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190 Estonia of 1991 #2770321
10/07/18 04:23 PM
10/07/18 04:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 15
egypt
H
hassan Offline OP
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hassan  Offline OP
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egypt
Hi , everybody,
I recently came across a 1991 estonia 190 model and I have 2 questions;
How reliable is estonias of pre Laul period?
This piano has 2 pedals which is quite unusual for a grand of that size and of that age.And also it has no Duplex scaling, is that important.?

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Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2770329
10/07/18 05:22 PM
10/07/18 05:22 PM
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Posts: 1,095
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huaidongxi Offline
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hassan, if you look over vintage pianos from some very prestigious brands, you'll see many of their grands have just two pedals. the bass sustain pedal first had to gain widespread popularity, before becoming a convention. every manufacturer did not adopt the bass sustain pedal at the same period, and given the overall economic condition of what became the Baltic republics in the early 'post cold war' period, apparently Estonia did not yet commit the investment at the time of the piano in question. [have myself never played any Estonia, from any period, re. the other part of your query]

if you are looking for a 'high performance' grand piano, try auditioning grands of similar size to the 190 that have duplex scaling to the Estonia, and see if you can hear a difference. of course, the pianos should also be in a similar state of tuning and voicing. here are some details on the physical characteristics of duplex scaling, and why some builders use it.

https://livingpianos.com/piano-parts/what-is-duplex-scaling-piano-questions/

Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2770337
10/07/18 05:48 PM
10/07/18 05:48 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,176
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
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Not sure what you mean by "reliable". As far as I know the pre-Laul Estonias are not considered very good., but exactly what that means I'll have to leave to others more familiar with them. I don't think lack of a middle pedal or lack of duplex scaling are nearly as important as the more general quality considerations.

Finally, the cost is a consideration. If it is low enough, any deficiencies might be overlookable.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/07/18 05:49 PM.
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2770839
10/09/18 02:11 PM
10/09/18 02:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,741
Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Regarding your question of reliability, pre-Laul era Estonia pianos did not always have access to the best suppliers, but the current condition of the piano is easily assessed by a qualified technician. Even with the remarkable differences in the pre-Laul vs. today, they were still considered "good" then, but with some common, fairly obvious problems with the finish (loose poly, warping lid). By now those issues are either apparent or not.

By the late 1990's but still pre-Laul era, The Piano Book - Larry Fine, still rated Estonia above Yamaha & Kawai and approximately the same as Petrof. If you find that book (Green or Red editions) you'll find some pleasant descriptions of Estonia even then.

As was stated, quite a few reputable makers had only 2 pedals because the sostenuto is so infrequently used. Makers that wanted to be successful in the US all caved to the 3-pedal request in grands.

The lack of duplex scaling is also not an issue as much as a characteristic. You either like how it performs or you don't. There are notable makers today that still choose not to employ duplexing.

Don't look at it for what it isn't, look at it for what it is. As far as being an Estonia, you can think of it as being transitional. As far as being a good choice, judge it as it sits. Once a piano is 27 years old, a tech can easily see what it is and what servicing can make of it.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
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Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2770910
10/09/18 08:12 PM
10/09/18 08:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,262
Reseda, California
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JohnSprung Offline
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1991 is very early in the transition, very Soviet. If you like it and your tech clears it, negotiate the price way way down.


-- J.S.

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Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2770947
10/10/18 01:32 AM
10/10/18 01:32 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,457
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Quote
1991 is very early in the transition, very Soviet. If you like it and your tech clears it, negotiate the price way way down.


+ 1

Norbert


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2771008
10/10/18 10:04 AM
10/10/18 10:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,333
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Sir Lurksalot Offline
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In previous threads here, it's been stated that Estonias from the 90s were inconsistent. Some good ones and some not-so-good ones. And obviously very different from today's model.

Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2774948
10/23/18 03:54 PM
10/23/18 03:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 8
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Millyz Offline
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Millyz  Offline
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Hassan, we seem to be looking at the same pianos! I am now looking at this Estonia ... it’s 176cm so I think it’s a 168 Estonia rather than a 190 model (yes, I measured it 😂). The piano seems to be in a very good shape but the action seems to be on the heavier side. I am still thinking about it. I am really interested in your thoughts especially that my technician actually prefers the Kawaii with the missing serial digit or the unclear history saying that the kawai sounds so much better and its action is a lot lighter. However, he did admit that the Estonia seems to be newer and seems to have seen way less use than the kawai. The only thing that worries him about the Kawai is the rusty strings...I am now very confused. Shall I go for the more worn out kawai with the dubious history and rusty strings but great action and sound or shall I go for the Estonia in great condition but with heavier action and less impressive sound?


Used to play...a bit rusty...now I'm back...
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: Millyz] #2774973
10/23/18 05:48 PM
10/23/18 05:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 311
UK, EU
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precise Offline
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I posted a fairly similar question re one of their 1985 concert grands http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...tonia-274cm-1985-advice.html#Post2769562

Reading through, you'll see opinions that say they are now pretty much worth nothing - unless you find a rare gem you're in love with.

From research, it seems that up until 1990 they were pure Soviet - strong, possibly well built. But after 1990, as JohnSprung and others have said, the company changed hands and produced pianos of varying quality. In fact, I've heard that they were pretty terrible until the Laul takeover.

Originally Posted by Millyz
I am now looking at this Estonia ... it’s 176cm so I think it’s a 168 Estonia rather than a 190 model
They only made two models - the 190 and the 274. Unless I'm wrong... smile

I did try the 1985 concert grand recently - yet to update my earlier post on how that went! It was in original condition, totally worn out, brassy and knackered. Poor thing. But it was probably a great instrument in its day. I just didn't want to buy it and have it restored - no idea how it may have turned out. And there are so few that we have no points of reference.

As to the new, Laul Estonias. I know they have many fans here. I'm not one of them, alas. I find them inconsistent, and tonally bland and weak. I don't think Laul has quite 'cracked' it yet, IMO...




Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: precise] #2775044
10/23/18 10:56 PM
10/23/18 10:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 8
M
Millyz Offline
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My understanding is that the Estonia 190 is 6”3’... this one was definitely below 6”... I measured it... which can only mean one thing: this piano was not made in 1990. Its serial number is 4892 and looking it up, I can only find that it was produced any time from 1990 to 1997. I have emailed Estonia trying to find out the exact year of manufacturing but still have not gotten an answer. The lack of history of used pianos in Egypt is frustrating. Sellers can hardly give any accurate information about the pianos they are selling.


Used to play...a bit rusty...now I'm back...
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2775053
10/24/18 12:21 AM
10/24/18 12:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,635
Encino, California
ChatNoir Offline
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ChatNoir  Offline
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Encino, California
My Estonia 168 was built in 2000, and the serial number is 0463. Number 4892 indicates that this is a Estonia 190 built in 1991.


Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2775080
10/24/18 05:13 AM
10/24/18 05:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 8
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Millyz Offline
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Millyz  Offline
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This is quite bizarre. Could I have measured incorrectly? But the technician measured it too. It came out at 176cm 🤷🏻‍♀️


Used to play...a bit rusty...now I'm back...
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: Millyz] #2775228
10/24/18 02:25 PM
10/24/18 02:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,262
Reseda, California
J
JohnSprung Offline
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Reseda, California
Originally Posted by Millyz
This is quite bizarre. Could I have measured incorrectly? But the technician measured it too. It came out at 176cm 🤷🏻‍♀️


That is strange. 176 cm would be 5 ft - 9 in, and Estonia never made that length up through 2009, when the numbers stop in Pierce. Could it be 2010 or newer?

One thing that's different about the Estonia company is that they use a separate serial number system for each length.

For 1960 through 2009 (and probably beyond), they made two models, 9 ft, and 6 ft - 3 in.

In 1996 and 1997 only there was also a 5 ft - 4 in. From 1998 onward, that was changed to 5 ft - 6 in.


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: JohnSprung] #2775362
10/25/18 08:22 AM
10/25/18 08:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 269
Norway
S
Skjalg Offline
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Skjalg  Offline
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Norway
Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by Millyz
This is quite bizarre. Could I have measured incorrectly? But the technician measured it too. It came out at 176cm 🤷🏻‍♀️


That is strange. 176 cm would be 5 ft - 9 in, and Estonia never made that length up through 2009, when the numbers stop in Pierce. Could it be 2010 or newer?


Here is a 2010 model Estonia 190 I tried. It was definetly not 176cm. I saw the same model later in a shop next to Shigeru Kawai SK3, and if anything it was slightly longer.

Here is the specification of the current 190:
http://www.estoniapiano.com/190.html

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Skjalg; 10/25/18 08:26 AM.
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2775495
10/25/18 06:20 PM
10/25/18 06:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,262
Reseda, California
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JohnSprung Offline
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Reseda, California

190 would be 6 ft 3 in, which has been in their product line continuously since 1960.


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: Millyz] #2776412
10/29/18 10:30 AM
10/29/18 10:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 15
egypt
H
hassan Offline OP
Junior Member
hassan  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 15
egypt
Sorry I have been away for a while ,
If you are in Egypt why don t you call me on 00201001572843
to exchange ideas.
I also think the kawai is better.My piano is better than both of them so I am not buying any one of the 2 , yet I would advise you to buy the kawai.

Re: 190 Estonia of 1991 [Re: hassan] #2777194
11/01/18 05:29 AM
11/01/18 05:29 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 8
M
Millyz Offline
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@hassan, I sent you a private message...apologies, my private messages settings were off.


Used to play...a bit rusty...now I'm back...

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