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Galaxy II - Vienna Grand (Bosendorfer 290) #2773713
10/18/18 06:38 PM
10/18/18 06:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 165
Moscow, Russia
M
Max_Forte Offline OP
Full Member
Max_Forte  Offline OP
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M

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 165
Moscow, Russia
Hi everyone.
Dear owners of "Galaxy Pianos", is the dynamic range of "Vienna Grand" same as "Vintage D"?

Both of them have
Quote
13 modeled velocity zones
But the download size is different: "Vienna Grand" - 4,73 GB VS "Vintage D" - 5,16 GB. Also, keep in mind that Bosendorfer has nine keys more...
The reason I ask is that Galaxy II Steinway has only 10 layers and it lacks playability in comparison with "Vintage D". I have both "Galaxy II Steinway" and "Vintage D" and "Vintage D" has much wider dynamics.

If "Vienna Grand" has the same dynamic range I think I'll buy it. Can you recommend it to purchase? What are your impressions of it?


Casio PX-350
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
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Re: Galaxy II - Vienna Grand (Bosendorfer 290) [Re: Max_Forte] #2773723
10/18/18 07:18 PM
10/18/18 07:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,399
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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MacMacMac  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,399
Raleigh, North Carolina
Turn up the volume control.
Raise it 10 dB and you have 10 dB more dynamic range.
Simple.

Re: Galaxy II - Vienna Grand (Bosendorfer 290) [Re: Max_Forte] #2773762
10/18/18 11:06 PM
10/18/18 11:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Bangkok, Thailand
siros Offline
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siros  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Bangkok, Thailand
Comparing to Vintage D, I feel that timbre range of Vienna Grand feels a little narrower. Is that the right word?
At both dynamic extremes, Vintage D tones are more different. That could be from more sample layers or from the nature of the sampled piano itself.

But when played in musical context, I don't feel that Vienna Grand is much less playable. It just feels more consistent tonewise. It does not go super bright when played very loudly. But it does sound very big and loud.
I bought it after Vintage D simply because I like its tone.
However, it is quite old now. There must be a lot of newer/better things. Unless you really like its sound, I don't think it's a good choice today.

Re: Galaxy II - Vienna Grand (Bosendorfer 290) [Re: Max_Forte] #2773793
10/19/18 07:09 AM
10/19/18 07:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 345
England
P
propianist Offline
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propianist  Offline
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P

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 345
England
Hi Max Forte,
I have all of them in Galaxy II collection and Vintage D. If your settings are similar on each, they both perform more or less equally for dynamic range and behaviour.
Their Bosendorfer is a bright and strident sample with quite a strong note attack.
The Vintage D is the best of them all, and is a good Steinway, but a little on the thin side - ie. it could sound more bassy and rich for me.
The original Galaxy II Steinway is a much smaller sample set (I think because it's older and they included 5.1 surround samples in the package as well) and only sampled every 2 semitones approx. so it uses pitch-shifting for almost 50% of it's notes, whereas the others are all 88 note sampled. It also has less velocity layers, and sounds too bright and zingy to be realistic IMHO. If that's what you mean by "lacks playability" maybe, but it's just not in the same league as their better libraries.

Re: MacMacMac
"Turn up the volume control.
Raise it 10 dB and you have 10 dB more dynamic range.
Simple."

This is completely wrong, and a gross misunderstanding of what dynamic range is. Turning up the volume merely gives you the same dynamic range reproduced more loudly, because all the quiet bits would be turned up as well.

Re: Galaxy II - Vienna Grand (Bosendorfer 290) [Re: propianist] #2773812
10/19/18 08:36 AM
10/19/18 08:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,715
Portugal
T
toddy Offline
3000 Post Club Member
toddy  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,715
Portugal
Originally Posted by propianist

Re: MacMacMac
"Turn up the volume control.
Raise it 10 dB and you have 10 dB more dynamic range.
Simple."

This is completely wrong, and a gross misunderstanding of what dynamic range is. Turning up the volume merely gives you the same dynamic range reproduced more loudly, because all the quiet bits would be turned up as well.


No, because, given a minimum of 127 volume levels, raising the top volume level 10db will almost certainly incentivate the player to lessen the average (and lower) velocities to produce a proper mf and p, respectively. This results in more dynamic range, and a better controlled piano technique into the bargain.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: Galaxy II - Vienna Grand (Bosendorfer 290) [Re: Max_Forte] #2773896
10/19/18 02:10 PM
10/19/18 02:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,399
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
8000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,399
Raleigh, North Carolina
Exactly. Thanks toddy.

Re: Galaxy II - Vienna Grand (Bosendorfer 290) [Re: Max_Forte] #2774115
10/20/18 04:07 PM
10/20/18 04:07 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 242
Denmark
Q
QuasiUnaFantasia Offline
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QuasiUnaFantasia  Offline
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Q

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 242
Denmark
I should probably stay out of this, but I'm not clever enough to do that smile

Technically MacMacMac is right, because the difference in sound pressure between the highest level and the lowest (which is silence) would increase. But practically propianist is right, because the music dynamics is not measured between the loudest passages and complete silence, but between the loudest passages and the quietest passages with music being played, and that difference would not be boosted (as measured in dB).

toddys suggestion is of course compelling, but it could be argued that not only would the player lower the average sound level, but also the maximum (in order to not get hearing damage), in which case the dynamics might not be changed at all. (The practical quantization would, in that case, be lowered due to a smaller number of actually used midi levels).


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28, Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2)
Re: Galaxy II - Vienna Grand (Bosendorfer 290) [Re: toddy] #2774179
10/20/18 10:33 PM
10/20/18 10:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 345
England
P
propianist Offline
Full Member
propianist  Offline
Full Member
P

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 345
England
Originally Posted by toddy

No, because, given a minimum of 127 volume levels, raising the top volume level 10db will almost certainly incentivate the player to lessen the average (and lower) velocities to produce a proper mf and p, respectively. This results in more dynamic range, and a better controlled piano technique into the bargain.


Still wrong.

Firstly, there is no such thing as "the top volume level" because the volume control (which MacMacMac suggested turning up) is a global control and applies to everything in the entire output signal equally. It does not selectively apply to only the "top half" or "uppermost" range of dynamics, if that's what you mean - to do that you would need an upwards expander for dynamics modification (much like a compressor with ratio less that 1:1) with it's threshold set in the middle of the dynamic range. Simply changing "volume" does not affect "dynamic range". They are different commodities by definition.

If you mean the "max volume" has increased, yes, but the dynamic range difference in dB between softest note instrument can produce, and loudest note instrument can produce, has not widened.

Secondly, even if the pianist accommodates their playing technique somehow to compensate for an instrument's poor / limited dynamic range, there has been no actual change in the dynamic range that instrument offers. It still has the same dynamic range it had before.
Turning the volume up and playing more softly most definitely does NOT produce a "better controlled piano technique" either, because you'd then be squeezing (compressing) all your playing expression down into a smaller range of MIDI velocities! By definition, the greatest control over piano expression happens when the performer can fully exploit the whole available MIDI velocity range of 127 values. If you're deliberately trying to short-change yourself by boosting the volume and only playing through about half the MIDI velocity range (maybe 64 values), you are LOSING not increasing your audible dynamic range from the instrument, and also losing finer degrees of variation and expression available throughout your playing. You gain no advantage, in fact you're making fine controlled performance nuances more difficult for yourself.

If you want to increase dynamic range, it's easy... because almost all modern software piano VSTs offer a dedicated control for it. You can obviously adjust the volume as well, along with dynamic range, to get a comfortable listening experience, but you shouldn't go adjusting volume knob only hoping to get more (or less) dynamic range, any more than you should go adjusting dynamic range knob to boost overall volume of everything louder or quieter. That's not the right way to use those controls.

In Galaxy II Bosendorfer / Steinway / Bluthner Baby Grand / Vintage D there is a dedicated knob in the Anatomy section called "Dynamic" (and called "Dynamic Range" in Grandeur / Maverick / Gentleman which also use the same underlying engine) In all cases the factory default centre is probably the best sounding position anyway, as Uli Baronowsky has done a very good job of mapping the samples authentically.

In Synthogy Ivory, there is also a dedicated knob called Dynamic Range. I'd say approx 42dB to 45dB is the sweetspot for most Ivory pianos.

In Garritan CFX the "Dynamic Range" knob is under the Advanced tab - and approx 70% sounds about nice on headphones.

UVI Ravenscroft has "Dynamics" knob defaulting to 96.0% but increasing to 100% seems to benefit most things.

VSL Vienna Synchron CFX has the "Dynamic" knob prominent on the main screen and 100% default is already pretty good.

Pianoteq has "Dynamics" slider just above the pedals, going all the way from 1dB to 100dB which extends far beyond what is realistic for a piano.

In many cases piano software VSTs are actually capable of rendering far more than enough dB difference between the softest pppp note to the loudest ffff note to even exceed the real life instrument dynamics if you push their settings to extremes, so should be easily capable of getting within the sweetspot of realism if you perhaps need to tweak the factory default setting just a little when you're happy with your reproduction volume, and velocity curves, etc. Put your speakers and computer setup next to a real wooden piano and compare side by side.

Re: Galaxy II - Vienna Grand (Bosendorfer 290) [Re: Max_Forte] #2774320
10/21/18 12:54 PM
10/21/18 12:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,288
Varna
N
newer player Offline
1000 Post Club Member
newer player  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
N

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,288
Varna
A few real world factors muddy the waters, I think.

For example, at low "volumes", our hearing is not so good, especially for lower frequencies.

Also, loudspeakers & headphones don't do a great job reproducing piano sounds; I would guess that they do a worse job at very low or very high "volumes". Of course, with less driver excursion. . .

Regardless, I would think playing with speakers or headphones at a "volume" that seems to approximate that of an acoustic piano would be optimal.


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