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Not really what I meant.

At every stage of development, knowledge(both technical and musical) is of critical importance. The correct technical understanding is probably most critical in the beginning of learning so one develops the correct building blocks for later technical challenges. It's true that sheer repetition may help somewhat but will be much slower and reach a plateau quickly if one does not know what one is doing.

Musical understanding is equally important at every level. The more advanced one gets the more advanced the discussion of musical points will be. What's appropriate to tell an advanced student would often be inappropriate to tell a much less advanced one.

Yes, this was not an interpretive matter but just an error this very advanced student made.

There is no one right way to how a piece should sound but that does not mean every way is right or equally valid. I think that is a basic misconception some posters make.

What do "this" and 'it" and "the comparison" refer to?

Good one ...

This ... Refers to your recent posts that are more about technical issues and not musical understanding. Yet it was Musical understanding (the former in your initial post) that made for being great vs mediocre. Nonetheles your later post clarified and covered this too.

Had i used quotes would have been helpful i admit. i am using a phone and not great with it yet. Need more practice.

And suppose someone told you that your way is not "valid". Exactly how much money are you willing to pay to make it valid?

And such is the business of music. Playing music, intrinsically, has no hierarchy. Hierarchy is entirely manufactured by those who have the money, such as 17th royalty and those who desire to be better than someone else. Totally, manufactured by humans of such propensity. As me, I'm content with learning.

Conservatories don't manufacturer it. People manufacture through deciding they will listen to one performer vs. another. This is probably the reason that formal training has never mattered for some genres like hiphop or jazz. Because in those genre, listeners don't prefer performances of performers with formal training over those without - in fact, for those genres, the opposite might be true.

Classical music is a genre where there is a clear preference by listeners for those performers of higher skill. Fewer people would go to concerts to listen to you play than Lang Lang. When I go to a concert, I don't consider what degrees the performer has. I consider if I feel they are good and if their music moves me. But as I mentioned above, there appears to be a positive correlation between classical performers that move me with their performances and those that have formal training. I know no classical performers that I like that have had no formal training. It's likely self-selecting. You can rail against the tyranny of a formal training regime, but this doesn't change the fact that people who appreciate classical music prefer more highly skilled performers, all things being equal (e.g., expressiveness, etc.).

Ultimately, conservatories exist because classical music listeners (audience) demand performers with greater skills.

That would depend on how much money I had and how badly I wanted to improve. But I don't have the slightest doubt that some people have far more knowledge about the musical and technical aspects of playing the piano than I do and that my playing would get better if I took lessons from them and had the motivation to practice.

Let me know what happens when the ATM runs dry. But before you quit, just remember you don't need money to learn. Your desires are you own, manufactured by your own mind, and have nothing to do with what is required to learn piano.

Apparently, even more in demand are short dresses, high heels, and high fashion. The elite are a fickled bunch, and their tastes change. Be prepared to change with them. They are not tolerant of those that are not in keeping with their highfalutin tastes.

As for me, high school orchestras are plenty as are grade school bands. I'm just not as demanding as some.

Some, like me, post a link in their signature. Most of the recordings on my channel were recorded for the online recitals here and you can look for recordings by user name in the ABF Recital Index.

Not everyone chooses to participate in the recitals and that is just fine. But for those who want to verify the performances of a given ABF poster, Piano World is actually a pretty good resource.

You can also check the Member Recordings channels for both Classical and Non-classical forums.

Richrf, I agree you do not need money to learn. It is harder to learn on your own than have an expert teach you. For instance, golf, swimming, tennis, karate, etc.... I few music as a hobby for relaxation and enjoyment, even though as I mentioned lessons can be stressful, but is is a good stress. I feel I am putting money towards improving myself, mind, spirit, and health. I have taken care (professionally) of people who had self-destructive behaviors such as gambling, drugs, and alcoholism. I am sure this well would run dry fast, cocaine is really expensive. People work and it is important to reward yourself with something you value, and in fact it may be something other than music lessons.

What is interesting, is that as one practices the skill of learning and self-teaching, learning skills on one's own becomes easier. Learning by oneself is a skill just like any other skill. I've taught myself many things and continue to get better at it, as I practice it. The fundamental skills needed for self-study are: 1) relaxation 2) awareness 3) sensitivity 4) flexibility 5) creative imagination.

However, if one wishes to pay money for information, then that is an individual choice. What I object to is the myth that it requires thousands of dollars to learn and enjoy any hobby of any sort. It's simply an artificial, manufactured barrier that keeps people from enjoying their creative being.

I think you have manufactured that myth/strawman yourself. I certainly have never heard (or read) any statement on this forum or elsewhere that one must pay to enjoy a hobby. I think though for some people, myself included, part of the enjoyment of a hobby is to achieve a certain standard in one's hobby. Sometimes the easiest way to do that - the path of least resistance, if you will - is to pay someone to teach you. And as you say, if money is not a limiting factor, then why not? I have a friend whose hobby is sailing and certainly he has spent > 50x on his hobby than I have on mine so far, if one is comparing hobbies

Well, I saw posts referencing golf, karate, flying, swimming etc... What I think Richrf said it that spending money is NOT necessary - but if one WANTS to spend money on a teacher, that is their choice. That is the way I have interpreted his comments, right or wrong

Why not? Because of all the downsides of having a teacher, and there are many, particularly because money is involved. As a said in my opening comments in this thread, having a teacher is not a panacea, it is just different. It guarantees nothing. What happens, happens. For example, most people I know who had a teacher ended up quitting. Just one possible outcome.


As far as me manufacturing myths, then I'll wait patiently until the next question someone asks, is answered with the totally empty reply of "Get a teacher". At $60/hour per week, that is $3000 to learn a few cute tunes.

Precisely, on target. :-)

I have a feeling we are talking about different objectives here.

If one wants to just enjoy learning music by oneself, they can go at it whichever way they want. There is nothing wrong with that.

But for someone who is serious about getting to play really well in a reasonable time period, lessons with good teacher(s) are almost a must.
I could try to figure out how to play one of Beethoven Sonatas technically and musically well by myself, but it might take longer than my lifespan to accomplish that.
Learning from someone with skills and experience is the solution for these people.

I used to be in "I can do all this by myself" too. Lessons from a good teacher changed that perspective.

Hi Siros.
I know it’s not likely, but I really feel the need to ask, so I hope you don’t mind the question: any chance you are taking lessons from Paul Barton?? I can imagine he would be a wonderful private teacher

Hi.
No, I haven't. Though it would be nice if I could. I really enjoy his videos.
I think he lives in a different city far away from me.

And watch those retired golfers. Many have been playing their whole lives and they still haven't the slightest idea of the motion that produces a "good" golf shot.


You cannot "watch" a good golfer play and then "learn" by watching. There is a subtle concept that is at work within the swing motion that cannot be observed .... it can be produced, of course, but only if you know about it. You cannot "see" it.

It is very possible that playing piano contains 1 or more of those "unobservable" concepts that produce results found in high quality playing. I would think it to be true.