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Need Grand ASAP
#2776527 10/29/18 03:35 PM
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Dear all,

I need help. I don’t play piano but I have 2 kids who’s been playing piano since they were 7 years old. They’re now 12 (almost 13) and 10.5. I never bought a piano before. The one they’re using now belonged to my sister in-law who had moved to different country. It’s a (I believe) 1973 Yamaha upright. My son broke the pedal last week, the middle is now completely bended to the front, and the right one does not produce the sound/effect anymore.
The kids’s teacher has been encouraging us to buy a new(er) piano for 2 years now and has been persistently suggesting a Steinway model M priced at around $25k more less. My husband does not want to spend too much money for a piano, stating that he’s not sure how long our kids will be on the instrument considering their schedule is getting more and more packed as they get older.
The past weekend I visited 2 stores. I have the following options to choose:
- Petrof 5’8” model IV $23,000 (1998) Petrof IV (would be a model 172 - 5’8”)
- Steinway 1921 234810 M 5’7” completely rebuilt $24,900
- Schimmel upright 130T $12,500 (Konzert) ((5’1”)               
- Perzina model 5’9” GBT-175 $18,000 new
- Perzina black 188 2009 0300970 6’1”$10-11,000 used
- Hallet Davis & Co 5’6” China $9000 brand new
- Hallet & Davis 2016 6’2” GP188 signature collection $8500
Prices I listed above are asking price. I haven’t tried to bargain yet.
I don’t imagine my kids to be a professional player whatsoever because it’s even harder to make them practice now as is.
Now my questions:
1. considering value for the dollar, which piano would you suggest and why?
2. Regarding the rebuilt Steinway, is It too old? How can I know it’s a good quality? I’ve asked my kids to try playing it, they both said that the keys are too light compared to the Steinway they use at the teacher’s studio. I need stiffer keys for the kids to practice their finger strength.
3. I read some article about perzina on this forum but i am worried it’s a little outdated and mostly on upright and not so much on Grand. Please give me some inputs on perzina Grand.
4. Same on Hallet Davis. Most articles/treads are rather outdated. Please share more opinion on this too

Thank you, thank you so much for your time and help 🙏

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776546 10/29/18 04:23 PM
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Petrof - If you really like that piano, you need to hire a top level piano technician to thoroughly inspect it. They had major quality control issues when this piano was made. If corrected, they can be pretty nice. They are rarely corrected. Price is high enough on this piano that it would have to be a superb example.

Steinway M - very unlikely it is completely rebuilt or even close to it at that price. Even more unlikely at that price that the work done is high level. Pass

Schimmel upright - what year? Likely a good piano

The other pianos are ones that I am not familiar with their current versions.


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Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776547 10/29/18 04:26 PM
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Your post caught my attention, partially due to the 'ASAP' which in my mind immediately set alarm bells ringing.
Please, whatever you do, take....your.....time for the purchase of a piano, that is really so important! So many people have suffered buyers remorse for not doing sufficient research and ending up with a piano that doesn't suit their needs or their wallet.
Another thing. If myself or my son had a piano teacher who persistently suggested buying a Steinway model M, I would be looking for another teacher before the week was out.
The views of your husband are so correct, why spend huge amounts of money if there is no certitude that your children will really take to it seriously, especially as they grow older. I give him credit for his wise advise.
Now for some practical help. Personally at this stage I wouldn't consider any of the pianos you listed. For starters, seriously consider an upright. Take your time and look around for a quite recent i.e. 8-10 year old, used upright Yamaha U1 or U3, or a Kawai upright. If you should be in a location and unable to find one, other makes and models could eventually be recommended such as Schimmel, and Petrof.
Others more knowledgeble than myself will surely provide additional advise. In the meantime, make this piano purchase an enjoyable experience, allowing you children to play on the instruments that you may shortlist, and finally get a piano technician (not associated with the store or the seller) to check it out in order to give the thumbs-up. Oh, and do NOT buy asap. Take....your.....time!


Currently working on:-
C Major scale (r/h only - starting with the pinkie finger)......

Dear Noah,
We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5.
Yours sincerely,
The Unicorns

(Sent from my Sinclair ZX81)..........



------------------------------

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776549 10/29/18 04:27 PM
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Might not be a bad idea to rent a piano while you're looking, to take the urgency away from the situation.


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Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776550 10/29/18 04:33 PM
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Any used piano should be checked out for you by an independent technician. It is well worth the investment to do so.

The 94 year old Steinway may or may not be a good deal depending on who did the work, how well it was done and what remains to be done. If your kids feel the action is too light - I'd advise you to steer clear. Don't be swayed by the Steinway name - or by the suggestion of the teacher that your kids should have a Steinway. Many folks become accomplished pianists without ever practicing on Steinways.

Other than the Steinway brand, Schimmel generally is by far the best built instrument in the bunch. However, without knowing the age of the upright, and it's condition, I can't tell you whether the price is good. Petrof is also near the same ballpark, quality wise - but $23K seems high for a 20 year old Petrof, condition notwithstanding.

Hallet Davis is pretty much bottom of the barrel. Perzina is a step up. The $18K asking price for the GBT-175 is reasonable - but you should try to negotiate it down a bit ($15 or $16K?).

This chart from PianoBuyer should be useful to you.

https://www.pianobuyer.com/Articles/Detail/ArticleID/242

This (Staff Picks) might also help.....

https://www.pianobuyer.com/Articles/Detail/ArticleId/243/The-New-Piano-Market-Today-Staff-Picks

If you really want a baby grand, with good potential resale value, I'd suggest that you consider the newer lower end Kawai (GL-10 or GL-20) or Yamaha (GB1K) pianos or similar models from the past.

Are there other dealers in your area?


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Re: Need Grand ASAP
cmb13 #2776552 10/29/18 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Might not be a bad idea to rent a piano while you're looking, to take the urgency away from the situation.


An excellent suggestion. We did this for 2 years and then when a certain talent appeared to be confirmed, we bought the same piano, with the amount we had paid over those years deducted by the dealer.
It was some time later that we looked around for our dream piano. That was an upright too, a European (German) piano, which has given great joy over the last 10 years.

Last edited by Tweedpipe; 10/29/18 04:43 PM.

Currently working on:-
C Major scale (r/h only - starting with the pinkie finger)......

Dear Noah,
We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5.
Yours sincerely,
The Unicorns

(Sent from my Sinclair ZX81)..........



------------------------------

Re: Need Grand ASAP
cmb13 #2776566 10/29/18 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Might not be a bad idea to rent a piano while you're looking, to take the urgency away from the situation.


Or at least get yours fixed. If you can find someone who can do a good job fixing it, you will have someone that can help you select a piano.


Semipro Tech
Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776575 10/29/18 05:32 PM
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I cannot believe the attitude this teacher has. Buy a reasonable
Piano . These delusions of Steinways pianos living forever is bit
Much !
Your kids said the keys are too light so that's enough .
I agree the Schimmel sounds the best . Otherwise go for another
piano in your price range .I am not going to say Y............. or K.........
because I may be accused of promoting these
pianos as I so often reccomend them .Good Luck !

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776584 10/29/18 05:59 PM
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Of what you listed, I would have most interest in the petrof, but with petrof, the newer the better.

Looking at your general budget, I would try to find some of the following brands to compare if possible:
Kawai : Rx /Gx models in 5-6 ft length
Yamaha: C series against 5-6 ft I think C2
Estonia 168: Try to find one made around 2005 or later

Those are all very good makes with different sounds and I think you could find them within your budget if they are in used but very good condition. Even if you don't like any of these models, I think playing them will give you a good idea of what you would like. Good luck!

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Keith D Kerman #2776585 10/29/18 06:00 PM
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Thanks Keith. The schimmel is 1992

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Carey #2776587 10/29/18 06:09 PM
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Thanks Carey for the advice and article. Yes we have other dealers in the area. I will have the kids play on those to see what they think. You won’t believe it but the teacher doesn’t really “approve of” a YAMAHA 🤦‍♀️

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776593 10/29/18 06:27 PM
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my thoughts aren't significantly different than Tweedpipe's or Carey's.

anyone categorically recommending a used steinway M probably has a limited sample of those in their experience, or a sentimental attachment to a couple of pianos in their past or present. model M's are not representative of steinway piano making at its best, relative to their other products, and considering what other top piano companies have done in that length of grand. the golden age M you're considering might be exemplary, but the variables are huge - - how was it used, kept, and restored in the intervening 90+ years. a technician who has done top notch restoration work would be able to provide a working appraisal.

if your kids are not headed to professional piano studies, entering competitions und so weiter, a serious upright (like the Schimmel) will serve their needs as well as a grand, and an excellent upright offers more musical satisfaction than a mediocre small grand. you also have far more flexibility in where to site the piano with an upright, and less potential for conflict with television addicts, if those are part of the household. t.v. addiction is essentially antithetical to practicing music.

if you have doubts whether you'll still want to have a piano in the house ten years from now, you will likely have an easier time selling a steinway, petrof, schimmel (or yamaha) than the re-branded, made in China perzina/hallet davis. similar to a car, the better you care for it, the more value it will retain. the rebranded pianos' resale will affected by consumer perception (have not played any of the new generation made in china pianos myself).

without knowing the condition, playability, musicality of specific pianos, and what else is available in your market within your budget, no one can pick out one or two candidates from your list as 'keepers'. if your budget is $15-20 k., in most major metro areas in the u.s. that can find you excellent uprights and very good used small grands. if you're in Walnut CA, LA county, metro LA/orange county is one of the best places for the piano consumer.

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776594 10/29/18 06:32 PM
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I would say from your kids perspective that the piano
Is just one of the many things they are active in,
a good upright is all they need .Newer is better .
With the prices of these grand pianos you
could even buy a new piano of a good make .
A grand piano often requires more service
by a technician .A good upright is more likely to
service a bit of rough housing from your boys . Regards

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776600 10/29/18 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ConfusedinWalnut
Thanks Carey for the advice and article. Yes we have other dealers in the area. I will have the kids play on those to see what they think. You won’t believe it but the teacher doesn’t really “approve of” a YAMAHA 🤦‍♀️


That says more about the teacher than it does about Yamaha.

Look what this poor girl has to put up with... grin


Last edited by johnstaf; 10/29/18 06:48 PM.
Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776635 10/29/18 10:28 PM
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You won’t believe it but the teacher doesn’t really “approve of” a YAMAHA 🤦‍♀️

That's a hoot! My tuner (trained concert pianist) loves to tune my Yamaha P2, and when finished then plays it for 5 or 10 minutes. Said he doesn't do that at the end of most tunings (when I told him it doesn't sound like that when I play it ) but that he enjoys playing the instrument. So there!

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776647 10/30/18 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ConfusedinWalnut
Thanks Carey for the advice and article. Yes we have other dealers in the area. I will have the kids play on those to see what they think. You won’t believe it but the teacher doesn’t really “approve of” a YAMAHA 🤦‍♀️
A reasonable price for a 1992 Schimmel C130 in excellent condition from a dealer should be no more than $8K. You could purchase a 1992 Schimmel baby grand for $12,500.

Hopefully the teacher won't have a problem with Kawai (ha ha).

You should check out Living Pianos in Santa Ana and Hollywood Piano in Burbank. I've heard good things about both.


Last edited by Carey; 10/30/18 12:09 AM.

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Re: Need Grand ASAP
Carey #2776651 10/30/18 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by ConfusedinWalnut
Thanks Carey for the advice and article. Yes we have other dealers in the area. I will have the kids play on those to see what they think. You won’t believe it but the teacher doesn’t really “approve of” a YAMAHA 🤦‍♀️
A reasonable price for a 1992 Schimmel C130 in excellent condition from a dealer should be no more than $8K. You could purchase a 1992 Schimmel baby grand for $12,500.

Hopefully the teacher won't have a problem with Kawai (ha ha).

You should check out Living Pianos in Santa Ana and Hollywood Piano in Burbank. I've heard good things about both.

I'm also assuming you've checked out the Los Angeles Craigslist musical instrument/piano listings...... smile


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Re: Need Grand ASAP
Carey #2776656 10/30/18 01:43 AM
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Why on earth a grand piano for a such situation
Her husband has said he does not want to spend a huge amount on a piano .The kids are going to have more much more activities and may stop music lessons .The more expensive this piano is though,the more tied they will be to these lessons.
Well then the newest Steinway M possible is best !

Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776659 10/30/18 02:29 AM
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Have you considered paying your kids' piano teacher to go "piano shopping" with you? Some teachers would be willing to do that. Some teachers would even do it for free.

Then, before you make a purchase of a used piano (if you are going with a used piano), make sure you get TWO independent piano technicians to examine it.


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Re: Need Grand ASAP
Happy-in-Walnut #2776666 10/30/18 03:29 AM
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If you have the piano teacher to go shopping with you, I think her only choice would be Steinway.

I would recommend that you have your kids try all pianos at your price range and see which ones they like most and go from there.

You might want to consider trying brand new Yamaha CX and Kawai GX series. Those are good pianos. And I think those models will be easier to sell if you decide to sell the piano in the future. Evey piano player has his own preference. It's your kids who are going to practice on the piano regularly so their preference is more important.

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