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Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771633
10/11/18 08:28 PM
10/11/18 08:28 PM
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Richrf Offline
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Most method books have some associated theory books which teach some theory as one studies associated pieces. Of those that are designed like this, I think the Faber-All- In-One is ac reasonable choice.

Oh the videos I've looked at on YouTube, I find the Leonard Bernstein lectures most informative and entertaining:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyPLVV5ZP3toAOnj7OcVXN8voaQKFAzUY

Also, there are free music theory courses available for many genres on the Coursera website. I started the one on Blues, but temporarily put it aside, because theory without actual experience, was rather empty and meaningless for me. The words had no meaning without the actual musical experience. As you probably have figured out by now, I mostly study how to create the nuanced language of sounds/music.

You don't need a teacher for any of this. What is necessary is patience and experience.

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Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771636
10/11/18 08:43 PM
10/11/18 08:43 PM
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John305 Offline
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Moo, you have a very weird autocorrect or you’re using new words that I’m not hip to. What is amazoid?


It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771662
10/11/18 11:21 PM
10/11/18 11:21 PM
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New York
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I think I would ask myself what was the most effective (not efficient, though it might be that too) way I ever learned something, and then apply that to the task at hand.

At the risk of sounding like the old fogy I am, the longer you live, the more experience you can bring to bear on that question, and the more independent learning that experience might contain.

Early on (and this is not praise of the school system) a lot of learning is controlled by the adult in the room. There's nothing wrong with the structure and drill involved - but it is rare (not unheard of, but rare) that that approach works well in the absence of a near term goal to apply it to. It certainly didn't for me, but it may for you. YMMV.

Peace.

Last edited by Medved1; 10/11/18 11:21 PM.

Mason & Hamlin A ('97)
Re: What To Learn? [Re: IosPlayer] #2771669
10/11/18 11:56 PM
10/11/18 11:56 PM
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Finn1996 Offline OP
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Thank you guys for turning the discussion around and posting links and resources, I really do appreciate it!


Originally Posted by IosPlayer
Hi Finn, check this out: https://www.piano-keyboard-guide.com/keyboard-chords.html

What I find odd is that you are asking for specifics that are easily findable for someone with a college education, like the list of chords above. There are about 135 or so, I believe. So now you have all the chords you will ever need.

I agree that the posters here are having a knee jerk reaction, but I also wonder why you are asking, you seem to have a great plan for your method, you have already outlined at least a year's work, why not just get down to it and see what happens. You really don't need any more info at this point of your musical self education.

People here are pretty nice. They want to spare you, but you are not asking to be spared, but again, if you have come this far, if all the info is readily available by googling, if you have enough confidence to begin a " new" method in depth, if you don't wish to waste money on a teacher, if a teacher is not necessary in your case, okay! But consider this, you are asking for information that most students have acquired by spending hard earned money on teachers and education. If you abjure what teachers have to offer why are you glomming info that people have gone to teachers to acquire?



Ya see that's part of the reason I came here asking, because every page I searched for chords all had different lists and different numbers, I was getting confused so I thought it might be easier to just ask some people. And I asked because I wanted to fill in the blanks to my method, because I know there are blanks. As far as scales and stuff go, I have a pretty good idea of that whole terrain, but further into advanced chords, modes, etc., is where my knowledge starts to fall off, so again, I thought I'd ask because I thought people here might know more advanced stuff.

As for the teacher thing .. ya, I mean, fair enough I guess. I see your points and I can agree with that. But its not like I'm (directly) stealing from you or your teachers, I'm just asking questions, I'm not getting the teaching experiences you guys had. I ask the questions, you give up the information you want to give and feel is necessary, I'm not asking you guys for lessons. Its kinda like how you can teach yourself a ton of college/university content by yourself, you can either pay the money and have it presented to you in an orderly fashion at a school and get a certificate after, or you can spend a bunch of time searching the messy Internet trying to figure it out yourself, the result is the same, the former is easier but costs, the ladder is harder but doesn't cost.

I am thinking about getting a teacher though. I did a search just for fun, and a studio in my city near my college offers piano lessons, so I think I might take it up (although probably more than 50% of my motivation is to hopefully get my foot in the door for a job opportunity at the studio once I graduate lol but still). I think it might be helpful to talk to an actual teacher about my method and their method and they can compare and educate me on stuff I don't know and move forward from there, rather than asking a bunch of strangers on a forum who I thought would be qualified.

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771670
10/12/18 12:02 AM
10/12/18 12:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 31
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Finn1996 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Piano Wars WW3...by le moo smile

- Normal starts with an innocent query from a new poster or an older poster that involves a) not learning with a teacher or b) following a 'non-piano world approved' method (e.g. not following a method book etc.).

- This is the trigger and starts a post series of by many posters stating helpful posts such as. GET A TEACHER.. and GET A TEACHER... and GET A TEACHER.

- There is a lot of i got a teacher, i am amazoid, this is only way to learn.

- This is followed by a backlash from people who dont get a teacher. Who say you can learn otherwise.

- THis is then followed by but you cant get amazoid without a teacher.

- Later it goes into low level violence and scapegoating followed by the setting up of local miliitias on each front.

- Eventually it leads to border wars with civilians and then full out warfare with tanks / submarines and later nuclear weapons.

- Then there is a break for a week.

- People regroup in the ceasefire and they wait for another poor victim here that posts another trigger post and we have another piano world war.

- Scary place X



lol jeez, if this place is actually like that on a regular basis, I don't think I'll hang around here much lol



Originally Posted by Moo :)
Yes we got into piano world ww3 again as expected.

We had all this before mr finn so dont take it personal, the same people say the same things in every post and normally new people get scared and never come back.

Good on for fighting, I support you in the war. It should be ok in beginner forum to have people being treated a bit nicer often it is hard to know what to do when starting something.



But like .. I never wanted to fight lol I'm still quite baffled as to why there even was a fight, I didn't expect the reactions I got at all.



Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist


You can try posting the same question on Reddit or the Piano Technique Discussion group on Facebook if you are looking for different opinions.

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/243421769180517/




Nah, I really don't feel like getting beefed with again on other forums lol

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Richrf] #2771673
10/12/18 12:11 AM
10/12/18 12:11 AM
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Posts: 31
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Finn1996 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer


Ya I saw that! That was actually one of the pages that confused me though. I scrolled through it and thought "wait, what about power chords? what about major/minor ninths?" etc. I concluded that there were missing chords and I marked it as an incomplete list.


Originally Posted by bennevis


Thank you for the suggestion! But from the page previews it seems I already know most of that stuff. I'm not a complete newbie, I know some things haha.


Originally Posted by Richrf

Oh the videos I've looked at on YouTube, I find the Leonard Bernstein lectures most informative and entertaining:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyPLVV5ZP3toAOnj7OcVXN8voaQKFAzUY


Thanks for the link! I may watch some of these, but judging by the titles it seems kind of irrelevant to what I'm looking for, or maybe the titles are describing what the actual content will be.

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771675
10/12/18 12:19 AM
10/12/18 12:19 AM
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Finn1996 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Medved1
I think I would ask myself what was the most effective (not efficient, though it might be that too) way I ever learned something, and then apply that to the task at hand.


That's pretty much how I derived my method. My thoughts were simple:


1) Have an overall big goal, and complete many small goals to get there.

2) Find every concept, break them down into their smallest parts, and learn them one at a time.


Again, sounded pretty effective/efficient to me, idk. I have a strong passion for music so I'm not very concerned with boredom, it never really crosses my mind when I'm practicing or thinking about my method or anything. Although my ideas may sound boring and non-expressive/creative, to me it kinda seems like the most logical way to learn things. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't really know what to think anymore tbh lol

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771680
10/12/18 01:04 AM
10/12/18 01:04 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,631
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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My most sincere advice, for the following reasons, is to get a good teacher.
A good teacher can:
- assess your needs and tailor the teaching to those needs
- assess your goals and guide you - efficiently - towards them
- choose a method that will work best for you, whether it is that teacher's own method or one produced by someone else. (Your alternative is, independently, to cherry-pick here and there but possibly without finding what you really need)
- assess your technique and correct it when it's wrong before you learn bad technique or even practice technique in such a way that will cause injury.
- move you at a pace appropriate to your progress with technique and repertoire that will continue your advancement.

Answer me this: Why is it that good students, the best students, work with a teacher? Why is it that even the most advanced conservatory students study with the best teachers they can find? That is why many of them attend conservatories.

In case you have forgotten what you wrote earlier:

Next, to anyone saying I need a teacher, I really don't think I do. I think I'm capable of learning on my own. I was thinking of seeing a teacher at some point down the road just to check to make sure I'm doing things right physically (posture, fingering, hand positioning, etc.). Other than the physical aspect of playing, I don't think I need a teacher.


Do you really believe that teachers are not needed, that they are superfluous to the learning process, and that you can do better on your own?

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: What To Learn? [Re: BruceD] #2771686
10/12/18 01:35 AM
10/12/18 01:35 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,032
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Whizbang Offline
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Originally Posted by BruceD

Answer me this: Why is it that good students, the best students, work with a teacher? Why is it that even the most advanced conservatory students study with the best teachers they can find? That is why many of them attend conservatories.


I think this is not a good argument. The best students, in classical, are going to need to launch into a career. It is not fair, but in classical music, that likely depends a lot on being in the club and that means a pedigree unless you can break the rules in the right way.

I say this as a person who has learned a huge amount about music from my teach.He knew performance conventions that I only internalized after a long time with him.

I think finding the right teacher is a godsend. And not necessarily a miracle, but just kind of a day to day listening and applying that sort of adds up. Conversely, a wrong teacher can be pretty disastrous.

Do you perforce need a teacher? I don't think so, but it comes down to your personality.


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Re: What To Learn? [Re: BruceD] #2771694
10/12/18 02:33 AM
10/12/18 02:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 173
England
Lillith Offline
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England
Originally Posted by BruceD

Answer me this: Why is it that good students, the best students, work with a teacher?
Regards,


Why is it that bad students work with a teacher?
Really, the argument 'everybody else does it so it must be right' won't wash at all. I don't even need to elaborate on that.

I think the OP's method sounds excellent and I am going to ditch Alfred in favour of it.
If he published it, I can guarantee that there would be many people adopt it.

I hope to see you all at Carnegie Hall in a couple of years.


Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?
Roland FP30 in white
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Whizbang] #2771695
10/12/18 02:37 AM
10/12/18 02:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 31
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Finn1996 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BruceD

Do you really believe that teachers are not needed, that they are superfluous to the learning process, and that you can do better on your own?



I didn't say they are not needed, I was saying that I don't feel I need one. I think I could, at the very least, do good enough on my own. I'm learning piano/music theory mainly to help me with creating music and producing, but also as a musical hobby and a trade. I'm not trying to play in concert halls and all that.

But my main reason against finding a teacher is this:

Originally Posted by Whizbang

I think finding the right teacher is a godsend. And not necessarily a miracle, but just kind of a day to day listening and applying that sort of adds up. Conversely, a wrong teacher can be pretty disastrous.



This is pretty much exactly how I feel about finding a teacher. I agree that all the things you listed would be great to have in a teacher, but how likely is it that I'm going to find one who does all of that on my first try? If it all? And all at a reasonable rate? Do you see where I'm going with this. With all that in mind, I think it would be wise for me, at least financially, to see how much I can learn on my own first. Having a great teacher would be great, of course, but the hassle of finding the "right" one, paying the money, taking up extra space in my schedule, etc. just doesn't seem worth it to me right off the bat, especially if I believe in my self-sufficiency and capability of learning.

So, again, just to be clear, I'm not knocking teachers, I just don't feel a teacher is a priority for me right now.

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Lillith] #2771696
10/12/18 02:41 AM
10/12/18 02:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
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Finn1996 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lillith
Originally Posted by BruceD

Answer me this: Why is it that good students, the best students, work with a teacher?
Regards,


Why is it that bad students work with a teacher?
Really, the argument 'everybody else does it so it must be right' won't wash at all. I don't even need to elaborate on that.

I think the OP's method sounds excellent and I am going to ditch Alfred in favour of it.
If he published it, I can guarantee that there would be many people adopt it.

I hope to see you all at Carnegie Hall in a couple of years.



lol I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not ... but if you're not, thank you very much lol

and I do agree with your first point, it almost seems like there is a stigma towards not getting a teacher, like if you don't get a teacher you'll be frowned upon and naturally discouraged to do otherwise.

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771707
10/12/18 03:37 AM
10/12/18 03:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 173
England
Lillith Offline
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Lillith  Offline
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England
Originally Posted by Finn1996




and I do agree with your first point, it almost seems like there is a stigma towards not getting a teacher, like if you don't get a teacher you'll be frowned upon and naturally discouraged to do otherwise.


It's part of the human thing I think - everybody assumes that somebody else knows how to do things better than they do!

Look at the raft of 'life coaches' where idiots pay some other idiot to tell them how to live their lives.
And the life-coach's only qualification is that they have the nerve to ask money for telling people truisms.

Management consultants the same - don't get me started on them, but it's exactly the same.


Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?
Roland FP30 in white
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771714
10/12/18 04:57 AM
10/12/18 04:57 AM
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bennevis Offline
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Nobody needs a teacher or instructor to do anything (not even to go to Carnegie Hall: you just walk in).

Not even to do a dangerous activity, like sky-diving. After all, it's only your life (as a sage would say).

As for piano playing, the worse that would happen is you hit a brick wall (or injure yourself) because of faulty technique which you didn't know you developed, and decided you're just not cut out to tickle the ivories, so you go tickle something (or someone) else instead. The piano becomes a piece of furniture, but hey, there are worse things to have as furniture.

I know a family whose brand new grand (which I helped them select grin) became an expensive piece of furniture within a year because, against my advice, they wouldn't get a teacher for their daughter and themselves, and decided they were going to teach themselves from YT videos etc. But it still looks good, and they still polish it everyday (or rather, their manservant does - yes, they are that rich).

As for me, I never had a teacher to teach me guitar, so that guitar has lain almost untouched in its case for decades. (It doesn't look good as furniture). Anyway, I don't see myself playing the Concierto de Aranjuez anytime soon, and I can still strum a few chords to accompany friends singing pop and folk songs around the campfire.

Everyone should have fun, in any way they choose.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771731
10/12/18 07:05 AM
10/12/18 07:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 465
Istanbul
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IosPlayer Offline
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Hi Finn, I think what most of us have been missing is that as a young student you are pretty pressed for cash. Very understandable! So you are looking for a way to help yourself. Very commendable! Also, you see this as furthering your knowledge for a career n the music industry. Very logical! The arguments about whether or not to have a teacher are pretty superfluous here. If you had the dough you could search for the right one till you found him or her, but you don't. Maybe you can find a fellow piano seeker who has some knowledge and explore the possibilities together. Bounce ideas back and forth, etc. it would make it more fun and you might find the perfect associate for such an endeavor.

A good teacher is awesome, a bad teacher is devasting. A more true truism no life coach could utter. I hated my education, a system designed to fit me into the workforce by preparing me for criticism and constant focus on my weaknesses rather than affirming my strengths and focusing my studies on them. So take what you can get here, Finn, and go forward. Leave the polemics to those who are invested in being right one way or the other.


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1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Lillith] #2771769
10/12/18 09:16 AM
10/12/18 09:16 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,418
Owen Sound, Ontario
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Greener Offline

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If you want to become wealthy you can take advice from a junk yard mechanic or someone who is already wealthy. It' seems obvious but often we still get it wrong. The correct advise is often too tough to chew. Learning on your own is fine. Lots of us are doing it. It's loading up on theory and scales and thinking you know better that's not fine.

Re: What To Learn? [Re: John305] #2771819
10/12/18 12:16 PM
10/12/18 12:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,034
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Moo :) Offline
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Originally Posted by John305
Moo, you have a very weird autocorrect or you’re using new words that I’m not hip to. What is amazoid?


Amazoid is a hybrid of amazing and asteroid and means you are an elephant 🐘.

X

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771822
10/12/18 12:23 PM
10/12/18 12:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
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Moo :) Offline
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Have a teacher, don’t have a teacher. Blah blah blah. Choose you side. Let’s prepare for a piano world war. Boom 💥.

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771832
10/12/18 12:50 PM
10/12/18 12:50 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,583
Florida
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Florida
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Have a teacher, don’t have a teacher. Blah blah blah. Choose you side. Let’s prepare for a piano world war. Boom 💥.


I'm Switzerland - I have a teacher but do a lot of self-learning as well. We all agree that this forum is a tremendous resource, that's why we're here. We are all self motivated. I don't think that's what is at issue here.

I think the reactions many of us have regarding this thread is the OP's strategy of learning mostly theory and little music, thinking that will translate to becoming a good musician. While theory is good, and I'm big proponent and trying to learn it myself, many of us believe that all theory and no music is not the most ideal path. Also in the very first post, the sheer volume of C major scales and arpeggios, and repetitive mindless work, seems overwhelming and nonproductive. It would be like studying the mechanics of jumping, throwing, and running, all the way from an anatomic standpoint down to the mitochondrial level, and thinking that once learned, one could be a professional or even proficient basketball player.


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Working On
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"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Moo :)] #2771846
10/12/18 01:33 PM
10/12/18 01:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
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sara elizabeth Offline
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Piano Wars WW3...by le moo smile

- Normal starts with an innocent query from a new poster or an older poster that involves a) not learning with a teacher or b) following a 'non-piano world approved' method (e.g. not following a method book etc.).

- This is the trigger and starts a post series of by many posters stating helpful posts such as. GET A TEACHER.. and GET A TEACHER... and GET A TEACHER.

- There is a lot of i got a teacher, i am amazoid, this is only way to learn.

- This is followed by a backlash from people who dont get a teacher. Who say you can learn otherwise.

- THis is then followed by but you cant get amazoid without a teacher.

- Later it goes into low level violence and scapegoating followed by the setting up of local miliitias on each front.

- Eventually it leads to border wars with civilians and then full out warfare with tanks / submarines and later nuclear weapons.

- Then there is a break for a week.

- People regroup in the ceasefire and they wait for another poor victim here that posts another trigger post and we have another piano world war.

- Scary place X


I actually feel this is quite different from the usual debates on piano world. The OP is either the most arrogant kid in the world or a troll.

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