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Today I feel like I’m starting to connect with this piece and understand it. Not sure how fluid and fast my 35 notes will ever be so I came up with a ritardando in measures 53 and 54, 2 measures before the rapid passage. I’m hoping that will make my slower run less noticeable.
Are you all planning to post a recording once you feel good about your performance?
Sounds great - glad it’s coming along. I have most of it but I am away so no practice this week . I will record it but it will be another month or two before I’m really comfortable or up to speed. Possibly for the next recital? I still love the piece btw - possibly even more as I learn it more intimately.
Well, I nearing the finish line. It’s just about two months. I still have a little bit of polishing to do, and have to make sure that I can smooth out certain sections, but tonight, for the first time, I played it from start to finish without interruption! Very excited .
Cmb13, Are you thinking of submitting it for the quarterly recital? It would be interesting if a few people submitted their recordings to hear the differences in intepretation. I think I am almost to the point of recording the piece.
Not sure....I didn't think it would be recital-ready but we'll see how it goes over then next two weeks. I'm looking forward to when I can lean a piece like this in a week and have it ready in another week! Still a little way off I think. I did manage to stumble through 72.1 last night just for fun on one attempt though, so getting a little better.
I hadn't been planning on submitting this but since both of you, Ellen and Craig, have mentioned it I've been working to that end. I'll be able to confirm before submissions open whether I've got it as good as I think I need it but it's looking positive so far.
Originally Posted by Fidel
...how do you play the 35 note fioritura at the end of the c# nocturne? I can't get it fast enough to stay in tempo over the LH.
I saw this on another thread but just in case Fidel is still around...
My feeling is that the listener will accept whatever tempo is used here provided the accents are weighted appropriately for bringing out the metre. So for me the phrasing (and grouping) is more important than the tempo.
This is the case with all four of these fioriture and I practise each of them i) once through playing only in my head, ii) once with RH only on the piano, iii) once using LH only on piano with RH in my head, and iv) once playing both hands together but concentrating on putting the accents the right places (on the right notes, not necessarily at the right time): on the D# at the top in M58, again in M59, the F# in M60 and the G# in M61.
Graham Fitch has a general practise method of alternating LH and RH alone, zig-zag practise he calls it, that I find very appropriate for this kind of issue so the above is my personal variation on his idea that I've adapted to taste.
Recorded this afternoon. Not sure I will be submitting it for the quarterly recital. I'm feeling OK about the tempo and pacing but hearing it - still need to work on more dynamic contrast and bringing out the top notes in the opening section.
Nice playing, Ellen! The runs at the end were really smooth. I also thought the trills were good. I have trouble with the E-F# trill in M51 (I think - not looking at the score right now). I’ve been using 1-3 but it’s an odd trill imo.
Is that a photo of your piano room? Such a beautiful setting!
Here's an interesting essay on this nocturne. It was written by Melanie Spanswick, who I had not heard of before, but offers some nice insights into the piece. It was good to read it after I've learned but before completing my practice on the piece, as it may enable me to get more out of it at this stage and hopefully improve my rendition.
OK CMB and dogperson. Thanks for the references. Both interesting, though I could only listen to 'piano career girl' for 20 minutes before tuning out. All very good info -EXCEPT- one important item.
They both speak of and demonstrate rubato, but, as far as I could tell, neither mentioned that Chopin writes the rubato into the score as notation. Claudio Arrau plays using the rubato marked in the score, perhaps a bit too much for our modern, MIDI sewing machine ears, but at least he recognizes that which the vast majority of piano teachers do not know and do not teach.
Look at the first two measures. Listen to Claudio or 'piano career girl'. Get a pulse going in your fingers in 1/8th notes. Notice that both pianists slow down slightly and then hold the first beat 1/4 note of the second measure. Why do they both do that? Because Chopin told them to with the hairpins. The opening hairpin means to broaden out the time and the closing hairpin, in this case, means to pause, almost imperceptibly, on the first note, then return to the original tempo by the end of the closing hairpin.
This occurs with every hairpin in the piece. They don't mean crescendo and decrescendo, though that will naturally happen as a result of an ascending line or descending line. Remember, in Chopin's era, one always got louder as the pitch increased and got softer as the pitch decreased, unless the composer indicated otherwise.
OK CMB and dogperson. Thanks for the references. Both interesting, though I could only listen to 'piano career girl' for 20 minutes before tuning out. All very good info -EXCEPT- one important item.
They both speak of and demonstrate rubato, but, as far as I could tell, neither mentioned that Chopin writes the rubato into the score as notation. Claudio Arrau plays using the rubato marked in the score, perhaps a bit too much for our modern, MIDI sewing machine ears, but at least he recognizes that which the vast majority of piano teachers do not know and do not teach.
Look at the first two measures. Listen to Claudio or 'piano career girl'. Get a pulse going in your fingers in 1/8th notes. Notice that both pianists slow down slightly and then hold the first beat 1/4 note of the second measure. Why do they both do that? Because Chopin told them to with the hairpins. The opening hairpin means to broaden out the time and the closing hairpin, in this case, means to pause, almost imperceptibly, on the first note, then return to the original tempo by the end of the closing hairpin.
This occurs with every hairpin in the piece. They don't mean crescendo and decrescendo, though that will naturally happen as a result of an ascending line or descending line. Remember, in Chopin's era, one always got louder as the pitch increased and got softer as the pitch decreased, unless the composer indicated otherwise.
Good points. Arrau's version is sublime, I must admit. I just ordered some Henle books so I'll see if these Urtext versions differ with regards to the hairpins, rubato markings, etc.
cmb13 gives an excellent summary earlier in this thread regarding the various versions available. Both manuscripts are available on line and really help to recognize the lengths to which publishers have gone to differentiate their editions from other publishers. As a result, many teachers in the videos are presenting ideas and techniques to play stuff that is not in the manuscripts.
If you really want to dig into this music, and it really is worth doing, I suggest you look at the manuscripts and then make your own descisions as to what to play and how to interpret the piece.
There are two pieces of advice I can offer.
One, when you play the melody, think of a how and where a singer would breathe.
Two, the scales at the end. Take your time rising to the peak, and then accelerate back down to the bottom in each case. This is marked by hairpins. Remember, rising lines usually get louder and descending lines get softer. This naturally occurs in the human voice and blown instruments, and keyboard teachers have been teaching this since long before pianos existed.
Great find, prout - all on one page! Is that an original manuscript? I wonder if it is; it would be cool to have a high quality printout and frame it! I had not heard of hairpins used for acceleration and deceleration before, but your above post does make sense.
I played through the piece last night without stopping; I was very happy. Dynamics and all. However, there are a few spots that still I have to think about, such as in the 2nd eighth note, whether to hit a D# or F#, or a couple of other areas that use one or another note. So basically it's memorized but not yet secure.
Thanks for everyone to contributing to this thread and I hope others now or in the future can find this one useful!
As I reflect on what I've gotten from this piece, it's been just over 2 months; I figure it will be secure by the 3 month mark. An entire season, but I don't mind. If i can continue to learn a piece of this caliber at a rate of 4 / year, I'd be very happy. Meanwhile I've tackled some other lingering projects at the same time.
I think I continued to improve on dynamics with this piece, learned to relax to play some fast runs a little more freely and efficiently, worked on memorization, hopefully my trills are improving; there are a fair amount in this piece. I won't claim to play this to a concert level by any stretch, or even as well as some of the more seasoned ppl in this thread, but every piece like this adds more tools to the toolbox!
. I will record it but it will be another month or two before I’m really comfortable or up to speed. Possibly for the next recital? I still love the piece btw - possibly even more as I learn it more intimately.
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