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Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775592
10/26/18 05:37 AM
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I've just compared it (very briefly) to a few U-tube versions. Doesn't sound any more mechanical than the ones I listened to. BTW I've never really likes this piece (sorry!) - apart from the slow section. I think the recording does sound slightly veiled and a bit muddy?
My thoughts for what little they are worth.

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Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: chopin_r_us] #2775607
10/26/18 07:32 AM
10/26/18 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Horribly mechanical. It's obviously been rendered in a number of ways. What ever floats yer boat smile


I've got to agree, there are a few reasons, which I won't give away as that seems in error on this thread! If there were good reasons I would have been happy but I got a load of stalling, all for unknown reasons, so deeply suspicious.

As for the " find me a piano that sounds that good", well, any proprietary manufacturer fits the bill, so that's a no-go.

I don't think we will ever get the truth here. Perhaps one to filter? I'll think about it, my ignore list gets ever longer!

All IMO.

Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775621
10/26/18 08:52 AM
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""You never asked anyone their opinion about something?""

No, because I believe that would be a naive thing to do. If I ask questions I want qualification of the opinion given, in which case they might, quite rightly, ask why and I would answer properly, if I was taking the subject seriously.

But have you?

So this is an accurate question fitting this scenario, "Have you ever asked an anonymous group of individuals their opinion of, for example, and as is the obvious case here, a specific work of art without reference to their education, knowledge, experience, intelligence, age and reasons" ?

And again, no.

However, if the questioner had an ulterior motive my qualifications may not fit their needs.


Last edited by slipperykeys; 10/26/18 08:53 AM. Reason: Punctuation error.
Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: slipperykeys] #2775623
10/26/18 09:09 AM
10/26/18 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by slipperykeys
""You never asked anyone their opinion about something?""

No, because I believe that would be a naive thing to do. If I ask questions I want qualification of the opinion given, in which case they might, quite rightly, ask why and I would answer properly, if I was taking the subject seriously.

But have you?

So this is an accurate question fitting this scenario, "Have you ever asked an anonymous group of individuals their opinion of, for example, and as is the obvious case here, a specific work of art without reference to their education, knowledge, experience, intelligence, age and reasons" ?

And again, no.
You may not have asked people their opinion but thousands(probably many tens of thousands) of posts at PW do just that. And what about looking at reviews of products at Amazon or virtually every other site selling something? A huge majority of people look for other peoples' opinions on a variety of things even if those people are anonymous and not vetted.

Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: slipperykeys] #2775676
10/26/18 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by slipperykeys
As for the " find me a piano that sounds that good", well, any proprietary manufacturer fits the bill, so that's a no-go.

The comment was find me a MIDI piano that sounds that good. I have yet to hear an artificial piano that does.

Quote
I don't think we will ever get the truth here.

Clearly patience isn't in your repertoire.

I was hoping to get more responses as to opinions on the performance.

Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775685
10/26/18 03:29 PM
10/26/18 03:29 PM
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You ask for opinions on ‘this performance’ or ‘rendition’. It could be construed as opinions on any aspect of the mp3. file, including recording technique, noise, quality of piano, as well as how accurately and musically the notes were played.

I am going to leave aside everything but the playing of the notes. This is an OK work by Chopin, not his best, but, at its best, that is, when played well, sounds laid back, easy, flexible, comfortable.

This rendition sounds tense, rushed, too metronomic, and with artificial tempo changes. It left me feeling nervous, not comfortable. With the help of a very fine coach, the person who created this rendering could improve the quality of the music making. I don’t mean that it is necessarily an artificially constructed MIDI render, but that it is not naturally musical, the kind of musicality that comes from someone born ‘with it’, not aquired through 10,000 hours of practice.

My opinion only, of course.

Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775702
10/26/18 04:34 PM
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The player is no good. The piano is no good. The dynamics are no good. The tempo is no good. The recording is no good ( for ten reasons that are not good) The improvisations are no good. The piece is no good. The thread is no good. Other than that I like it. Just my opinion.


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Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: prout] #2775703
10/26/18 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
You ask for opinions on ‘this performance’ or ‘rendition’. It could be construed as opinions on any aspect of the mp3. file, including recording technique, noise, quality of piano, as well as how accurately and musically the notes were played.

What I was referring to is the performance - this rendition as opposed to other renditions. I'd reword it for clarity but unfortunately they have the forum set up to disable further editing after a couple of minutes.

Quote
With the help of a very fine coach, the person who created this rendering could improve the quality of the music making.


FWIW my understanding is the player has had top-level coaching.

Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775722
10/26/18 05:50 PM
10/26/18 05:50 PM
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With the Fantasie-Impromptu, the general conversation should be "How close to Perahia does this person get?"

With that in mind, overall this moves along at a similar tempo to Perahia, with comparable clarity and shape. The key differences are:

1) Anonymous takes more time (micro and macro), especially in the reprise and coda, which I think hampers the overall sense of direction.

2) The shape of the singing in the cantabile section is more heavy-handed than Perahia.

3) Anonymous adds two embellishments with fairly good style, leading me to wonder whether it's an older pianist (as the competition-heavy culture these days doesn't seem to allow as much latitude). The first embellishment at 2:10 might have originated with Lympany or Cziffra:

Lympany:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciIbIKb5_ag&t=2m36s
Cziffra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow1c8esX3bQ&t=2m48s

The other seems to be from Horowitz:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x93pwAvUkAA&t=2m33s

tl;dr:
Good, ok embellishments, not Perahia.

Pianists it isn't:
- Perahia (for aforementioned reasons)
- Lipatti, Rubenstein, Cziffra, Horowitz (they all take way more time than Anonymous)
- Lympany (recording quality is too good, also she is faster).

Last edited by Think Schifferent; 10/26/18 05:53 PM.

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
...
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the Schifference.
Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775838
10/27/18 08:18 AM
10/27/18 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by brassplyer
Originally Posted by Rowy van Hest
Not a midi piano, but a virtual piano, like Pianoteq or Arturia, rendered with the help of a DAW. But there are dozens of them, some are very good.

The problem with any artificial piano (or artificial anything) is that none of them produce sound the way a real piano does and you don't hear it the way you hear a live piano. Same fundamental difference between listening to a recorded piano vs live - you're listening to what the mics hear the way mics hear it and rebroadcast via some kind of amp/speaker. No matter how sophisticated the recording or synthesizer and playback it's not the same.

Have you ever heard a recording of any instrument or ensemble where you thought it was indistinguishable from a live performance?

Has there ever been a blindfold test in a live setting with experienced ears where they couldn't distinguish between the real thing and an artificial piano? I'd be very surprised to hear that this had ever happened.


I'm not saying a render sounds just as good as a live performance, because it doesn't. That's why I heard that the mp3 is a render and not the recording of a real piano player. So we agree on that.


A piece a day keeps the debt collector away.
Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: chopin_r_us] #2775841
10/27/18 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Horribly mechanical. It's obviously been rendered in a number of ways. What ever floats yer boat smile


Yeah. I think it's a nice hoax though. Now let's wait and see which artificial made piano composition is going to fool the lot of us wink


A piece a day keeps the debt collector away.
Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: Rowy van Hest] #2775843
10/27/18 08:36 AM
10/27/18 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Rowy van Hest
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Horribly mechanical. It's obviously been rendered in a number of ways. What ever floats yer boat smile

Yeah. I think it's a nice hoax though. Now let's wait and see which artificial made piano composition is going to fool the lot of us wink

I've been impressed by the collective ability of the PW community to root out piano-playing hoaxes and fakes ever since this thread a few months ago. thumb


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775900
10/27/18 01:45 PM
10/27/18 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by brassplyer


Clearly patience isn't in your repertoire.



I don't need patience as I am content with all my observations and I am confident that I am destined to remain so.

Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775971
10/27/18 07:38 PM
10/27/18 07:38 PM
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It's Lola Astanova - I believe it's the only full-length version of it she has on Youtube. After seeing prejudiced reactions to her based on factors other than her playing that I found on here in previous threads I was curious to see what the feedback would be in an anonymous setting. Some clearly have a real issue with her showing up looking like a Robert Palmer girl.

The only thing I did to it was add a touch of modeled reverb in SoundForge to give it more of a concert hall sound. The original audio has a distinctive, close-mic'd ambience that I thought might give it away if anyone was familiar with the video.

Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775978
10/27/18 08:01 PM
10/27/18 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by brassplyer
It's Lola Astanova - I believe it's the only full-length version of it she has on Youtube. After seeing prejudiced reactions to her based on factors other than her playing that I found on here in previous threads I was curious to see what the feedback would be in an anonymous setting. Some clearly have a real issue with her showing up looking like a Robert Palmer girl.

The only thing I did to it was add a touch of modeled reverb in SoundForge to give it more of a concert hall sound. The original audio has a distinctive, close-mic'd ambience that I thought might give it away if anyone was familiar with the video.

Lol. I posted a video of her playing La Campanella blindfolded only a few days ago. The Robert Palmer girl thing she has done to herself. A few years ago, she looked pretty wholesome if one looks for older videos of her like:

I don't think her talent has gotten any less as she's remade herself. She's just remade herself in the last 3 years or so, including with some obviously augmented parts. Her piano playing is just now viewed through a different lens than before.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775981
10/27/18 08:25 PM
10/27/18 08:25 PM
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Even now she is able to tone it down when she wants. Here she was at her performance of Rhapsody in Blue that won her the Emmy award just two years ago. Severely toned down and if not completely wholesome, at least just "girl next door":


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2775989
10/27/18 08:56 PM
10/27/18 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Lol. I posted a video of her playing La Campanella blindfolded only a few days ago. The Robert Palmer girl thing she has done to herself. A few years ago, she looked pretty wholesome if one looks for older videos of her like:

I saw that Don't Stop The Music video a few days ago - pretty cool.

I don't have any problem with her dolling up - she's a superb player. Of course some will turn their noses up anyway and find a reason to find fault with her. For those whose sensibilities just can't deal with it there are plenty of starched shirt and bow tie players.

Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: brassplyer] #2775990
10/27/18 09:09 PM
10/27/18 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by brassplyer
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Lol. I posted a video of her playing La Campanella blindfolded only a few days ago. The Robert Palmer girl thing she has done to herself. A few years ago, she looked pretty wholesome if one looks for older videos of her like:

I saw that Don't Stop The Music video a few days ago - pretty cool.

I like her Gershwin Emmy performance too. It showed her playing a virtuosic piece in a serious manner, well coordinated with a professional orchestra. And of course, the pianist is the anchor for the entire piece there.

There is no question in my mind. She is a serious musician although I don't think she takes herself entirely seriously. I just think she is perhaps a shade less talented then a Yuja Wang or Khatia Buniatishvili, which probably enough that she had to change some things up to try to compete.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: pianoloverus] #2775991
10/27/18 09:57 PM
10/27/18 09:57 PM
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I wasn't able easily to make this be played (do we need to do a download?), and so I didn't, and I'm figuring just as well, because from the discussion, it looks like I might be in danger of getting into a whoop-de-doo like on this old thread, which was quite a thing.
For any old timers here who click on that, it will probably bring back memories. ha

But just wanted to mention.....

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
The variants in the middle section were interesting but not particularly Chopinesque IMO. (I hope someone doesn't now say that are some newly discovered variants by Chopin haha.)

I learned at one of the amateur Chopin competitions in Warsaw that there is at least one variant version. As I remember, it involved some differences in both the outer sections and the middle section. If I heard the thing that was posted here, I might or might not be able to tell if it's the same as the variant that I heard; I'd probably be able to say if it probably is or isn't.

Re: Thoughts on this Fantaisie Impromptu performance [Re: Mark_C] #2775997
10/27/18 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
I wasn't able easily to make this be played (do we need to do a download?), and so I didn't

In the upper right you should see a downward pointing arrow with a line under it to download - click and it should bring up an applet to play or save.

Or you can just view the video on Youtube - Lola Astanova Fantaisie Impromptu.

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