Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
83 registered members (Beowulf, Bill McKaig,RPT, Bambers, akc42, bluebillytwo, Bett, almo82, barbaram, 17 invisible), 1,239 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Play Bach at 440 Hz or 415Hz ? #2771827
10/12/18 12:35 PM
10/12/18 12:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 21
K
Khue Offline OP
Full Member
Khue  Offline OP
Full Member
K

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 21
Hello.

We all know Bach was from the baroque period. In his time, music was composed not in 440 Hz, but in baroque pitch (415 Hz (!?)). 415 Hz is lower a semitone compare to 440 Hz.

What is your opinion about the pitch we should use to play Bach musics? I still confuse about "well-tempered". J. S. Bach means we can modulate his music in all keys? Or he means all keys have own color to compose?

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Play Bach at 440 Hz or 415Hz ? [Re: Khue] #2771831
10/12/18 12:46 PM
10/12/18 12:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,852
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
3000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,852
Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted by Khue
Hello.

We all know Bach was from the baroque period. In his time, music was composed not in 440 Hz, but in baroque pitch (415 Hz (!?)). 415 Hz is lower a semitone compare to 440 Hz.

What is your opinion about the pitch we should use to play Bach musics? I still confuse about "well-tempered". J. S. Bach means we can modulate his music in all keys? Or he means all keys have own color to compose?


Bach did not compose his music at 415Hz. He composed music. The reference pitch Bach had available varied wildly according to location and varied from 392Hz to about 465Hz. Bach actually transposed the organ part of his Magnificat to C from D so that a particular organ he was using (@ ~465Hz) would match the primarily french made wind instruments which were much lower and could be tuned at ~415Hz.



Last edited by prout; 10/12/18 12:49 PM.
Re: Play Bach at 440 Hz or 415Hz ? [Re: Khue] #2771841
10/12/18 01:07 PM
10/12/18 01:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,852
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
3000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,852
Southwestern Ontario
Well Temperaments have a variety of key colour. Bach’s Well Tempered Clavier compositions sound wonderful in a mild WT, but most people today fear WTs, and they likely base their fear on ignorance, that is to say, they actually have never heard a WT, and that is fine if you only play very late 19th century music. I find early to middle 19th C music, Chopin, for example, in any key, sounds lovely in a WT.

Re: Play Bach at 440 Hz or 415Hz ? [Re: Khue] #2771845
10/12/18 01:23 PM
10/12/18 01:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,468
Reseda, California
J
JohnSprung Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
JohnSprung  Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
J

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,468
Reseda, California

Here's a reference:

http://robertspianoservice.com/2017/11/invention-tuning-fork/

.... that says the tuning fork was invented in 1711, and used 423.5 Hz for A.


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
Re: Play Bach at 440 Hz or 415Hz ? [Re: Khue] #2771855
10/12/18 02:30 PM
10/12/18 02:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,903
B
bennevis Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,903
Originally Posted by Khue
Hello.

We all know Bach was from the baroque period. In his time, music was composed not in 440 Hz, but in baroque pitch (415 Hz (!?)). 415 Hz is lower a semitone compare to 440 Hz.

What is your opinion about the pitch we should use to play Bach musics?

If you own a few HIP CDs, you'll soon notice that they don't use a standardized pitch. (BTW, YT videos are unreliable in pitch).

And even today, if you go to central European countries, you'll find that they favor higher pitches for more brilliant sound. The Wiener and Berliner Philharmoniker (orchestras) tune to something like A=448. Considering that Verdi composed for singers singing at A=332, no wonder they have to screech in their opera houses...... wink

(N.B. HIP = historically informed performance)


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Play Bach at 440 Hz or 415Hz ? [Re: Khue] #2771883
10/12/18 04:11 PM
10/12/18 04:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 17
M
Michael P Walsh Online content
Junior Member
Michael P Walsh  Online Content
Junior Member
M

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 17
You can gather the information from original wind instruments and organs. Pitch was all over the map. Play it in whatever pitch you deem to sound nice. As someone once remarked 'there's nothing magical about 440 Hz'. Same can be said of 415, 390 or whatever.

Last edited by Michael P Walsh; 10/12/18 04:12 PM.
Re: Play Bach at 440 Hz or 415Hz ? [Re: bennevis] #2771942
10/12/18 07:08 PM
10/12/18 07:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,468
Reseda, California
J
JohnSprung Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
JohnSprung  Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
J

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,468
Reseda, California
Originally Posted by bennevis
. Considering that Verdi composed for singers singing at A=332, no wonder they have to screech in their opera houses...... wink


Just checking, is that a typo? Should it be A=432? 332 would be down about a fourth, it would be E by todays standards.


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: Play Bach at 440 Hz or 415Hz ? [Re: JohnSprung] #2771946
10/12/18 07:25 PM
10/12/18 07:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,903
B
bennevis Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,903
Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by bennevis
. Considering that Verdi composed for singers singing at A=332, no wonder they have to screech in their opera houses...... wink


Just checking, is that a typo? Should it be A=432? 332 would be down about a fourth, it would be E by todays standards.



Er....yes. It should be 432.

My eyes told me what I expected to see when I "checked" before posting cry.

The same way our ears tell us what we expect to hear........


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Moderated by  BB Player 

(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Digital dynamics
by Michael P Walsh. 10/18/18 05:53 AM
Kawai GX2 vs. Shigeru SK2
by almo82. 10/18/18 04:27 AM
3 Pedals at once
by almo82. 10/18/18 04:03 AM
8Dio pianos
by Grazilerimba. 10/18/18 03:11 AM
my new Kawai CE7N
by Kevin_kawai. 10/18/18 02:27 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics187,872
Posts2,753,619
Members91,276
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2