Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
127 registered members (almo82, Alex C, ando, all18piano, aireque, *Marion*, Amedeus, anotherscott, 29 invisible), 1,591 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772265
10/13/18 11:21 PM
10/13/18 11:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 93
Chernobieff Piano Offline
Full Member
Chernobieff Piano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 93
I was never sold on the Bosendorfer "story" . It's so carefully worded as to not say anything factual that could be scientifically questioned. Even the violin comparison is questionable. The top plate and back plate are tuned to non-competing frequencies. The back plate is maple not spruce. So maybe the Spruce in the vienna construction method is holding back not enhancing sound production. Perhaps a backframe made out of ash or maple would be superior, not inferior.
The complications that would arise from beam frequency being in phase with certain notes. Do they tune beams to create a mismatch?
-chris


I don't play the piano often, but when I do, I prefer my Mammoth VCG.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772370
10/14/18 11:58 AM
10/14/18 11:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,870
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,870
Seattle, WA USA
The "newer" Bosendorfer scales such as the 6'7" and 5'8" have verticaly laminated rims. That indicates to me the designers knew that these types of rims were structurally more desirable, and that with the older scales the company didn't want to invest the money to reformulate them for a laminated rim design. The sales people then took a negative and claimed it was a positive.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2772507
10/14/18 09:11 PM
10/14/18 09:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 698
Wisconsin, USA
L
Lakeviewsteve Online content
500 Post Club Member
Lakeviewsteve  Online Content
500 Post Club Member
L

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 698
Wisconsin, USA
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
The "newer" Bosendorfer scales such as the 6'7" and 5'8" have verticaly laminated rims. That indicates to me the designers knew that these types of rims were structurally more desirable, and that with the older scales the company didn't want to invest the money to reformulate them for a laminated rim design. The sales people then took a negative and claimed it was a positive.


Ed, Wrong! You should go to Vienna for a tour of Bosendorfer before you tell people how Bosendorfer does things. What do you suppose is under those "vertically laminated rims" you are talking about? I've been on tours there 4 times as part of the master classes I have taken and have seen them produce rims just as they describe on their web site.

Steve

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 10/14/18 09:14 PM.

Bösendorfer 170
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Chernobieff Piano] #2772510
10/14/18 09:22 PM
10/14/18 09:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 698
Wisconsin, USA
L
Lakeviewsteve Online content
500 Post Club Member
Lakeviewsteve  Online Content
500 Post Club Member
L

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 698
Wisconsin, USA
Chernbieff, really? Don't buy a Bösendorfer and you can go on believing your own story as much as you like. What story do you tell people when they want to buy a piano from you're company?


Bösendorfer 170
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Lakeviewsteve] #2772547
10/14/18 11:16 PM
10/14/18 11:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,870
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,870
Seattle, WA USA
Lakeviewsteve,
I can see from looking at the pianos that the rims are continuous laminations and that there are no corner joints in the case of the smaller Bose grands. The big scales have angular corners showing a pieced up rim.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772550
10/14/18 11:43 PM
10/14/18 11:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 93
Chernobieff Piano Offline
Full Member
Chernobieff Piano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 93
Lakeviewstiff,

Maybe you could offer a counter to the points i made, instead of a personal attack?
-chris


I don't play the piano often, but when I do, I prefer my Mammoth VCG.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772580
10/15/18 01:24 AM
10/15/18 01:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,603
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,603
Oakland
Bösendorfer rims were kerf-bent. I do not know whether they still are. I have seen a kerf-bent rim on a Knabe.


Semipro Tech
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: BDB] #2772584
10/15/18 02:08 AM
10/15/18 02:08 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 94
Foster City, CA, US
K
Ken Iisaka Offline
Full Member
Ken Iisaka  Offline
Full Member
K

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 94
Foster City, CA, US
Originally Posted by BDB
Bösendorfer rims were kerf-bent. I do not know whether they still are. I have seen a kerf-bent rim on a Knabe.

Only the outer rim is kerf-bent, a horrendously labour intensive process the inner rim onto which the soundboard is attached is made of segments of spruce, and more recently in the VC series, reinforced with some hardwood for greater rigidity. I was informed of the last bit of information from someone at Yamaha.

Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772699
10/15/18 11:55 AM
10/15/18 11:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,472
Reseda, California
J
JohnSprung Online content
Unobtanium Subscriber
JohnSprung  Online Content
Unobtanium Subscriber
J

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,472
Reseda, California

What do they mean by "vertically laminated"? Do they mean that the grain runs vertically rather than horizontally? That wouldn't be nearly as strong, but then again we're not supposed to play bumper cars with grand pianos....


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Chernobieff Piano] #2772751
10/15/18 03:48 PM
10/15/18 03:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 698
Wisconsin, USA
L
Lakeviewsteve Online content
500 Post Club Member
Lakeviewsteve  Online Content
500 Post Club Member
L

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 698
Wisconsin, USA

Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
Lakeviewstiff,

Maybe you could offer a counter to the points i made, instead of a personal attack?
-chris


No, that's ok. Personal attack? You don't know what you are talking about. End of Story.


Bösendorfer 170
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772892
10/15/18 11:22 PM
10/15/18 11:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 93
Chernobieff Piano Offline
Full Member
Chernobieff Piano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 93
I watched a video recently that compared 3 pianos side by side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2GYYV8JSqM

The Steinway D sounded like the bigger piano to me when the artist played the Liszt.
Bosendorfer claims:
1. " the whole body - not exclusively the soundboard - supports sound formation."
2." When a note is played, the integrated spruce components become acoustically active, forming a complete resonating body that allows the whole instrument to project your play

Not hearing it in the side by side.

Researching on the internet for facts to support their claims, and all there is, is stories like:

"Ignaz Bösendorfer combined his music education from the Academy of Fine Arts with his knowledge of carpentry to allow for a louder sound while keeping the mellow tone quality characteristic of Viennese-made pianos."
How does being a carpenter and studying music allow for a louder sound?

What i'm asking is- How and when was it proven that the spruce components are a tone enhancement? And not leakage? Did they try other species? Pine, fir, what was the results of those?
Listening to the side by side, the Steinway had more in reserve it seems to me.
My understanding in the study of musical instrument acoustics, is that the soundboard moves more air than the music wire alone. How do those big, thick, cross braced spruce beams move more air to enhance the sound?

-chris


I don't play the piano often, but when I do, I prefer my Mammoth VCG.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2773062
10/16/18 02:52 PM
10/16/18 02:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,870
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,870
Seattle, WA USA
What I mean by vertical laminations is the glue line between the wood is vertical to the horizon. The grain orientation of the wood, I don't know.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2773101
10/16/18 04:49 PM
10/16/18 04:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,472
Reseda, California
J
JohnSprung Online content
Unobtanium Subscriber
JohnSprung  Online Content
Unobtanium Subscriber
J

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,472
Reseda, California
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
What I mean by vertical laminations is the glue line between the wood is vertical to the horizon.


Wouldn't that be true for pretty much every laminated piano rim?


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: JohnSprung] #2773174
10/16/18 08:00 PM
10/16/18 08:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,870
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,870
Seattle, WA USA
Yes, That is my point. The "newer" Bose scales have continuous laminated rims and the older ones have kerfed and joined cases. This indicates that the designers of the newer scales thought continuous rims were better but the company never got around to "modernizing" the older scales.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2773438
Yesterday at 08:28 PM
Yesterday at 08:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 93
Chernobieff Piano Offline
Full Member
Chernobieff Piano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 93
It amazes me how only every once in a while, a really good sounding piano comes across my path. This time its a Baldwin L. I was looking at the rib structure today and noticed (it has 12 ribs) that ribs 8 and 9 are unusually large compared to the rest. In a Steinway for example these ribs tend to be smaller than anything sequential would show (One of my pet theories as to why there is a dead octave). Thinking this has to be a mistake, I look at a Baldwin R, and it has the same large ribs at #8 and 9. So now i'm thinking it's on purpose. Clearly someone at Baldwin was thinking along the same lines as me and bolstered those two ribs (after studying a Steinway?).
Overall the 12 ribs had a low profile structure (79%) that helps board movement, again first confirmed by ear. It's not hard to hear the difference. Low profile boards have more depth and sound bigger and have more clarity. The opposite is true for high profile rib structures. Interesting that Baldwins are a 79% profile and most Steinways are an 83% profile. Must be the competitive edge.
-chris


I don't play the piano often, but when I do, I prefer my Mammoth VCG.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Digital dynamics
by Michael P Walsh. 10/18/18 05:53 AM
Kawai GX2 vs. Shigeru SK2
by almo82. 10/18/18 04:27 AM
3 Pedals at once
by almo82. 10/18/18 04:03 AM
8Dio pianos
by Grazilerimba. 10/18/18 03:11 AM
my new Kawai CE7N
by Kevin_kawai. 10/18/18 02:27 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics187,875
Posts2,753,694
Members91,282
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2