoven to Brahms to Bartók) that I prefer to several other pianists. He has a tendency to prissiness, even in rep that demands full-on power and forcefulness.

And he often doesn't even practice what he preaches so adamantly.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
bennevis #2774392 10/21/18 04:18 PM
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This is what makes life interesting. You can take the finest performance say from S. Richter and look on youtube and people will give it bad reviews or thumbs down. That said everyone has different tastes. I for one highly enjoy his interpretations. His WTC has been the benchmark for me for decades. Every note crystal clear yet beautiful legato playing in general. I have purchase too numerous to count recordings of the same from Edwin Fischer to a new recording played by Alexandra Papastefanou. I still find myself coming back to Schiff.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
DazedAndConfused #2774398 10/21/18 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
Schiff is an ill mannered fool. He nor could the OP possibly be 100% certain of the need or otherwise for the cough so the human being should always be given the benefit of the doubt rather than being publicly shamed by an egomaniac who seems to think he is a gift from god.

Disagree. The OP can be as good as 100% certain. He was there and the circumstances were very clear.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
David-G #2774404 10/21/18 05:30 PM
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I bet it was actually the OP that coughed and they're just writing this thread to see what we think about it laugh

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
Zaphod #2774691 10/22/18 06:49 PM
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Excuse me, I have never yet coughed in a concert.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
David-G #2775416 10/25/18 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by David-G
Excuse me, I have never yet coughed in a concert.


Congratulations for having a super-healthy respiratory system! Give yourself a biscuit.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
David-G #2775427 10/25/18 12:05 PM
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Not such a good idea. Biscuits can lead to dry tickly coughs!

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
David-G #2775561 10/25/18 10:47 PM
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I consciously learned how to "swallow" coughs, after I read that it was possible (I think it may have been in something Brendel wrote or said). Now I am convinced that, unless you are so ill with a virus that you should be home in bed, a cough is almost always avoidable. At least it is for me. The trick is to keep your swallowing mechanism continuously working until the impulse to cough goes away. You can't cough and swallow at the same time, after all. It is a technique that actually works, but I wouldn't have known to try it without reading about it - it's not very intuitive, and it does feel a bit weird.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
wr #2775608 10/26/18 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
I consciously learned how to "swallow" coughs, after I read that it was possible (I think it may have been in something Brendel wrote or said). Now I am convinced that, unless you are so ill with a virus that you should be home in bed, a cough is almost always avoidable. At least it is for me. The trick is to keep your swallowing mechanism continuously working until the impulse to cough goes away. You can't cough and swallow at the same time, after all. It is a technique that actually works, but I wouldn't have known to try it without reading about it - it's not very intuitive, and it does feel a bit weird.
You have described a technique taught by speech therapists to people with a chronic coughing problem. It can definitely work but is not always successful as I know from my personal experience trying it.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
David-G #2775610 10/26/18 06:45 AM
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I once coughed at a concert. It came out of nowhere. Earlier my lungs had started tickling, and I worked really hard to suppress the cough. Then when I thought it was gone, it got me. Luckily I had my hand over my mouth and nobody seemed to notice. It probably helped that the music was very loud.

I often wonder if concert pianists have a phobia about sneezing. Can you imagine?

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
wr #2776688 10/30/18 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
I consciously learned how to "swallow" coughs, after I read that it was possible (I think it may have been in something Brendel wrote or said). Now I am convinced that, unless you are so ill with a virus that you should be home in bed, a cough is almost always avoidable. At least it is for me. The trick is to keep your swallowing mechanism continuously working until the impulse to cough goes away. You can't cough and swallow at the same time, after all. It is a technique that actually works, but I wouldn't have known to try it without reading about it - it's not very intuitive, and it does feel a bit weird.


That's the important bit. People arrive at a concert hall with different levels of respiratory health, allergies and neurological control. It is impossible for me, you, the OP or Andras Schiff to say whether or not that particular individual could have done more to avoid that cough. And the level of self-entitlement that puts a bogus need to complete the communion with God via an evening with Bach versus the health need of a human being who waited until the music was finished before coughing, is jaw dropping.

For info: Wigmore Hall is in Central London a city with one of the worse levels of air pollution in the developed world. London exceeds its annual limit for air pollution before the end of January every year.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...n-limit-just-one-month-into-the-new-year
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...g-dangerous-levels-of-toxic-air-particle

Where there is bad air there are allergies and asthma and the increased risk of coughing. More than 12% of the UK population has been diagnosed with asthma. I dread to think what the percentage is in London. We took the painful decision to move out of London for one reason and one reason only, so our children could grow up with better air quality.

I am not a cougher. My wife is. She is also a lover of music and culture. If she has a cough during a musical or theatrical performance, it is because she needs to not because she wants to.

I think a little more tolerance of human foibles and frailties would make the world a much better place in so many ways.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
prout #2776723 10/30/18 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
those who do and produce this level of music should be accomodated.


Not really.

Regardless of how talented a person is, a poor attitude, and poor treatment of other PEOPLE is more important than being able to skilfully twinkle their fingers on a piano. The tolerance of this behaviour for people with great ability is what allows them to act like this.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
DazedAndConfused #2776745 10/30/18 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
Originally Posted by wr
I consciously learned how to "swallow" coughs, after I read that it was possible (I think it may have been in something Brendel wrote or said). Now I am convinced that, unless you are so ill with a virus that you should be home in bed, a cough is almost always avoidable. At least it is for me. The trick is to keep your swallowing mechanism continuously working until the impulse to cough goes away. You can't cough and swallow at the same time, after all. It is a technique that actually works, but I wouldn't have known to try it without reading about it - it's not very intuitive, and it does feel a bit weird.


That's the important bit. People arrive at a concert hall with different levels of respiratory health, allergies and neurological control. It is impossible for me, you, the OP or Andras Schiff to say whether or not that particular individual could have done more to avoid that cough. And the level of self-entitlement that puts a bogus need to complete the communion with God via an evening with Bach versus the health need of a human being who waited until the music was finished before coughing, is jaw dropping.

For info: Wigmore Hall is in Central London a city with one of the worse levels of air pollution in the developed world. London exceeds its annual limit for air pollution before the end of January every year.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...n-limit-just-one-month-into-the-new-year
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...g-dangerous-levels-of-toxic-air-particle

Where there is bad air there are allergies and asthma and the increased risk of coughing. More than 12% of the UK population has been diagnosed with asthma. I dread to think what the percentage is in London. We took the painful decision to move out of London for one reason and one reason only, so our children could grow up with better air quality.

I am not a cougher. My wife is. She is also a lover of music and culture. If she has a cough during a musical or theatrical performance, it is because she needs to not because she wants to.

I think a little more tolerance of human foibles and frailties would make the world a much better place in so many ways.


"At least it is for me", you have arbitarily decided that this is "the important bit", I am not sure that is the case.

So if we take this... "If she has a cough during a musical or theatrical performance, it is because she needs to not because she wants to. ""

You say you are not a cougher but your wife is, but you also assume that EVERYBODY only coughs because they need to, which is plainly not the case on many occasions, using a cough to attract attention to yourself is fairly common practice. Therefore the subject matter of the OP is relevant and it would be agreed, almost anywhere but the internet, that he is the best judge of the situation.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
slipperykeys #2776781 10/30/18 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by slipperykeys
Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
Originally Posted by wr
I consciously learned how to "swallow" coughs, after I read that it was possible (I think it may have been in something Brendel wrote or said). Now I am convinced that, unless you are so ill with a virus that you should be home in bed, a cough is almost always avoidable. At least it is for me. The trick is to keep your swallowing mechanism continuously working until the impulse to cough goes away. You can't cough and swallow at the same time, after all. It is a technique that actually works, but I wouldn't have known to try it without reading about it - it's not very intuitive, and it does feel a bit weird.


That's the important bit. People arrive at a concert hall with different levels of respiratory health, allergies and neurological control. It is impossible for me, you, the OP or Andras Schiff to say whether or not that particular individual could have done more to avoid that cough. And the level of self-entitlement that puts a bogus need to complete the communion with God via an evening with Bach versus the health need of a human being who waited until the music was finished before coughing, is jaw dropping.

For info: Wigmore Hall is in Central London a city with one of the worse levels of air pollution in the developed world. London exceeds its annual limit for air pollution before the end of January every year.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...n-limit-just-one-month-into-the-new-year
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...g-dangerous-levels-of-toxic-air-particle

Where there is bad air there are allergies and asthma and the increased risk of coughing. More than 12% of the UK population has been diagnosed with asthma. I dread to think what the percentage is in London. We took the painful decision to move out of London for one reason and one reason only, so our children could grow up with better air quality.

I am not a cougher. My wife is. She is also a lover of music and culture. If she has a cough during a musical or theatrical performance, it is because she needs to not because she wants to.

I think a little more tolerance of human foibles and frailties would make the world a much better place in so many ways.


"At least it is for me", you have arbitarily decided that this is "the important bit", I am not sure that is the case.

So if we take this... "If she has a cough during a musical or theatrical performance, it is because she needs to not because she wants to. ""

You say you are not a cougher but your wife is, but you also assume that EVERYBODY only coughs because they need to, which is plainly not the case on many occasions, using a cough to attract attention to yourself is fairly common practice. Therefore the subject matter of the OP is relevant and it would be agreed, almost anywhere but the internet, that he is the best judge of the situation.



The only assumption I make is that I only have experience of being me. I have zero experience of being anyone else, inhabiting their body, experiencing their psychology, so I, like you, like the OP, like Andras Schiff are in no position whatsoever to decide whether or not another individual needed to cough. And when in doubt, give the benefit of the doubt and don't judge.

The ridiculousness of this situation is that the audience member actually waited until the end of the music to cough, but oh no, he interrupted Schiff's holy communion and must be shamed and 'put in his place' by the laughably pompous maestro .... Schiff is the one who should be ashamed of himself.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
slipperykeys #2776818 10/30/18 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by slipperykeys

You say you are not a cougher but your wife is, but you also assume that EVERYBODY only coughs because they need to, which is plainly not the case on many occasions, using a cough to attract attention to yourself is fairly common practice.


Are you suggesting a situation where someone is at a classical music gig, waits until the music has stopped and then deliberately coughs to draw attention to themselves?

This seems a little irregular...I have trouble making that stick in my mind.

It is certainly the case that people often cough to draw attention to themselves, for example, before a speech, or similar, but in this music concert situation it seems highly unlikely. Unless of course, it is a puerile joke, which could be possible, I suppose.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
David-G #2776823 10/30/18 02:05 PM
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My wife, who does not participate in this forum asked me to post this about Schiff's behavior.

Mrs. Slothrop:
"Top artists often perform immersively, where the music passes through the lens of their own emotions and they express those emotions in their performance. It is not easy to switch out of this moment of open expression, honesty, and even vulnerability, and when something negative suddenly occurs for them, they might express their frustration through behavior lacking in the usual courtesy, since they are still in a psychological state of being open and honest - their frustration is also a reflection of that honesty. I feel this speaks in their favor since caught in that moment, they overreact. It is what makes them a talented artist."


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Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
DazedAndConfused #2776857 10/30/18 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
Originally Posted by slipperykeys
Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
Originally Posted by wr
I consciously learned how to "swallow" coughs, after I read that it was possible (I think it may have been in something Brendel wrote or said). Now I am convinced that, unless you are so ill with a virus that you should be home in bed, a cough is almost always avoidable. At least it is for me. The trick is to keep your swallowing mechanism continuously working until the impulse to cough goes away. You can't cough and swallow at the same time, after all. It is a technique that actually works, but I wouldn't have known to try it without reading about it - it's not very intuitive, and it does feel a bit weird.


That's the important bit. People arrive at a concert hall with different levels of respiratory health, allergies and neurological control. It is impossible for me, you, the OP or Andras Schiff to say whether or not that particular individual could have done more to avoid that cough. And the level of self-entitlement that puts a bogus need to complete the communion with God via an evening with Bach versus the health need of a human being who waited until the music was finished before coughing, is jaw dropping.

For info: Wigmore Hall is in Central London a city with one of the worse levels of air pollution in the developed world. London exceeds its annual limit for air pollution before the end of January every year.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...n-limit-just-one-month-into-the-new-year
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...g-dangerous-levels-of-toxic-air-particle

Where there is bad air there are allergies and asthma and the increased risk of coughing. More than 12% of the UK population has been diagnosed with asthma. I dread to think what the percentage is in London. We took the painful decision to move out of London for one reason and one reason only, so our children could grow up with better air quality.

I am not a cougher. My wife is. She is also a lover of music and culture. If she has a cough during a musical or theatrical performance, it is because she needs to not because she wants to.

I think a little more tolerance of human foibles and frailties would make the world a much better place in so many ways.


"At least it is for me", you have arbitarily decided that this is "the important bit", I am not sure that is the case.

So if we take this... "If she has a cough during a musical or theatrical performance, it is because she needs to not because she wants to. ""

You say you are not a cougher but your wife is, but you also assume that EVERYBODY only coughs because they need to, which is plainly not the case on many occasions, using a cough to attract attention to yourself is fairly common practice. Therefore the subject matter of the OP is relevant and it would be agreed, almost anywhere but the internet, that he is the best judge of the situation.



....... And when in doubt, give the benefit of the doubt and don't judge.

The ridiculousness of this situation is that the audience member actually waited until the end of the music to cough, but oh no, he interrupted Schiff's holy communion and must be shamed and 'put in his place' by the laughably pompous maestro .... Schiff is the one who should be ashamed of himself.

You appear quite content to judge, "the laughably pompous maestro...." giving him no "benefit of the doubt" whatsoever.

Last edited by slipperykeys; 10/30/18 04:18 PM.
Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
Tyrone Slothrop #2776858 10/30/18 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
My wife, who does not participate in this forum asked me to post this about Schiff's behavior.

Mrs. Slothrop:
"Top artists often perform immersively, where the music passes through the lens of their own emotions and they express those emotions in their performance. It is not easy to switch out of this moment of open expression, honesty, and even vulnerability, and when something negative suddenly occurs for them, they might express their frustration through behavior lacking in the usual courtesy, since they are still in a psychological state of being open and honest - their frustration is also a reflection of that honesty. I feel this speaks in their favor since caught in that moment, they overreact. It is what makes them a talented artist."



Please thank your wife, she has shown a lot of sense and understanding. Still, perhaps I'll just get my big verbal stick out to assault the artist..... Seems the populist route.

It would be nice to see how we react when/if such an event overtook ourselves. I have a feeling a little more understanding for the performer might be shown!

Last edited by slipperykeys; 10/30/18 04:16 PM.
Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
Tyrone Slothrop #2776870 10/30/18 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
My wife, who does not participate in this forum asked me to post this about Schiff's behavior.

Mrs. Slothrop:
"... their frustration is also a reflection of that honesty. I feel this speaks in their favor since caught in that moment, they overreact. It is what makes them a talented artist."



Seriously? Not every talented Artist is arrogant and rude. Sounds like a trend with this guy.

They are professionals ... deal with it. Also, they have the stage so intentionally centering someone out could be very humiliating and is certainly unprofessional. No amount of greatness or sickness, or being old or just generally grumpy gives anyone permission to be rude.

Re: A cougher put in his place - an extraordinary vignette
Tyrone Slothrop #2776881 10/30/18 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
My wife, who does not participate in this forum asked me to post this about Schiff's behavior.

Mrs. Slothrop:
"Top artists often perform immersively, where the music passes through the lens of their own emotions and they express those emotions in their performance. It is not easy to switch out of this moment of open expression, honesty, and even vulnerability, and when something negative suddenly occurs for them, they might express their frustration through behavior lacking in the usual courtesy, since they are still in a psychological state of being open and honest - their frustration is also a reflection of that honesty. I feel this speaks in their favor since caught in that moment, they overreact. It is what makes them a talented artist."



Not all 'top artists' are petulant brats. The bratty ones don't deserve a free pass due to talent. Here is how an artist twice the calibre of Andras Schiff deals with a much more intrusive irritation than a single cough after the performance has finished.



It is called a sense of perspective.

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