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Buying advice (max. €2000) #2771777
10/12/18 09:35 AM
10/12/18 09:35 AM
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Germany
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Markuska Online content OP
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Hi everyone,

actually I am noone who likes to just shout out all of his thoughts and then ask for help, but after extensive research, I came to the conclusion that it is just impossible to know everything about the digital piano market, and that help from this forum would be really helpfull.

This is a really long post, so here is a TL:DR: Option
I want a DP (no portable) that has good action, good speaker power and a nice sound (subjective). My budget is carved in stone at the max of €2000.
The piano should be capable of recording songs, and if the apps are usable on Android that would be prefered,

I know that there is no other option than to go into the store and play a lot. But since this forum is full of experienced people, maybe someone has thoughts about my thoughts or stuff that I should consider?
Questions that I have would include information about new models (should I wait for the new Roland series? Is there anything else coming), or if it is common in the DP-Market that you find "Christmas-Sales" or if the prices are more or less stable troughout the year?

Any opininion is really welcome smile



Backstory: I accidentaly (had no idea back then) bought an Yamaha-PSR 433 Stagekeyboard some years ago, because I wanted to learn playing the piano (obviously). Since app. 2 years now I play quite regularily, write songs, learn theory and all this stuff. Its quite safte to say, that it is my primary hobby. Of course a 66keys Keyboard with no weighted keys, starts being not enough after some time.
This is even more true, because I want to take lessons now, and want to practice on something "real". We all want real pianos, but we have other people around us and are not rich - so a DP it is.#

The road so far ((c) Supernatural): after my first research I was quite impressed by the YDP-163 from Yamaha. I was born in Austria, so a BösendorferSound also sounded really nice.
At this time I had set my budget around €1000. But then I thought, ok, it is my primary hobby and if you see it from month to month, its cheaper than a lot of other hobbies.
So one thing led to another, but for my own protection I now said that my ABSOLUTE limit is €2000 (incl. shipping and maybe a bench). This will be the price I will be offering the vendor of course, and I am pretty sure, if some DP says €2100 most vendors will take that, instead of loosing a sale (i hate negotiating, but im willing to do so).

Since my budget is quite wide (I think that around €1000 I get soething good, and the max is €2000) there are loads of pianos to choose from.

What is important to me:
The feeling of the keys
The piano sound (both Headphones and speakers). But tbh I know that this is the most subjective part. I have even heard grand pianos, where I did not LOVE the sound.
the look
the "power" of the sound. I think that a lot of DPs lack the WHAAAM!-Feeling if the speakers are not strong enough.
Easy recording options

I never thought about Apps or other sounds THAT much, but since most of the pianos on my list have a lot of them, thats cool to have.
And I am pretty sure, you can use these learning apps quite good!

The DP should also be able to be diassembled by myself, since I WILL move at least once more in the next years.



At first I also thought about using a portable DP (P515, FP90, ES8) which I am sure are great, but tbh: since the day I started playing more I always missed the feeling of playing the piano on something real-looking.
I do understand that there is some effort from the manufacturers with imitating that with stands, but none of them gives me a feeling like a CLP eg. (ES8 has the best style her imo)
So that leaves us with:

Roland
HP 601 1679
HP 603 €1890
HP605 seen at around €2100

Yamaha
YDP163 €1000
CLP635 €1659
CLP645 €2179
CLP625 1249

Kawai
CN 27 €1169
CN37 €1398
CA 58 €2099
CA 48 €1789


What I have experienced so far (reading forums and playing in the store):

Roland
A lot of people seem to have problems with the sound of Roland. TbH I find it hard to tell if I love it or cant stand it. After listening more
I am quite sure I like it, and I like the modelling options and the keyaction (I could play an FP90). What I especially liked (and some one else in the forum mentioned that) is
that with the modelling I have the feel of a very strong connections with the piano. It seems to be able to translate emotion into sound, and tbh - I love that a lot.
I think that maybe the speakers of the FP90 were to weak to fully display the sound-capability. I will play the 603/605 again to be sure.

What I really liked about Roland was that the Apps are avaliable for Android and the 10years of guarantee. 10 years really stands out.

Yamaha
For me the power of the 163 did not seem strong enough, and that may be due to the speakers. And tbh I dont want to buy a DP which I have to upgrade with external speakers.
I could play the 635 and 645 and did not feel THAT much of a difference. But maybe I am to inexperienced for that, since I think that the NWX-action is the more future proof.
The keys were indeed quite heavy, but I have no rating for that, it IS just like that - i would not say that I like or dislike that. I also did like the sound both of CFX and Bösendorfer.

Bad thing is the app only for Ios, but at least there is something for Android possible as it seems.

Kawai
I do have to try them out more extensively. I tried some of the in the store, and I did like the sound and action. Some people (actually not just a few) seem to love the sound and the action and say its the best.
This is the main reason, I am going to try them out once more. Because actually I put them aside, since (and I dont just make that up in my head) I read TOO much posts about quality issues with the keys. As you may guess from my overthinking in regards of this topic €2000 is possible for me but it is
a lot of money. And I dont want to have problems with such an investement, and I also do not want to argue with someone about if this is wear and tear after 2years. Does anyone know if there is a possibility for written guaranttee from Kawai that this issue will be covered by the warranty? I think without that Kawai is no option for me.
I also was quite mad, that the apps (which are just a gadget, but a cool one) are only availiable for iOs.

Why am I writing this? (copied from above)
I know that there is no other option than to go into the store and play a lot. But since this forum is full of experienced people, maybe someone has thoughts about my thoughts or stuff that I should consider?
Questions that I have would include information about new models (should I wait for the new Roland series? Is there anything else coming), or if it is common in the DP-Market that you find "Christmas-Sales" or if the prices are more or less stable troughout the year?
Any opininion is really welcome smile

So this is where I stand. I plan to use the opinions on this thread and some time in the store again to trim down the list to 3 Pianos and then play them each for around an hour in the store with and without HQ-Headphones (I am allowed to do that and would take a day off). Then the negotiations starts smile



So then - sorry for the long post and all the best from Germany
Markus

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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771782
10/12/18 09:49 AM
10/12/18 09:49 AM
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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Schuberto] #2771784
10/12/18 09:54 AM
10/12/18 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Schuberto] #2771798
10/12/18 10:39 AM
10/12/18 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Schuberto


If the OP can buy this and get it shipped from Germany relatively cheaply, this is a good deal.

However Markuska, I suggest if you can, get yourself over to a music store with lots of digital pianos and try out these instruments before you rush out and buy one. Then, you will know which one you prefer!


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Doug M.] #2771799
10/12/18 10:42 AM
10/12/18 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Schuberto


If the OP can buy this and get it shipped from Germany relatively cheaply, this is a good deal.

However Markuska, I suggest if you can, get yourself over to a music store with lots of digital pianos and try out these instruments before you rush out and buy one. Then, you will know which one you prefer!


Markuska lives in Germany, so he could go test it and even bring it home by himself.
He should go and try a CA-98 in a shop and if he likes the action and the soundboard acoustics, he can then try and get a/the CA-97, imho.

Last edited by Schuberto; 10/12/18 10:44 AM.
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771806
10/12/18 11:05 AM
10/12/18 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771820
10/12/18 12:18 PM
10/12/18 12:18 PM
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Markuska, I hear you’re a noone; please do elaborate, for I’ve never met a noone in person.
Welcome to the forum.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: JoBert] #2771821
10/12/18 12:22 PM
10/12/18 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Also the warranty (at least in the UK) has a nice little clause:

(d) To defects or discolouration of any part of the instrument including keys, pedals, controls and switches caused by normal wear and tear, moisture, body salts and acids of perspiration.

So basically if Roland deem the issue as wear and tear kiss that warranty goodbye..


https://www.roland.com/uk/company/company_policy/10_year_warranty/

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: JoBert] #2771833
10/12/18 12:50 PM
10/12/18 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Are you sure about that?

There is an EU directive that states that a warranty applies to a product for a minimum of 2 years (it can be more; I think it is 5 years for some Kawai DPs). This warranty must be honoured by the trader who sold the product or by the manufacturer. This warranty is independent of the product owner as it applies to the product itself.

A different situation also defined in the directive applies to selling second hand products. If a legal trader sells a second hand product, then the same 2 year warranty rules apply (it can be reduced to 1 year in some cases, but no less). But if a private individual sells a second hand product, then the individual is not required to provide any kind of additional warranty. So, buying a second hand product that is already out of warranty from a trader will get you a whole new 1-2 year warranty. But if you but it from a private individual, you get no warranty. But, if the original product warranty is still valid, the current owner should be able to use it.

If Kawai offers an exteded 5 year warranty, then the EU directive applies for the first 2 years. After that 2 year period the conditions depend on the contract, and I expect them to be more restrictive.

Now, I am not sure how this EU directive was translated into the German Law, but, unless there is some special provision in place, the rules should be similar. Anyway I will try to find this directive in the europa.eu site and check itf there are some additional conditions.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771840
10/12/18 01:04 PM
10/12/18 01:04 PM
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Germany
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Markuska Online content OP
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@Pete14: damn theres even a blog entry dedicated to that^^
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/no-one-noone/


@arc7urus
that is the difference between warranty and "Gewährleistung" (whatever it is called in english)
Warranty is from the seller at his own terms, "Gewährleistung" is legal (2years, but in fact 6months, since after that time you have to prove that the issue was there beforehand).

@the Kawai in Hamburg. Hamburg is too far (I live in Dresden) and tbh I want something new and deliverd to my floor^^
any thoughts on the key issue?

And thanks to everyone who already answered!

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771844
10/12/18 01:18 PM
10/12/18 01:18 PM
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I must say, the noones in Narnia were very convincing, but I now see you’re not a living noone. It was simply a typo! grin

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: arc7urus] #2771858
10/12/18 02:34 PM
10/12/18 02:34 PM
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Germany
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Are you sure about that?

Yep, check Kawai's 5 year warranty terms (for Germany).

As already explained, you are mixing up (Händler-)Gewährleistung (actually "Sachmängelhaftung") und Garantie (given by the manufacturer). The latter is entirely voluntary, at whatever terms the manufacturer sets. And the two are entirely separate, i.e. the Gewährleistung is not simply the first two years of the Garantie. The manufacturer may even opt to give no Garantie at all, in which case you have only the legally mandated Gewährleistung from the vendor. The latter can be transferred to the new owner, as you say, but it isn't transferred automatically IIRC. And with the Beweislastumkehr after 6 months, I wouldn't put too much trust into it for such an item (if the piano even is younger than 2 years).

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2771905
10/12/18 04:52 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Btw.: does anyone have an idea if the release of the new Roland series will have an impact on the LX ans HP prices. Are there past experiences?

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: JoBert] #2771925
10/12/18 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Schuberto

Excellent find! And ir seems it still has warranty. So, either that one or a new ca58...

Be aware that the warranty is not transferable and is given only to the original buyer.


Are you sure about that?

Yep, check Kawai's 5 year warranty terms (for Germany).

As already explained, you are mixing up (Händler-)Gewährleistung (actually "Sachmängelhaftung") und Garantie (given by the manufacturer). The latter is entirely voluntary, at whatever terms the manufacturer sets. And the two are entirely separate, i.e. the Gewährleistung is not simply the first two years of the Garantie. The manufacturer may even opt to give no Garantie at all, in which case you have only the legally mandated Gewährleistung from the vendor. The latter can be transferred to the new owner, as you say, but it isn't transferred automatically IIRC. And with the Beweislastumkehr after 6 months, I wouldn't put too much trust into it for such an item (if the piano even is younger than 2 years).


You are right. The EU directive is about the mandatory 2-year "Gewährleistung" (legal warranty). The Garantie (commercial guarantee) is a separate concept and entirely optional. However if a Garantie (commercial guarantee) exists, then it can never replace or reduce the conditions of the Gewährleistung (legal warranty) during the first 2 years. After that period ends, the Garantie can set any conditions. But the Gewährleistung applies to the product itself and the concept of "owner" or "transference of ownership" does not apply. Therefore, the Gewährleistung is valid for a product for a period of 2 years regardless of the owner. But, as you said, it would be difficult to get a repair or refund through a Gewährleistung (legal warranty) after the first six months.

I just read the Kawai conditions for Germany and they do state that the 5-year Garantie is not transferable and that any claims must be done by the client on the original receipt. But the Gewährleistung/legal warranty conditions would still be valid for two years, regardless of the owner.

Once again, thanks for the clarification.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2774377
10/21/18 04:39 PM
10/21/18 04:39 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Because that just came to my head and I did not wanted to make a new thread:
Is it basically possible to ADD speakers to DPs (in addition to the built in ones) or do you REPLACE them as a whole?

Btw atm I will wait until around Christmas to finally decide - will tell my decision and reasons here then ofc.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779300
11/08/18 02:55 PM
11/08/18 02:55 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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Update (this is kind of my piano buying diary): "Accidentally" I had the chance to play some of the DPs yesterday. Included were CN17/27/37 a CA58, a CLP545 and the new P515, and the ES8 (and some grands that were in the store, but damn these are expensive).

The most surprising thing was that at the few times I hit the keys I did not like the P515 that much, neither the 675. TbH the P515 was attached on a shelf quite losely, so I will definately have to check that again. Regarding the 675 is just did not like the keys, but ive been hearing that actually many people prefer the 645.

The Kawai were more or less all amazing and a good reason I am not "afraid" anymore, since there seem to be many DPs in my range, that I am perfectly fine with. I did not like the Action of the CA58 though, it felt kinda spongy, but that is highly subjective.

What I LOVED was the ES8. Sound, Action, Looks - just good. I was anxious that a Stagepiano cant look good, but Kawai really did a great job with the stand (allthough its pricey as heck).

Coming up: There is another store here in Dresden, that seems to still have an "old" CA67, I am definately trying that one. Another store has the HP605, hopefully soon an LX705, CLP645 and some other stuff that I will try again (P515). And one of the stores I visited yesterday is going to get CA78 and 98 soon, but these seem to be a bit out of the budget.

TL:DR: I am still going to try something, but tbh it will be hard for the opponents to match the ES8, that one was REALLY nice.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779323
11/08/18 04:33 PM
11/08/18 04:33 PM
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I just ordered …. and returned …. he Yamaha P-515 and put another E8 (I had one previously) on order.

I liked everything about the Yamaha P-515 except the sound. There was a metallic sound at the end of tones that I could not abide.

I know the ES8 and it is just too good to give up.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779331
11/08/18 04:59 PM
11/08/18 04:59 PM
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What i would do with 2000€ budget: yamaha ydp163 1000€, 1 year of piano lessons 1000€.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779360
11/08/18 06:52 PM
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I own the Yamaha CLP-645 and I must say that Yamaha does have some of the heaviest keys on their more expensive pianos. The NWX is probably slightly lighter than the GH3 on the 635. I think the 645 also has one of the best (if not the best) sound system among DPs in its price range.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779417
11/08/18 11:50 PM
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Roland HP 605. I've got it!

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779424
11/09/18 12:41 AM
11/09/18 12:41 AM
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Online content
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Originally Posted by Markuska
Because that just came to my head and I did not wanted to make a new thread:
Is it basically possible to ADD speakers to DPs (in addition to the built in ones) or do you REPLACE them as a whole?

Btw atm I will wait until around Christmas to finally decide - will tell my decision and reasons here then ofc.


I've never heard of anyone replacing the loudspeakers. You'd probably want to replace the amplifiers as well -- unless you're really good with electronic design and repair, I wouldn't advise that.

You can _add_ a pair of "powered monitor speakers" (with built-in amplifiers), and run two cables from the "Line Out" jacks of the DP to the loudspeakers. It's easy, that way. Many of us (including me) have done it.

The HP605 has 37 watts per channel (left and right channels), and 12cm woofers. So, for better sound, you would want more power, and larger woofers.

There are many makers, and no single "best choice". Common suggestions here are the JBL LSR305 or LSR308, or the Yamaha HS5 / HS7 / HS8. The LSR308 has been replaced by the JBL "Professional 308P MKII 8". With over 100 watts per speaker, and 8" woofers, that should give you some righteous sound.

There may be other brands and models available in Europe. Thomann probably has everything.

Have fun!


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2779425
11/09/18 01:09 AM
11/09/18 01:09 AM
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Cabinet and Console DPs are usually designed to be self sufficient sound wise (HP605's 37 Watts per channel is very decent for a small living room). Having said that, most will have line outs and will give you the option to toggle the internal speakers OFF/ON while external speakers are attached. I highly recommend that you consult the user manual of whichever DP you are considering to find out more about how (or if) it implements this functionality.

If you are going the path of using external speakers, I recommend that you check out stage pianos without internal speakers at all such as the RD2000.



Yamaha P-125, Pianoteq 6, Ravenscroft 275 VST, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Angelos58] #2779555
11/09/18 02:47 PM
11/09/18 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd
I just ordered …. and returned …. he Yamaha P-515 and put another E8 (I had one previously) on order.

I liked everything about the Yamaha P-515 except the sound. There was a metallic sound at the end of tones that I could not abide.

I know the ES8 and it is just too good to give up.



And the price! I really fell in love with that one!

Originally Posted by Snail
What i would do with 2000€ budget: yamaha ydp163 1000€, 1 year of piano lessons 1000€.

Thats actually something I have thought of myself - everything that remains from my budget goes into lessons.

Originally Posted by Angelos58
Roland HP 605. I've got it!

I have a feeling that that one will be the strongest competitor. I played the FP90 and loved the action and the connection between me and the DP. But I have a (highly subjective) feeling that Rolands technology kinda NEEDS powerfull speakers, but that is just a feeling, but maybe I can test it tomorrow.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2780020
11/11/18 09:04 AM
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Next Update: Had the third time of testing now.

Roland: Unfortunately when listening for the second time, I did not like the Roland sound, neither on the FP90, nor the HP605. Expected to like them more.

Yamaha: I tried the P-515 and again, did not like the sound that much, but I think that was due to the speakers maybe? What I think was funny is, that I tried the 645 again and was not that happy with it. Just for fun, I tried the 635 again and liked it much more. Talk about the need to try instead of reading specs.

Kawai: Tbh at the beginning, due to the amount of issues I read on PW I was against Kawai, but that cant be said anymore. I tested CN17/27/37 CA67//48 ES8 and I liked ALL of them (well the CA98 I tested was the best, but I am not that wealthy^^). Especially the CA48 and CN37 were really nice. I will be able to test an CA58 next time, this is in the top price range, but if its perfect - why not? I also really liked the CA67 which many people placed high above the 48, but its around €2500 and I did not have the feeling like "WOW, I NEED that". Again, this clearly shows how subjective this issue is.

So (with the possibility of maybe the LX705 if it arrives on time), its more or less narrowed down to:
CLP635
CN37
CA48
CA58 ( I think I should be able to negotiate that to around €1900?)
ES8

Maybe I will even get "only" the CN17/27 if I am happy enough and will invest the money in some lessons.
Cant wait, I want to have it before christmas.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2780029
11/11/18 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Markuska


Roland: Unfortunately when listening for the second time, I did not like the Roland sound, neither on the FP90, nor the HP605. Expected to like them more.

So (with the possibility of maybe the LX705 if it arrives on time), its more or less narrowed down to:


Try to play with settings a bit on HP 605, also it would be probably best to wait for LX 705, newest technology 90% of times is always better.
And if you order it earlier you should get it on time. My local shop already let me know there is LX 708 wating in warehouse.

Last edited by Nordomus; 11/11/18 09:50 AM.
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Nordomus] #2780134
11/11/18 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Markuska


Roland: Unfortunately when listening for the second time, I did not like the Roland sound, neither on the FP90, nor the HP605. Expected to like them more.

So (with the possibility of maybe the LX705 if it arrives on time), its more or less narrowed down to:


Try to play with settings a bit on HP 605, also it would be probably best to wait for LX 705, newest technology 90% of times is always better.
And if you order it earlier you should get it on time. My local shop already let me know there is LX 708 wating in warehouse.



Any recommendations? It just sounded a bit dull/weak.

Theres a CA67 floor modell here, which they sell for 2500. But since Ive seen a Bstock CA67 for €1999 somewhere online, maybe I could make such a deal? Does €2000 for a CA67 sound nice. Allthough this would be the top of the budget...

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2782021
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Question: does anyone have thoughts on the Dexibell Home series?

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2782026
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I just played on the Roland HP-601 today while I am waiting on my ES8 purchase.

I really liked it.

I played the HP-603 also … and did not like it.

I would strongly suggest the 601.


Don

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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: dmd] #2782048
11/17/18 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd
I just played on the Roland HP-601 today while I am waiting on my ES8 purchase.

I really liked it.

I played the HP-603 also … and did not like it.

I would strongly suggest the 601.



Weird because they both have the same keybed. I would pick the 603A out of the two. Reason it has 1/4 inch outputs for external speakers. What didn't you like about the Hp603 compared to the PH601?
I'm just curious smile


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2782061
11/18/18 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Markuska
Question: does anyone have thoughts on the Dexibell Home series?


You really have got to try them out yourself. Unfortunately not many shops carry them and even less have demo units.

Basically Dexibell's sampling tech is one of the best out there. The quality of Dexibells piano samples are as good as the Nord piano samples if not better. The action is also very similar to that of the Nord piano. The Nord Piano 4 uses Fatar's TP-40M whereas the Dexibell S7 uses TP-40H. Both weighted actions but not graded. They are light however which is important in a stage piano. The Dexibell's P7 (portable piano for home use) uses Fatar's slightly less impressive TP100 action.

So Basically if you're looking for a Nord Piano like Keyboard without having to pay through the nose for a Nord, have a look at Dexibell....specifically the S7.

I personally prefer a graded weighted action and as such the Dexibell is a no go for me, unless I consider their highest end keyboards the VIVO S9 ($3999) or the home piano VIVO H7 $4199. But both cost more than I'd like to spend on a digital piano.



Yamaha P-125, Pianoteq 6, Ravenscroft 275 VST, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: halherta] #2782070
11/18/18 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by halherta
The Nord Piano 4 uses Fatar's TP-40M whereas the Dexibell S7 uses TP-40H

From what i’ve seen, the nord piano4 uses the heavy, and the dexibell s7 uses the medium...

...but he did specify dexibell ‘home series’, which is the H models.


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: halherta] #2782117
11/18/18 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by halherta
Originally Posted by Markuska
Question: does anyone have thoughts on the Dexibell Home series?


You really have got to try them out yourself. Unfortunately not many shops carry them and even less have demo units.

Basically Dexibell's sampling tech is one of the best out there. The quality of Dexibells piano samples are as good as the Nord piano samples if not better. The action is also very similar to that of the Nord piano. The Nord Piano 4 uses Fatar's TP-40M whereas the Dexibell S7 uses TP-40H. Both weighted actions but not graded. They are light however which is important in a stage piano. The Dexibell's P7 (portable piano for home use) uses Fatar's slightly less impressive TP100 action.

So Basically if you're looking for a Nord Piano like Keyboard without having to pay through the nose for a Nord, have a look at Dexibell....specifically the S7.

I personally prefer a graded weighted action and as such the Dexibell is a no go for me, unless I consider their highest end keyboards the VIVO S9 ($3999) or the home piano VIVO H7 $4199. But both cost more than I'd like to spend on a digital piano.


Yeah, I also found out that they are quite hard to find - I asked the company now where to play them. As you said, it was the samples that catched me, have to see if I like the action, but actually this could be just hypotetically, since graded keyboards are also important to me, and even if the H7 is "only" 2600€ here, thats over my budget.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2782125
11/18/18 07:30 AM
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There's always the option to buy Dexibell's piano module and hook it up to the master controller of your choice. Which is a completely other can of worms...or a great opportunity.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: EPW] #2782138
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Originally Posted by EPW
Originally Posted by dmd
I just played on the Roland HP-601 today while I am waiting on my ES8 purchase.

I really liked it.

I played the HP-603 also … and did not like it.

I would strongly suggest the 601.



Weird because they both have the same keybed. I would pick the 603A out of the two. Reason it has 1/4 inch outputs for external speakers. What didn't you like about the Hp603 compared to the PH601?
I'm just curious smile


The keys on the 603 were made of a different material than on the 601. They were slippery and shiny while the 601 keys were dull and made with different material.

Also, you mentioned speakers. I played with headphones so speakers were not considered.


Don

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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2785674
11/28/18 03:15 PM
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To those of you who are in the DP-market for quite a while: There seems to be this NAMM-fair in January?
Is this somewhere where BIG stuff is announced and likely announced there for the first time - in other words: if I am not totally dying of waiting (which i may) should I wait for this fair?

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2785859
11/29/18 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Markuska
To those of you who are in the DP-market for quite a while: There seems to be this NAMM-fair in January?
Is this somewhere where BIG stuff is announced and likely announced there for the first time - in other words: if I am not totally dying of waiting (which i may) should I wait for this fair?

NAMM in January in the US is just one of the worldwide music fairs that occur throughout the year. Many manufacturers will reveal something new at these fairs, so this includes NAMM. With just a few weeks to wait it is probably worth holding out, but at other times probably not unless you have specific data to ask your decision on. Something announced new in NAMM or other fairs may not reach the shops until several months later, and you may not like ‘it’ anyway.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2785929
11/29/18 09:40 AM
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Exactly! (If that were not so ... then maybe it would make sense to wait for NAMM 2020. Or NAMM 2050!
My take is don't wait. If you need a piano, find one and buy it.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2785962
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Thanks to both of you - I think I will just keep on trying in the stores and if somethings TAKES me, I am just going to buy it (wherever I get a reasonable price) smile

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2787731
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Hm, now we have the salad as we say in german ("now we have a problem" for those unfamiliar with our highly absurd language).

I actually found a piano I loved and more, that was the Casio GP300, I even liked the "low" modell and was aiming for the 400 for the additional features, but at €2000 its just impossible for the dealer he said. I will still try to compare 300 and 400 in live action to be sure, that I would have wanted the 400 more, but I am quite sure (at least for the feature to STORE settings). I have also found that the ES8 would be "sufficient" for me, while sufficient is a bad word here, Kawai really did an outstanding job here for a piano at the price point.

BUT, I think I could not live with spending a lot money (for me) and then going for the one I liked most (even more than other high end DPs). So atm I am torn, and driven in the direction of getting something which will allow me to practice efficent (since I dont even have a hammer action at my current keyboard) and a VST with a quick setup speed (less then 10 seconds, I hate to wait). Then I could go the "MacMacMac-Route" (neologisms rule) of waiting till I move to somewhere I will definately stay for years and save money (maybe for an accoustic grand finance or a high end hybrid).

The money I save right now could then go into lessons. So this is where I stand atm^^

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2787804
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Originally Posted by Markuska
Hm, now we have the salad as we say in german ("now we have a problem" for those unfamiliar with our highly absurd language).

I actually found a piano I loved and more, that was the Casio GP300, I even liked the "low" modell and was aiming for the 400 for the additional features, but at €2000 its just impossible for the dealer he said. I will still try to compare 300 and 400 in live action to be sure, that I would have wanted the 400 more, but I am quite sure (at least for the feature to STORE settings). I have also found that the ES8 would be "sufficient" for me, while sufficient is a bad word here, Kawai really did an outstanding job here for a piano at the price point.

BUT, I think I could not live with spending a lot money (for me) and then going for the one I liked most (even more than other high end DPs). So atm I am torn, and driven in the direction of getting something which will allow me to practice efficent (since I dont even have a hammer action at my current keyboard) and a VST with a quick setup speed (less then 10 seconds, I hate to wait). Then I could go the "MacMacMac-Route" (neologisms rule) of waiting till I move to somewhere I will definately stay for years and save money (maybe for an accoustic grand finance or a high end hybrid).

The money I save right now could then go into lessons. So this is where I stand atm^^


Invest money in a laptop, they are cheap these days, dedicate this laptop only for music, so the boot up will be short. If manufacturers deliver a good controller like a kawai vpc1, but cheaper, I hope they will do it this January at NAMM.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2787805
12/04/18 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Markuska
The money I save right now could then go into lessons.

If this is even a tradeoff consideration for you, then I'd personally opt for money into lessons.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2787808
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Originally Posted by Markuska
….. I have also found that the ES8 would be "sufficient" for me, while sufficient is a bad word here, Kawai really did an outstanding job here for a piano at the price point......


Well, now that you have said that …. you have my attention.

In my opinion, the ES8 is absolutely the one for you.

Reasonably nice piece of furniture. Great sound from internal speakers. Excellent keyboard action.

I owned one for over 2 years.... Sold it, thinking I was going to go in another direction.

Realized I had made a big mistake. Re-purchased a new ES8.

I like everything about it and now the price point is probably lower that initial pricing.

You would not be disappointed.


Don

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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2787825
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I think it will be a mix of the mentioned suggestions with an uncertain outcome. Of course I am eagerly waiting for my DP, but I would set a deadline for after the NAMM in January and until then I should have been able to also test the new LX705 in Vienna and also all of the "cheap" DPs (FP30, ES110, Yamaha whateverP-something). While doing that I will check for the prices for the ES8 and if there is a nice deal I may also just catch that one smile

The good thing about the wait: is there a better way to spend ones days than checking pianoworld for new stuff and suggestions?^^

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2787826
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Originally Posted by Markuska
... is there a better way to spend ones days than checking pianoworld for new stuff and suggestions?^^


I think so.

I would prefer playing my "new" piano. smile


Don

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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: jeffscot] #2787837
12/04/18 06:31 PM
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Hi

Sorry for hijacking this thread but it seem to be lots of similar threads on this topic already.
I am also looking for a dp and as of now Im strongly leaning towards the Kawai Cn37(1550 euro) with Roland HP 601(1800 euro) as contestant.

A question i have which may be a silly one is regarding the apps.
I hope to have my kids beginning to play and I think some good digital apps would really help maintaining their interest.
Roland has their Piano partner 2 app which seem pooular while Kawai has none.
Is this an issue? Or are there generic apps that work on a Kawai dp out there that will do more or less the same job?

Regards
Stefan

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Steffo] #2787839
12/04/18 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Steffo
Roland has their Piano partner 2 app which seem pooular while Kawai has none.

Roland even has a newer app than Piano Partner 2.


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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2787905
12/05/18 12:33 AM
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Since you were looking at the casio GP, there is also the "secret" model AP700 that doesn't have the fancy Bechstein keyboard but has the inside brain of the GP even with the same samples. Sells for much less. If you like the sound of GP you would pretty much like the AP700. Not to easy find one on display though, people who are in the loop tend to snatch these and casio seems to rather sell you the GP.

I am partial to casio because I own one. But really it is down to what you really like when you play one. It is no good to argue which of the major brands are best. For example I got so used to my PX-860 sound and was just few days ago trying some big buck yamaha at store and I was like "where is the sound?" I am sure someone used to yamahas will say the same trying the casio.


Casio PX-860, Roland Fantom G, Kurzweil PC1X, Korg Micro X
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Steffo] #2787928
12/05/18 02:15 AM
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Hello Stefan, welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by Steffo
A question i have which may be a silly one is regarding the apps.
I hope to have my kids beginning to play and I think some good digital apps would really help maintaining their interest.
Roland has their Piano partner 2 app which seem pooular while Kawai has none.
Is this an issue? Or are there generic apps that work on a Kawai dp out there that will do more or less the same job?


Kawai has the Virtual Technician (iPad) and Sound Museum (iOS) apps, and there are plenty of third party lesson/study/fun apps that can connect to the instrument via Bluetooth, or simply listen to the sound produced by the instrument using the device's microphone.

Kind regards,
James
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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Kawai James] #2788063
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Thank you James.
Then the Roland specific apps alone dont seem to be worth the 250 euro extra for the HP 601.
I have no local dealer with CN37 but I got to try a ES8 today and liked the action.
How much does the sound differ between ES8 and CN37?

Kind regards
Stefan

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2788092
12/05/18 01:59 PM
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Its a different engine with the ES8 having the better one. Some people said that they like the sound of the CN37 better due to the speakers, but in my opinion this does not weigh off the for me MUCH better sound of th ES8 (especially with Headphones).

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2788099
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Thanks for the input.
As Im searching for a furniture dp the ES8 + stand etc is slightly above my budget.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2788134
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Whats the price difference? I have heard that its much easier to negotiate the stand than the instrument itself smile

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Steffo] #2788158
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Originally Posted by Steffo
Thanks for the input.
As Im searching for a furniture dp the ES8 + stand etc is slightly above my budget.


By ES8+stand I hope you are talking about the furniture stand that is made for it.

If you are, I also hope you are not judging the price by the price listed.

The ES8 is being heavily discounted at most sites now.

You need to talk with a sales person and get a firm price.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2788168
12/05/18 05:29 PM
12/05/18 05:29 PM
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The dealer talked about close to 1900 euro.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Steffo] #2788264
12/06/18 12:38 AM
12/06/18 12:38 AM
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Posts: 14,830
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by Steffo
Thanks for the input.
As Im searching for a furniture dp the ES8 + stand etc is slightly above my budget.


Originally Posted by Steffo
The dealer talked about close to 1900 euro.


I'm not sure where you're based, but it might be worth showing your dealer the Thomann price and asking if they can price match:

https://www.thomann.de/intl/kawai_es_8_b_deluxe_bundle.htm

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2788349
12/06/18 11:35 AM
12/06/18 11:35 AM
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Thanks James.
I live in Sweden.

Another question: I thought Bluetooth support always meant you can stream music to the piano from mobile device.
Is this not the case with cn27/37?
If so, which models of Kawai and Roland support this?

Kind regards
Stefan

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Steffo] #2788356
12/06/18 11:44 AM
12/06/18 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Steffo
Thanks James.
I live in Sweden.

Stefan- Did you notice that Thomann delivers to Sweden? Call or email to confirm, but it appears you can just order the piano from the German site for delivery to your home in Sweden.


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Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2788377
12/06/18 12:54 PM
12/06/18 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Markuska
...The money I save right now could then go into lessons.....


If you wish to go in the direction of cheaper ….

I recently purchased a Casio PX-160 as a backup (I can't be without a piano) keyboard for when my ES8 may need work for whatever reason.

I was absolutely blown away by the playability and sound I get from the PX-160.

I love it.

I would have no problem gigging with it.

You may want to consider something like this ….

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PX160BK--casio-privia-px-160-digital-piano-black

and this ….

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZStd--on-stage-stands-ks7350-pro-heavy-duty-z-stand


OR

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...160-digital-piano-and-stand-bundle-black



Personally, I like the Z-Stand with it because it allows me to swap another digital and no have to keep dealing with a wooden stand.

But either way …. Of course, you may not be able to shop where I did but you may find it priced similarly elsewhere.

Much cheaper and it is not junk.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Steffo] #2788566
12/07/18 01:44 AM
12/07/18 01:44 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by Steffo
I thought Bluetooth support always meant you can stream music to the piano from mobile device.
Is this not the case with cn27/37?
If so, which models of Kawai and Roland support this?


Current DPs implement Bluetooth in different ways:

Bluetooth MIDI: Allows MIDI information to be transmitted and received wirelessly to/from a device.

Bluetooth Audio: Allows audio data to be received from a device and output through the instrument's speakers.

The ES110, KDP110, CN27/CN37, and CA48/CA58 support Bluetooth MIDI only.
The CA78/CA98, NV10, and ATX3/AURES instrument support both Bluetooth MIDI and Bluetooth Audio.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Kawai James] #2788678
12/07/18 10:52 AM
12/07/18 10:52 AM
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Thanks yet again James. I wish I had someone like you at a dealer close by.
Unfortunatly the closest Kawai dealer is 50km away and he doesnt return my calls.

Anyway, Im more or less set on a CN37 because

Pros
1. I liked the action(on an ES8)
2. Seem to have good speakers and sound engine
3. Good connectivity(I plan to use line in to stream music since bt audio is missing)
4. Furniture looks good

Cons
I havent had the opportunity to actually play and listen to the sound so its a bit of a chance.

Swedish internet dealers sell it for 1550 euro which i about my budget limit. Is this a good price?


Stefan

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2788713
12/07/18 12:00 PM
12/07/18 12:00 PM
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Order placed.

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2801351
01/12/19 06:59 PM
01/12/19 06:59 PM
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Markuska Online content OP
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So funny, how everything worked out. If no one is showing some amazing new stuff at the NAMM with the addition "you can get this in 2 weeks in the store" I am getting a CLP645.

How did this happen? Well, a lot of stuff and since everyone seems to appreciate detailled reviews here, I would like to give on.

What happened with the Kawais was, that I really liked most of them to a certain extent. They are excellent pianos and that goes from CN27 up to a CA98. I think that especially people who like lightweigt actions will love them. But the thing was, that none of them pleased ME enough to get it. Even the GFII. So they were out at one point, but still - I can really recommend them.

Roland: I waited long to try out the new LX series and they are nice. I was not able to play the 705, but since the only thing that bothered me was the sound on the 605, and I already know the PH50 action. Unfortunately it still was not MY sound. What I highly encourage everyone to do when trying modelled Rolands in general is to try different soundboards. They change the sounds A LOT and I dont really get why this feature isnt more advertised.

Casio: again - big shoutout for the GPs. I think they have an excellent action, one of the best I played and some of the sounds are outstanding. This was the thougest competition for the 645, but in the end it was to expensive for me, without feeling (a lot?) better than the 645. What really bothered me was that you need at least a GP400 to save settings as far as I understand and that the headphone amp is really weak. But as said - outstanding instruments.

Yamaha: people who read my previous posts may notice that I was no fan of the 645 in the beginning due to the heavy touch, nor a BIG fan of the Yamahas in generall. But after reading someones post somewhere suggesting trying EVERYTHING in the store, I tried them again. And when trying the 645/685 again I kinda fell in pianolove with them. Again I noticed that the action is very heavy, but after playing a bit you a. get used to and b./more important I could feel being more dynamically expressive and that I just got a feel of getting better while playing. After spending time on them my fingers were also much better on other pianos.

After checking again yesterday I found out that I liked the action on the 645 more or at least equally as the one on the 685.

One of the most important reasons was the sound of the instrument. Of course I know that theres the way to use VSTs, but I know myself - I just want to sit down and play! Even for 5Minutes. I dont want to turn on my pc all the time. Maybe I will use them one day but I also want a sound I like ready to play at all the time. And only the Yamaha gives me this kind of "IN YOUR FACE" brilliiant piano sound that I like so much, even more after adjusting some settings. And also the Bösendorfer rocks with the right settings.

And it looks good and is certainly in the budget.

A really important moment was also when I had the possibility to play an acoustic upright during christmas holidays. It was a bit out of tune, but still regarding the action it was so different from the DPs. I started my budget around €800-€1000 (Arius 163 was in my mind) then raised to €1200, then to €2000 and was thinking of spending even more. But after playing the acoustic I found at that for ME that makes no sense. They are just different from DPs, especially the real feeling of a hammer hitting. I really like that and hope to get it one day. On this topic I would also like to mention that feelingwise I think that the NU1X had the nicest action for me. Interestingly I even liked it more than the N1, due to the sound of the later. Someone mentioned it, and I also think its really important to play an instrument with all senses - I cant describe it, and most likely its objetively wrong, but actions just feel different to me with sound.

So what am I going to do now? Atm I am waiting for the NAMM, but I am quite sure that everything that may be announced there wont be availiable until sometime. Especially after experiencing the time it took from Roland telling us about the new LX series and the possibility to play them.

Mostly I am waiting for the sake of "more products - more competition - better price". I dont expect the price to drop by itself all of sudden, but I will make an offer based on that. And if they say no, we'll see. I definately wont be paying more than €2000 (prices where at €1700 sometimes this year).

So, I have to thank everyone again that helped me and while being time-consuming all in all it was a pleasure to search. I learned so much, even a lot about accoustics and even when I have my CLP I will still read here most likely everday!!

At the very end let me give my own bit of adivce to anyone buying. You read it a 100times, but its true - you have to try YOUR piano for yourself. Even now still the CLP645 is the best for ME, but I would never say that its better than a HP605 or a CA58. Others will find them more pleasing. Just try them out and get what fells best for you (in your budget).

I also would say that the comparision to acoustics is not that ideal starting point. Let aside the fact that its just different action that, except for the hybrids, does not feel like an acoustic at the moment, but also: which acoustic would you like it to feel like? There are hundreds of instruments, that even differentiate a lot in their group of acoustics, so imho you can never say "X feels closest to acoustics".

Well, thanks again everyone and I will give a review again after playing sometime smile

Greetings from Germany
Markus

Re: Buying advice (max. €2000) [Re: Markuska] #2817552
02/19/19 05:58 PM
02/19/19 05:58 PM
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Germany
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Markuska Online content OP
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Germany
Btw.does anyone have a quick suggestion for the oldest IPad one can use for using all CLP-related apps?

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