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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771811
10/12/18 10:27 AM
10/12/18 10:27 AM
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Another YouTube Vid:



I'm not too sure about the sound, yet. I'm not being blown away.

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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771815
10/12/18 10:51 AM
10/12/18 10:51 AM
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Wow, I must say I'm very impressed by the Audi.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: R111] #2771824
10/12/18 11:29 AM
10/12/18 11:29 AM
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Colin Miles Offline OP
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Originally Posted by R111
Another YouTube Vid:



I'm not too sure about the sound, yet. I'm not being blown away.


He may not have played THAT particular piano before but he sure knew all the marketing spiel. And a few seconds in he was extolling the new better action for trills! But maybe he was right.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771830
10/12/18 11:44 AM
10/12/18 11:44 AM
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I wonder about escapement. Have they really changed in to PHA-50. It was just a pice of rubber before(which worked ok), I wonder how it works now.

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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771835
10/12/18 11:51 AM
10/12/18 11:51 AM
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The escapement works exactly as on the PHA-50: it’s literally a gimmick.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771838
10/12/18 11:57 AM
10/12/18 11:57 AM
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He said it works differently laugh

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771842
10/12/18 12:08 PM
10/12/18 12:08 PM
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He’s full of it cry

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771868
10/12/18 01:59 PM
10/12/18 01:59 PM
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I'll definitely check these out when they hit the stores here. I think the longer key pivot is an extremely positive development, as that was really a problem with the older actions, but I'm very picky.

I have a bit of a concern about the feel as they haven't increased the action ratio, but then again the Kawai Grand Feel has a "correct" action ratio and something feels really wrong about it to me as well.

I'm looking to get rid of my grand piano and replace with an Avantgrand N1, but I'll give this thing a chance to win me over and save a few thousand bucks.

Last edited by trigalg693; 10/12/18 02:00 PM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771931
10/12/18 05:24 PM
10/12/18 05:24 PM
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Where’s Mac?

I’m sure he has tons of praises for Roland’s new-and-improved-cutting-edge technology:

PureAcoustic Piano Modelling.
PureAcoustic Ambience technology.
PureSemiAcoustic escapement.

P.S.

Just having a little fun. I’m sure we’ll have another 10 pages of serious analysis pertaining to pivot lengths, modelling sucks, modelling is great, there’s that metallic thing that still bothers me, why knobs? But I like knobs, if only on the side; I prefer knobs center-stage, no touch screen? Still, I’ll probably buy the freaking thing anyway!

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: trigalg693] #2771934
10/12/18 05:36 PM
10/12/18 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by trigalg693
I'll definitely check these out when they hit the stores here. I think the longer key pivot is an extremely positive development, as that was really a problem with the older actions, but I'm very picky.

I have a bit of a concern about the feel as they haven't increased the action ratio, but then again the Kawai Grand Feel has a "correct" action ratio and something feels really wrong about it to me as well.

I'm looking to get rid of my grand piano and replace with an Avantgrand N1, but I'll give this thing a chance to win me over and save a few thousand bucks.


An AvantGrand N1 has the action adapted from a grand, it can be regulated if needed and will last you a long time. The limitation is the old sound engine. But that limitation is gone if you use it as a VST controller. And if Yamaha finally decides to launch a N1X and N2X, maybe the prices of N1 will get lower. Now, if you pick a new LX, you will get a new sound engine and cool features but also a plastic folded action that will degrade and cannot be regulated. So, those thousand bucks are the price to pay for a DP that really feels like an acoustic...

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771937
10/12/18 05:54 PM
10/12/18 05:54 PM
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If they do a stage version with the new action I'll have to take a serious look at it. I think the pivot length of the FP90 (PHA50) is perfectly fine, as it makes some music playable that is very uncomfortable on my Kawai MP10. My acoustic grand has long keysticks, but even on a concert grand, the difference in leverage is very apparent near the fallboard. I'm not sure how much difference this new action would make to me, but I do love the Roland playing experience. I mostly use it to control my VST pianos.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: arc7urus] #2772023
10/13/18 01:41 AM
10/13/18 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Now, if you pick a new LX, you will get a new sound engine and cool features but also a plastic folded action that will degrade and cannot be regulated. So, those thousand bucks are the price to pay for a DP that really feels like an acoustic...

That is not true. It actually good plastic does NOT degrade over time like wood does. The only problem is grease which might move over time but it migh've been solved somehow in new models, we don't know yet.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2772052
10/13/18 05:29 AM
10/13/18 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Now, if you pick a new LX, you will get a new sound engine and cool features but also a plastic folded action that will degrade and cannot be regulated. So, those thousand bucks are the price to pay for a DP that really feels like an acoustic...

That is not true. It actually good plastic does NOT degrade over time like wood does. The only problem is grease which might move over time but it migh've been solved somehow in new models, we don't know yet.


Not quite sure about the logic of that wooden actions are better than plastic or composites. Rather than trying to recreate the feel of an acoustic grand, I'd rather manufacturers design their actions for control, utility and ability to play advanced pieces or fast repeating notes efficiently. Being able to play using less force for equal or better control would be a massive plus. w
In the 21st century, we should be asking: how can we improve action design to help us be able to do things 20th century actions can't.

I have a carbon fibre 🏸 racket. Never once thought: wood is where it is at.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2772080
10/13/18 08:04 AM
10/13/18 08:04 AM
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Hello to All,

I do not want to sound negative or unfair to this new range of Roland LX700 series digital pianos. But I am not impressed at all.

Having been an observer of the digital pianos market for the past two years, if I had been at the place of Roland or Yamaha or any other manufacturers, I would have drawn the following conclusions for the next range of pianos:
1) Thanks to the Casio GP Grand Hybrid pianos, it is now inevitable that new digital pianos will have to adopt a similar keyboard than the ones on these Casio GP Grand Hybrid pianos meaning they will have to have the same hammer movement than on a grand piano keyboard.
And this type of Grand Hybrid keyboard will have to move to any digital pianos and even to digital piano ensemble.

2) Thanks to Kawai, the display should now have to be similar to the new display adopted by Kawai that is for instance on the CA78.

Roland had an opportunity to learn from the competition but instead they keep their heads in the sand and keep doing their own things as if nothing had happened among his competitors and that is a big mistake.

Yamaha's next CLP range will have to learn from the competition; otherwise, they will pay a price for thinking that their name is sufficient to attract buyers.

Buyers who do the minimum of research they need to do before buying a new digital piano will want these two features stated above on their new digital piano.

Now, for the LX708 and the LX706, Roland has called his new action the Hybrid Grand Keyboard!! What a deception it is!!
Let us be very clear. A Grand Hybrid action is a keyboard action that uses a similar hammer movement than found on an acoustic grand piano. That is as simple as that and that is it!
Therefore, the new "Hybrid Grand Keyboard" is NOT a Grand Hybrid piano action but just an improvement over their previous action.
Having said that, the touch of Grand Hybrid piano action on the Casio GP pianos will always be much better than this Roland new Hybrid Grand Keyboard!! And by a significant margin!!

You want to have something much better than the new Roland range of the LX700 series?
Buy any of the Casio GP digital pianos to get their Grand Hybrid piano action and buy Pianoteq latest version and that is it!! That is as simple as that!! And on top of that, you also have sampled piano sounds, no matter your assessment of their quality.

When will we ever see true competition in this market of digital pianos?!!! That is what I could ask when I see the new range of Roland LX700 series pianos!!

Just my own point of view. I am more than happy to have people disagreeing with me.

Enjoy playing the piano :-)
A piano lover as I am sure you all are.


Last edited by MikePianoLover; 10/13/18 08:11 AM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2772093
10/13/18 08:52 AM
10/13/18 08:52 AM
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Colin Miles Offline OP
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MikePianoLover - I think you need to look beyond the marketing hype. The 'improvement' in the action is a minor one which MAY improve the action, but the proof of the pudding, etc.. Likewise with the pedal.

The real test for this piano will be in the sound. If this convinces enough people and with far more competitive prices, then this range will do well.

Until you have played it you won't know what it is really like.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: MikePianoLover] #2772095
10/13/18 08:57 AM
10/13/18 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
Thanks to the Casio GP Grand Hybrid pianos, it is now inevitable that new digital pianos will have to adopt a similar keyboard than the ones on these Casio GP Grand Hybrid pianos meaning they will have to have the same hammer movement than on a grand piano keyboard.


No, it's not.

It's enough that they feel similar to an acoustic piano in every possible way. It doesn't really matter how that's achieved.

And Casio's "hybrid" action just looks like an acoustic grand action, but it really isn't any more an acoustic action than Kawai's actions with wooden keysticks. It just looks like it because of the "clever" design. It's a very simplified approximation. If you pull out the action from a grand piano and put the Casio action inside, the grand won't work.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: clothearednincompo] #2772097
10/13/18 09:13 AM
10/13/18 09:13 AM
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Colin Miles Offline OP
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
Thanks to the Casio GP Grand Hybrid pianos, it is now inevitable that new digital pianos will have to adopt a similar keyboard than the ones on these Casio GP Grand Hybrid pianos meaning they will have to have the same hammer movement than on a grand piano keyboard.


No, it's not.

It's enough that they feel similar to an acoustic piano in every possible way. It doesn't really matter how that's achieved.

And Casio's "hybrid" action just looks like an acoustic grand action, but it really isn't any more an acoustic action than Kawai's actions with wooden keysticks. It just looks like it because of the "clever" design. It's a very simplified approximation. If you pull out the action from a grand piano and put the Casio action inside, the grand won't work.


Agreed - didn't someone do a comparison of the number of parts in a Casio GP Grand Hybrid action and a real grand?


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: clothearednincompo] #2772098
10/13/18 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
Thanks to the Casio GP Grand Hybrid pianos, it is now inevitable that new digital pianos will have to adopt a similar keyboard than the ones on these Casio GP Grand Hybrid pianos meaning they will have to have the same hammer movement than on a grand piano keyboard.


No, it's not.

It's enough that they feel similar to an acoustic piano in every possible way. It doesn't really matter how that's achieved.

And Casio's "hybrid" action just looks like an acoustic grand action, but it really isn't any more an acoustic action than Kawai's actions with wooden keysticks. It just looks like it because of the "clever" design. It's a very simplified approximation. If you pull out the action from a grand piano and put the Casio action inside, the grand won't work.



A very clever design indeed. The feel of the Casio GH is so good because of the way the hammer moves, replicating an acoustic instrument. It does not have to do the same thing, just provide the feel.



Casio GP-400
Schimmel SP-182T
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2772101
10/13/18 09:25 AM
10/13/18 09:25 AM
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I think an action should stand or fall on its own merits.

That said,

1) Casio's GP series action feels like an odd comparison to draw, as it is no closer to an acoustic grand action than any other unfolded DP action, such as Kawai's Grand Feel II. That they call it a "hybrid" piano is in the same league of deception (for the sticklers) or marketing (for the rest) as Roland's use of the word, or Kawai's for their non-NV10 pianos.

2) Roland has called the PHA-50 a hybrid action before due to its use of both wood and composite material in the keys. A sketchy distinction at best, but sure, at least it is a hybrid of sorts, when you compare all-plastic and all-wood action variants. NWX and GrandTouch are arguably even more "hybrid" in that sense since the wood also has structural function rather than just being cosmetic.

In the end, I don't think Roland is expecting anyone to believe they are using the components of a real grand piano in their action, it's just a name they're using to be descriptive.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2772113
10/13/18 10:22 AM
10/13/18 10:22 AM
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From year to year digital pianos are grow up to be the same size as acoustic without crucial purpose compare to cabinet digital pianos for home. I partially understand that in Avant grand and Novus series (real piano action) but this new Roland series seems to me a complete waste compare to for example HP605. Why would I choose that and not hp605 or lx7 instead ? We will see when someone compare longer action with his little brother and tell us if that difference knock him out from the chair. I doubt it.

Last edited by slobajudge; 10/13/18 10:27 AM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: arc7urus] #2772115
10/13/18 10:31 AM
10/13/18 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus

An AvantGrand N1 has the action adapted from a grand, it can be regulated if needed and will last you a long time. The limitation is the old sound engine. But that limitation is gone if you use it as a VST controller. And if Yamaha finally decides to launch a N1X and N2X, maybe the prices of N1 will get lower. Now, if you pick a new LX, you will get a new sound engine and cool features but also a plastic folded action that will degrade and cannot be regulated. So, those thousand bucks are the price to pay for a DP that really feels like an acoustic...


The plastic action won't degrade, I had a secondhand FP-7F that I practiced on for over 4000 hours over 6 years and it had no signs of degradation to speak of. The Avantgrand is obviously more serviceable but its parts will most likely wear faster not slower. It's obviously a better instrument, that's why it's more money, but the LX's simplicity is attractive, because I can skip the VST and external speakers (maybe, if I think the LX speakers are good enough).

If you check my previous posts, I've done very extensive comparisons of digital pianos (and acoustics for that matter). The Casio GP series gets the inertia feel spot on, but has a poor key stop and pivot distance. The Avantgrand pivot distance is actually also suboptimal, but I can live with it. Kawai GFI/II gets the inertia feel completely wrong somehow and has really horrible key tops. The Novus NV10 looks great but is a lot of money. They're all compromised.

Last edited by trigalg693; 10/13/18 10:38 AM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: slobajudge] #2772120
10/13/18 10:50 AM
10/13/18 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
From year to year digital pianos are grow up to be the same size as acoustic without crucial purpose compare to cabinet digital pianos for home. I partially understand that in Avant grand and Novus series (real piano action) but this new Roland series seems to me a complete waste compare to for example HP605. Why would I choose that and not hp605 or lx7 instead ? We will see when someone compare longer action with his little brother and tell us if that difference knock him out from the chair. I doubt it.

Even without strings and resonance board bigger cabinet means better/deeper sound. In conjunction with good speaker setup inside it can give much much better sound projection and most people that tried bigger Roland pianos confirm that LX-17 has considerably better sound/sound projection than LX-7. If it is worth the money that's up to you, for me it might be.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2772122
10/13/18 11:16 AM
10/13/18 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Even without strings and resonance board bigger cabinet means better/deeper sound. In conjunction with good speaker setup inside it can give much much better sound projection and most people that tried bigger Roland pianos confirm that LX-17 has considerably better sound/sound projection than LX-7. If it is worth the money that's up to you, for me it might be.
.
I agree, LX17 sounds better than lx7 but for me I cannot justify difference in money for something I can bypass with external monitors with much less money and to enjoy in much better results. Even more if I use some VST piano plugin.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2772127
10/13/18 11:38 AM
10/13/18 11:38 AM
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But can you really get good monitors for much less than ~800 euros?

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2772128
10/13/18 11:46 AM
10/13/18 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
But can you really get good monitors for much less than ~800 euros?

Probably not in your store smile , fortunately there is lots of options out there

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: MikePianoLover] #2772142
10/13/18 12:29 PM
10/13/18 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover

Just my own point of view. I am more than happy to have people disagreeing with me.



Hi Mike,

I think that this is the point: you perhaps represent a segment of the total market Roland aren't aiming directly at. Kawai already aim very well at this segment, as do Yamaha. Roland differentiate themselves from Kawai by their designs to cater for buyers who have different priorities.

IMO, Roland go out of their way to market to gigging musicians who are not specifically classical in bent. Remember how they marketed the original V. Piano: they hired George Duke, Brian Cubertson, Israel Haughton, Manor Haynes, and Paul Mirkovich to play demos for the original YouTube promotional. None of these artists are Classical only pianists. They represent the professional end of the Roland market segment.

On the other nose, the V-piano Grand was marketed more for the classical musicians. Maybe Roland will bring out a competitive hybrid when they replace the Roland V piano grand---IMO, their flagship class digital only updated once in a blue moon, the last time being prior to Kawai entering the hybrid market with the Novus. .

Now, Kawai, Yamaha and Casio have Hybrid digital: Casio only has this via collaboration. I don't think Roland is aiming at that market in particular because they don't make acoustic pianos.

IMO, the user interface on the new Roland LX series is aimed squarely at the type of musician who would change settings mid performance. If this isn't for you BUT other aspects of the Roland are appealing to you, it would seem that choosing pianos isn't a lot different from choosing which party to vote for.

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: MikePianoLover] #2772147
10/13/18 01:06 PM
10/13/18 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MikePianoLover
Let us be very clear. A Grand Hybrid action is a keyboard action that uses a similar hammer movement than found on an acoustic grand piano. That is as simple as that and that is it!

I am more than happy to have people disagreeing with me.


It's a good job you are happy to be disagreed with!

You are wrong. A hybrid is a piano with digital sound generation but the action from an acoustic; that's what makes them hybrids.

The only true hybrids are Yamaha Avant Grand and Kawai Novus. The Casio most definitely does NOT qualify!


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2772168
10/13/18 02:25 PM
10/13/18 02:25 PM
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mcoll Offline
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Me + Roland = <3 ha
But I'm sure the usual suspects on the forum already knew that. I'm sure glad I didn't buy an HP601 a little while back, as a small upgrade for the action and being an easy way to deal with a change of homes.
Well, as others have noted, the keys are really long, as long as on the Novus as I'm not mistaken (my estimate on the photo gave me 26cm for the white keys). I already liked the feeling of the PHA50, recently tested again alongside the GF-II and the action in the CLP685. The latter I disliked, the GF-II is nice in some ways but the sponginess when hitting the bottom felt a little weird - something I'd probably get used to.
As said before, between the GFII and the PHA50, I'd have a hard time choosing and I'd have to test them connected to my preferred VST to decide. I like both in different ways. The new Roland action will likely offset that, since I've been a "pivot advocate" for a long time here smile

While I'm happy to see Roland has improved their action in this way (subject to testing the first chance I get), this also leads to further segmentation of their line-up, so it's possible that their top action won't be found in mid-range home pianos, which would be unfortunate. Unless the sound engine will be on par with some of the good VSTs (Pianoteq included, as it's my current go-to instrument), I don't intend to use the piano other than with VSTs, so I don't care about the internal sounds and amplification. And on that note, I much prefer the usual "console" piano form-factor, rather than the mini-upright, like the LX7 or the LX706 - I currently have the display and the monitors on top of the piano and it's a very comfortable setup. And an all-in-one keyboard on the music rest. The new models wouldn't allow for this setup. Maybe just the display if I get something like the Dell P2418HT touchscreen and I set it to hand over the edge of the top, or maybe I should just disconnect the stand off the screen and place it on the music rest if it's slim enough. That involves giving up the keyboard and rely solely on the touchscreen.

A piano controller with the new action would be fantastic. Even one with the PHA50 would be quite interesting and I'd pick that over the VPC1 anytime. That being said, I don't think that will happen, and with no need for portability, an HP601 will do just as well and have integrated stand, pedals and key cover..

Something that I don't particularly like, but maybe it will prove to be OK, is the music rest protruding over the keys. I realize it's quite high up, maybe it's OK, only testing will tell. It's hard to see from the pictures how much it protrudes.
About touching the buttons while playing, I'm under the impression that they're moved back a little compared to the previous HP/LX series. It did happen, quite rarely though, that I inadvertently pressed buttons while playing. Another thing I noticed (again, hard to judge from the photos), is that the buttons-hidden position of the fallboard seems to be further back than the one in my HP504, which is a welcomed change, since it was too forward and I touched it when using that position. Hopefully this is true and not just an illusion.

All in all, I feel this is a notable step-up and I'm eager to actually try them in person and see how they stack up against the competition.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: trigalg693] #2772169
10/13/18 02:27 PM
10/13/18 02:27 PM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by trigalg693
The plastic action won't degrade, I had a secondhand FP-7F that I practiced on for over 4000 hours over 6 years and it had no signs of degradation to speak of. The Avantgrand is obviously more serviceable but its parts will most likely wear faster not slower. It's obviously a better instrument, that's why it's more money, but the LX's simplicity is attractive, because I can skip the VST and external speakers (maybe, if I think the LX speakers are good enough).

DP actions are known for developing sensor issues (due to mechanical wear of the sensor strips or contamination) and mechanical issues due to friction and wear of hinges and other elements (such as PTFE strips). Lubrication and contamination related to the lubricants is another common problem. This is what I call action degradation. Acoustic actions also suffer from wear and tear but they are designed to be serviced. DP actions are not designed to be serviced but to last just a few years before they are discarded along with the rest of the system.

Originally Posted by trigalg693

If you check my previous posts, I've done very extensive comparisons of digital pianos (and acoustics for that matter). The Casio GP series gets the inertia feel spot on, but has a poor key stop and pivot distance. The Avantgrand pivot distance is actually also suboptimal, but I can live with it. Kawai GFI/II gets the inertia feel completely wrong somehow and has really horrible key tops. The Novus NV10 looks great but is a lot of money. They're all compromised.

Do you know how different is the pivot point and the inertia from the AG and Novus in comparison with the acoustic actions they are derived from? Are these limitations of the original acoustic action or a consequence of the adaptation to the hybrid version?

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: arc7urus] #2772191
10/13/18 03:22 PM
10/13/18 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus

Do you know how different is the pivot point and the inertia from the AG and Novus in comparison with the acoustic actions they are derived from? Are these limitations of the original acoustic action or a consequence of the adaptation to the hybrid version?


Pivot points vary on actions depending on the keysticks (for different sizes and specs of piano). Both the Novus and the AG have been measured (i think AG 9.5in, NV10 10.2in). Dunno if you will get inertia or dynamic weight measurements unless you talk to a tech.

But the attention taken, participate by Yamaha which pioneered the hybrid action, is amazingly impressive. Both the AG and Novus have standard acoustic actions, wiych only a tiny metal sleeve attached to the hammer shank which has cutouts (shutters) through which contact-less optical sensors measures velocity. Yamaha also has a small plastic/glass smoked plate on the bottom of the keys for another contractor optical sensor.

Both strike a padded rail at the shank rather than real strings with hammer felts. That's about it.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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