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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Grandman] #2771702
10/12/18 02:14 AM
10/12/18 02:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,137
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Online content
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Doug M.  Online Content
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Originally Posted by Grandman
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Wow, what a progress, right? I have always thought V-Piano sounded like cr*p but I've long forgotten about that. Comparing them side by side, V-Piano is simply awful, it's a bad joke of a piano sound! So there's an immense progress made with Roland modeled piano. I applaud them!


Thanks for the comparison! Indeed, the differences are striking.

Roland should really think about start developing and selling virtual modelled instruments, like PianoTeq as been doing. This would allow these DPs to be updated with new instruments and would also create an additional revenue stream for Roland. This is one of the big advantages of the modelling approach over the sample-based approach...


I don't see this ever happening because it doesn't make much business sense for Roland to create a product beyond the expected planned obsolescence. They are not interested in selling software updates, but more interested in selling you a new DP. Thus, the interest by many on this forum even though we may already own an existing DP. wink


The issue with this is that Pianoteq makes it work by releasing lots of models --- thus differentiating itself and providing quite a barrier to other modeled piano VST makes to gain traction in the market. For Roland to compete, because they don't have that many models to offer, they'd have to provide a competitive product (much higher quality piano) at a lower cost per unit. A good example of how hard this is: Microsoft have tried for quite a while to compete with Google on the browser front and the search engine front---despite having lots of money to throw at both, Microsoft have failed to eat into those markets. They also failed at mobile phones. Also, if Roland release a modeled VST piano, why would anybody buy the Roland piano? They'd buy a VPC1. So Roland would also have to develop a piano controller first. Another thing---it would force Roland to develop equal or better actions than Kawai and Yamaha in order to differentiate their hardware pianos; whereas, at the moment, piano modelling is giving them a fair chunk of differentiation on its own, even if some people don't like the sound.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771703
10/12/18 02:20 AM
10/12/18 02:20 AM
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Nordomus Offline
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I'd still buy normal digital piano even if they would release VST one. I want to get complete package with great speaker setup, sound projection, keyboard, interface etc. This is different market for different people.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771705
10/12/18 02:24 AM
10/12/18 02:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,371
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Nobody quite knows which piano Roland base their modelling techniques on, but many suspect a Steinway D or similar.
Pianoteq 'D' doesn't sound dissimilar with it's metallic overtones, which are hard to get rid of.

I never use it.

Last edited by peterws; 10/12/18 02:25 AM.

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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771706
10/12/18 02:32 AM
10/12/18 02:32 AM
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Nordomus Offline
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It's definitely closest to Steinwey

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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771709
10/12/18 02:44 AM
10/12/18 02:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,725
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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BTW Roland used to shy away from recreating any particular real piano with their modeling and Jay confirmed Roland do this on purpose, combining best features of various pianos thus coming up with an entirely new piano.

I guess they realized it’s not gonna work well with customers who expect real piano brand names so this time they have directly referred to Hamburg and New York, i.e. Steinway.

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/12/18 02:46 AM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Yamaha NU1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771710
10/12/18 02:47 AM
10/12/18 02:47 AM
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Nordomus Offline
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Yeah it's not 1 to 1 of course. And they do not aim it to be 1 to 1 and I think that is good, it has it's own characteristics.

Last edited by Nordomus; 10/12/18 02:47 AM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2771712
10/12/18 03:35 AM
10/12/18 03:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,137
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Online content
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
I'd still buy normal digital piano even if they would release VST one. I want to get complete package with great speaker setup, sound projection, keyboard, interface etc. This is different market for different people.


Right now, I believe there are 4 different market segments:
1) Those who afford the cabinet pianos with the unique speaker setup etc
2) Those who buy stage pianos for gigging
3) Those who buy portable pianos for home or gigging
4) Those who buy piano controllers as a cheaper way to get the best action with VST.

1) is not a marketplace Roland want customers to purchase Roland VST piano, as then users can buy the Yamaha or Kawai product and just add the Roland VST piano.

2) Again, now I can buy the MP7 or Nord piano 4 or the Yamaha CP and just get Roland VST piano for the modeled sound.

3) Why would you buy an FP90 if you could get a Kawai ES8 or P515 or VPC1 and Roland VST? Some people would prefer action or sounds on Yamaha, Kawai, Nord etc., and take those products plus the Roland VST piano---Roland would lose hardware business it gained just because users liked the Roland modeled piano sound.

4) Of those who buy VST plus controller pianos, how many of them would buy into Roland VST piano? Given that the Pianoteq VST market is made up of modern Grand pianos, vintage pianos, e-pianos, percussion instruments, harpsichords etc, would Roland get much out of offering 4 modeled pianos? Given that in this market, customers who have Pianoteq are used to the sound and will have brand loyalty!

Roland would have to be sure that their hardware pianos out-compete Yamaha and Kawai in areas that currently Roland are not out-competing Kawai and Yamaha in---i.e., to ensure that they don't lose customers who like the Roland modeled piano sound.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771720
10/12/18 05:18 AM
10/12/18 05:18 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,725
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
2000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,725
Sofia, Bulgaria
Something to have in mind is Roland's modeled approach might not be easily portable to a regular PC. Maybe they have dedicated hardware that is much more capable than a PC for that particular task.

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/12/18 05:18 AM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Yamaha NU1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: CyberGene] #2771721
10/12/18 05:21 AM
10/12/18 05:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 639
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Nordomus Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Something to have in mind is Roland's modeled approach might not be easily portable to a regular PC. Maybe they have dedicated hardware that is much more capable than a PC for that particular task.

Very good point, it might not be that easy as some people imagine.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2771726
10/12/18 05:35 AM
10/12/18 05:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 606
South Wales
C
Colin Miles Offline OP
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Colin Miles  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2017
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South Wales
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Something to have in mind is Roland's modeled approach might not be easily portable to a regular PC. Maybe they have dedicated hardware that is much more capable than a PC for that particular task.

Very good point, it might not be that easy as some people imagine.

Indeed - with all the Windows guff going on in the background!


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771811
10/12/18 10:27 AM
10/12/18 10:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 157
R
R111 Offline
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R111  Offline
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Posts: 157
Another YouTube Vid:



I'm not too sure about the sound, yet. I'm not being blown away.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771815
10/12/18 10:51 AM
10/12/18 10:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,725
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
2000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,725
Sofia, Bulgaria
Wow, I must say I'm very impressed by the Audi.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Yamaha NU1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: R111] #2771824
10/12/18 11:29 AM
10/12/18 11:29 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 606
South Wales
C
Colin Miles Offline OP
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Colin Miles  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 606
South Wales
Originally Posted by R111
Another YouTube Vid:



I'm not too sure about the sound, yet. I'm not being blown away.


He may not have played THAT particular piano before but he sure knew all the marketing spiel. And a few seconds in he was extolling the new better action for trills! But maybe he was right.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771830
10/12/18 11:44 AM
10/12/18 11:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 639
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Nordomus Offline
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Nordomus  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 639
I wonder about escapement. Have they really changed in to PHA-50. It was just a pice of rubber before(which worked ok), I wonder how it works now.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771835
10/12/18 11:51 AM
10/12/18 11:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,258
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Pete14 Offline
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Pete14  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,258
The escapement works exactly as on the PHA-50: it’s literally a gimmick.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771838
10/12/18 11:57 AM
10/12/18 11:57 AM
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Posts: 639
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Nordomus Offline
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Nordomus  Offline
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Posts: 639
He said it works differently laugh

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771842
10/12/18 12:08 PM
10/12/18 12:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,258
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Pete14 Offline
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Pete14  Offline
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Posts: 1,258
He’s full of it cry

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771868
10/12/18 01:59 PM
10/12/18 01:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,092
New York
T
trigalg693 Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,092
New York
I'll definitely check these out when they hit the stores here. I think the longer key pivot is an extremely positive development, as that was really a problem with the older actions, but I'm very picky.

I have a bit of a concern about the feel as they haven't increased the action ratio, but then again the Kawai Grand Feel has a "correct" action ratio and something feels really wrong about it to me as well.

I'm looking to get rid of my grand piano and replace with an Avantgrand N1, but I'll give this thing a chance to win me over and save a few thousand bucks.

Last edited by trigalg693; 10/12/18 02:00 PM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771931
10/12/18 05:24 PM
10/12/18 05:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,258
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Pete14 Offline
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,258
Where’s Mac?

I’m sure he has tons of praises for Roland’s new-and-improved-cutting-edge technology:

PureAcoustic Piano Modelling.
PureAcoustic Ambience technology.
PureSemiAcoustic escapement.

P.S.

Just having a little fun. I’m sure we’ll have another 10 pages of serious analysis pertaining to pivot lengths, modelling sucks, modelling is great, there’s that metallic thing that still bothers me, why knobs? But I like knobs, if only on the side; I prefer knobs center-stage, no touch screen? Still, I’ll probably buy the freaking thing anyway!

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: trigalg693] #2771934
10/12/18 05:36 PM
10/12/18 05:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 864
Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Europe
Originally Posted by trigalg693
I'll definitely check these out when they hit the stores here. I think the longer key pivot is an extremely positive development, as that was really a problem with the older actions, but I'm very picky.

I have a bit of a concern about the feel as they haven't increased the action ratio, but then again the Kawai Grand Feel has a "correct" action ratio and something feels really wrong about it to me as well.

I'm looking to get rid of my grand piano and replace with an Avantgrand N1, but I'll give this thing a chance to win me over and save a few thousand bucks.


An AvantGrand N1 has the action adapted from a grand, it can be regulated if needed and will last you a long time. The limitation is the old sound engine. But that limitation is gone if you use it as a VST controller. And if Yamaha finally decides to launch a N1X and N2X, maybe the prices of N1 will get lower. Now, if you pick a new LX, you will get a new sound engine and cool features but also a plastic folded action that will degrade and cannot be regulated. So, those thousand bucks are the price to pay for a DP that really feels like an acoustic...

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