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Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772265
10/13/18 10:21 PM
10/13/18 10:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 191
Chernobieff Piano Online content
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I was never sold on the Bosendorfer "story" . It's so carefully worded as to not say anything factual that could be scientifically questioned. Even the violin comparison is questionable. The top plate and back plate are tuned to non-competing frequencies. The back plate is maple not spruce. So maybe the Spruce in the vienna construction method is holding back not enhancing sound production. Perhaps a backframe made out of ash or maple would be superior, not inferior.
The complications that would arise from beam frequency being in phase with certain notes. Do they tune beams to create a mismatch?
-chris


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
High Quality Sitka Spruce and Pine
Golden Ratio Panels
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Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772370
10/14/18 10:58 AM
10/14/18 10:58 AM
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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The "newer" Bosendorfer scales such as the 6'7" and 5'8" have verticaly laminated rims. That indicates to me the designers knew that these types of rims were structurally more desirable, and that with the older scales the company didn't want to invest the money to reformulate them for a laminated rim design. The sales people then took a negative and claimed it was a positive.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2772507
10/14/18 08:11 PM
10/14/18 08:11 PM
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Wisconsin, USA
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Lakeviewsteve Offline
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
The "newer" Bosendorfer scales such as the 6'7" and 5'8" have verticaly laminated rims. That indicates to me the designers knew that these types of rims were structurally more desirable, and that with the older scales the company didn't want to invest the money to reformulate them for a laminated rim design. The sales people then took a negative and claimed it was a positive.


Ed, Wrong! You should go to Vienna for a tour of Bosendorfer before you tell people how Bosendorfer does things. What do you suppose is under those "vertically laminated rims" you are talking about? I've been on tours there 4 times as part of the master classes I have taken and have seen them produce rims just as they describe on their web site.

Steve

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 10/14/18 08:14 PM.

Bösendorfer 170
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Chernobieff Piano] #2772510
10/14/18 08:22 PM
10/14/18 08:22 PM
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Wisconsin, USA
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Chernbieff, really? Don't buy a Bösendorfer and you can go on believing your own story as much as you like. What story do you tell people when they want to buy a piano from you're company?


Bösendorfer 170
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Lakeviewsteve] #2772547
10/14/18 10:16 PM
10/14/18 10:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Lakeviewsteve,
I can see from looking at the pianos that the rims are continuous laminations and that there are no corner joints in the case of the smaller Bose grands. The big scales have angular corners showing a pieced up rim.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772550
10/14/18 10:43 PM
10/14/18 10:43 PM
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Posts: 191
Chernobieff Piano Online content
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Lakeviewstiff,

Maybe you could offer a counter to the points i made, instead of a personal attack?
-chris


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
High Quality Sitka Spruce and Pine
Golden Ratio Panels
Engineered Low Profile Rib Scales
Big Bass, Rich Singing Tone, Amazing Acoustic Projection.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772580
10/15/18 12:24 AM
10/15/18 12:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
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BDB Offline
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Bösendorfer rims were kerf-bent. I do not know whether they still are. I have seen a kerf-bent rim on a Knabe.


Semipro Tech
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: BDB] #2772584
10/15/18 01:08 AM
10/15/18 01:08 AM
Joined: May 2011
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Foster City, CA, US
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Ken Iisaka Offline
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Originally Posted by BDB
Bösendorfer rims were kerf-bent. I do not know whether they still are. I have seen a kerf-bent rim on a Knabe.

Only the outer rim is kerf-bent, a horrendously labour intensive process the inner rim onto which the soundboard is attached is made of segments of spruce, and more recently in the VC series, reinforced with some hardwood for greater rigidity. I was informed of the last bit of information from someone at Yamaha.

Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772699
10/15/18 10:55 AM
10/15/18 10:55 AM
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JohnSprung Offline
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What do they mean by "vertically laminated"? Do they mean that the grain runs vertically rather than horizontally? That wouldn't be nearly as strong, but then again we're not supposed to play bumper cars with grand pianos....


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Chernobieff Piano] #2772751
10/15/18 02:48 PM
10/15/18 02:48 PM
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Wisconsin, USA
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Lakeviewsteve Offline
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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
Lakeviewstiff,

Maybe you could offer a counter to the points i made, instead of a personal attack?
-chris


No, that's ok. Personal attack? You don't know what you are talking about. End of Story.


Bösendorfer 170
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2772892
10/15/18 10:22 PM
10/15/18 10:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 191
Chernobieff Piano Online content
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I watched a video recently that compared 3 pianos side by side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2GYYV8JSqM

The Steinway D sounded like the bigger piano to me when the artist played the Liszt.
Bosendorfer claims:
1. " the whole body - not exclusively the soundboard - supports sound formation."
2." When a note is played, the integrated spruce components become acoustically active, forming a complete resonating body that allows the whole instrument to project your play

Not hearing it in the side by side.

Researching on the internet for facts to support their claims, and all there is, is stories like:

"Ignaz Bösendorfer combined his music education from the Academy of Fine Arts with his knowledge of carpentry to allow for a louder sound while keeping the mellow tone quality characteristic of Viennese-made pianos."
How does being a carpenter and studying music allow for a louder sound?

What i'm asking is- How and when was it proven that the spruce components are a tone enhancement? And not leakage? Did they try other species? Pine, fir, what was the results of those?
Listening to the side by side, the Steinway had more in reserve it seems to me.
My understanding in the study of musical instrument acoustics, is that the soundboard moves more air than the music wire alone. How do those big, thick, cross braced spruce beams move more air to enhance the sound?

-chris


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
High Quality Sitka Spruce and Pine
Golden Ratio Panels
Engineered Low Profile Rib Scales
Big Bass, Rich Singing Tone, Amazing Acoustic Projection.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2773062
10/16/18 01:52 PM
10/16/18 01:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,933
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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What I mean by vertical laminations is the glue line between the wood is vertical to the horizon. The grain orientation of the wood, I don't know.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2773101
10/16/18 03:49 PM
10/16/18 03:49 PM
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Reseda, California
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JohnSprung Offline
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
What I mean by vertical laminations is the glue line between the wood is vertical to the horizon.


Wouldn't that be true for pretty much every laminated piano rim?


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: JohnSprung] #2773174
10/16/18 07:00 PM
10/16/18 07:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Yes, That is my point. The "newer" Bose scales have continuous laminated rims and the older ones have kerfed and joined cases. This indicates that the designers of the newer scales thought continuous rims were better but the company never got around to "modernizing" the older scales.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2773438
10/17/18 07:28 PM
10/17/18 07:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 191
Chernobieff Piano Online content
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It amazes me how only every once in a while, a really good sounding piano comes across my path. This time its a Baldwin L. I was looking at the rib structure today and noticed (it has 12 ribs) that ribs 8 and 9 are unusually large compared to the rest. In a Steinway for example these ribs tend to be smaller than anything sequential would show (One of my pet theories as to why there is a dead octave). Thinking this has to be a mistake, I look at a Baldwin R, and it has the same large ribs at #8 and 9. So now i'm thinking it's on purpose. Clearly someone at Baldwin was thinking along the same lines as me and bolstered those two ribs (after studying a Steinway?).
Overall the 12 ribs had a low profile structure (79%) that helps board movement, again first confirmed by ear. It's not hard to hear the difference. Low profile boards have more depth and sound bigger and have more clarity. The opposite is true for high profile rib structures. Interesting that Baldwins are a 79% profile and most Steinways are an 83% profile. Must be the competitive edge.
-chris


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
High Quality Sitka Spruce and Pine
Golden Ratio Panels
Engineered Low Profile Rib Scales
Big Bass, Rich Singing Tone, Amazing Acoustic Projection.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2774597
10/22/18 12:19 PM
10/22/18 12:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 191
Chernobieff Piano Online content
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I have been studying the "engineering" of RC & S soundboards. It has fascinated me that CC boards have a low profile rib structure and RCS boards always have a High rib structure. It cannot really be explained away by just saying stiffness in the panel makes up the difference. Plus, I have personally seen CC soundboards that are a hundred years old, and still have a crown.
So why the extra tall ribs in a RCS board? I think it's because of a misunderstanding of the Stress and Strain Chart.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...stress-and-strain-chart.html#Post2774588
When the belief by an RCS builder is that the ribs are beams, then overbuilding is ok. Because sturdiness is what you want, not movement. So the beam formulas are designed with a large safety margin.
What does that mean?
In the Stress and Strain chart, there are basically two sections. The elastic section and the plastic section. When designing ribs as beams, the stress is on the low end of the chart, for added strength and little movement. But traditional soundboard making always put the stress near the proportional limit. To maximize strength and movement. As long as the design is not in the plastic section, then the soundboard will last.
The problem that gets confused and therefore overcompensated for when rebuilding, is when a CC board is examined because it failed, it is assumed to be the whole method of CC making.
This is not true!!
When I have examined many CC boards that did fail (from a design perspective), they failed because of the lack of a safety factor that put them in the plastic section. Basically, the engineering was faulty. That's different than saying the CC method is bad.
CC boards that survive time well (again from a design perspective) the rib structure was correct with a narrow safety margin.
That's why i say that ribs are springs, not beams. Because unlike beam theory, it's desirable to have a soundboard that moves the air.
It's because of the the overbuilt nature of RC&S boards don't have the depth that CC boards have.
-chris


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
High Quality Sitka Spruce and Pine
Golden Ratio Panels
Engineered Low Profile Rib Scales
Big Bass, Rich Singing Tone, Amazing Acoustic Projection.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2775035
10/23/18 09:04 PM
10/23/18 09:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
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Chernobieff Piano Online content
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I just recently took apart a soundboard (for study purposes) of a pianomaker (Jacob Gross) whose soundboard craftsmanship and design I admire. The picture is one of a cross-section of a soundboard rib and panel. The soundboard was a 100 years old, and out of an upright. It had great tone and nice crown. I wrote on the picture the height dimensions. This was the largest rib and was 42" long and was 1.01" wide. All the ribs on the soundboard progressively got smaller.

It was in great condition a 100 years later.

This brings me to another mistake i think RC&S rebuilders are making. By treating the ribs as beams, they isolate the elements (ribs), but as can be clearly seen in the photo, the soundboard is of a composite construction. By treating the ribs as an isolated unit, the forces that the engineering is designed will be overcompensated for.
-chris
http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2775029.html#Post2775029

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 10/23/18 09:06 PM.

Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
High Quality Sitka Spruce and Pine
Golden Ratio Panels
Engineered Low Profile Rib Scales
Big Bass, Rich Singing Tone, Amazing Acoustic Projection.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Chernobieff Piano] #2775057
10/23/18 11:44 PM
10/23/18 11:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Chris:

I have been preaching against the "ribs as beams" model since the 1980's. Glad you have joined the club.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2775062
10/24/18 12:25 AM
10/24/18 12:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 191
Chernobieff Piano Online content
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Thanks Ed,
BTW, you've been on fire lately. Some great comments.
-chris


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
High Quality Sitka Spruce and Pine
Golden Ratio Panels
Engineered Low Profile Rib Scales
Big Bass, Rich Singing Tone, Amazing Acoustic Projection.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2775126
10/24/18 07:59 AM
10/24/18 07:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 468
Chesterfield. MA
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Craig Hair Offline
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Your post says that the picture is Jacob Gross, but the picture says Stieff. I'm confused. Stieff baby grands are great, BTW.


Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Chesterfield, MA
Conservative Piano Restoration
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Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Hermerik] #2775141
10/24/18 08:43 AM
10/24/18 08:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2018
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Chernobieff Piano Online content
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Hi Craig,
Jacob Gross was the expert behind the Stieff piano designs. Charles M. Stieff was the financier and namesake. Gross married Stieff's daughter. Later, when the Stieff and Gross children grew up, together would run the company for a few generations more.
-chris


Maker of Fine Piano Soundboards
High Quality Sitka Spruce and Pine
Golden Ratio Panels
Engineered Low Profile Rib Scales
Big Bass, Rich Singing Tone, Amazing Acoustic Projection.

www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Soundboard shape and size [Re: Lakeviewsteve] #2775730
10/26/18 05:10 PM
10/26/18 05:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 516
Southwest
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Steve,
Thank you for reminding me. About 7 years ago, while piano shopping, I did get a chance to play a Bosendorfer. I fell in love. The owner of the store came up and explained about the rim and all the spruce components actively producing the sound. The sound was gorgeous and I could feel the piano’s voice “vibrations” in my fingers, hands, wrists, torso and feet.

It was a wonderful experience, but sadly way above my pay grade. I have never played or felt a more responsive piano than that Bosendorfer.


J & J
Yahama C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
Pianos - the reason God created trees!
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