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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771334
10/11/18 07:54 AM
10/11/18 07:54 AM
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I think folks may be overthinking the pedal here. On acoustic pianos, the pedal dynamics are all over the place. Some are light, some are heavy, some are very linear, some have weird response curves. IME there's more variability in acoustic pedals than there is between any two keyboard actions you can think of. You just have to get used to the pedal on whatever piano you are playing.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Doug M.] #2771338
10/11/18 07:57 AM
10/11/18 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
New on YouTube today:


It starts really bad! They've chosen the worst type of piano patch. However the rest is actually very good I liked some of the classical patches. At least on headphones they sound much better than Pianoteq to my ears which is surprising since I'm usually easily bothered by the typical modeled sound. At least on these demos I would be hard-pressed to say the sound is modeled. I'd be really interested to test the piano myself though since online demos and real experience differ so much.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: arc7urus] #2771339
10/11/18 07:58 AM
10/11/18 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Grandman
Originally Posted by arc7urus
TIt is a pity that Roland has not to followed the artist's impression (check the section "Greater focus, fewer distractions" on Roland's LX700 page) and decided to put the controls on the fallboard. These new models would look amazing if all those knobs were out of sight.


Lack of a key cover is a non-issue to me. I like the controls within reach while playing so that adjustments can be made on the fly, as is done here at 2:40 and 4:04:

https://youtu.be/5l7U6XZ82vY?t=152

You can't do that with the controls at the cheek block area. The controls do not present an eyesore to me.


Sure! In that video the DP is being used not as an acoustic piano but as a stage piano. If changing settings during performance is part of your use case, then a DP such as the RD2000, MP11 or Kronos, and to some extent, the FP90, would be more appropriate.


You're right, this is a cabinet piano; however, there is no rule that says cabinet pianos have to be button free. I think having the buttons there is a bigger asset than disadvantage (to me, it's tastefully done); however, it would be an improvement to be 'able to' cover up the buttons and dials for when one is playing it as a straight piano.

I'm not one given to offering praise too often; however, the updates provided---the TRS like system, the updated modelling engine, the nicer cabinet design, the improvements in damper technology, the improvement in amplification technology, the improved pivot length in the action etc etc.,---I think Roland have provided quite a lot in this upgrade, i.e., a combination of characteristics that other manufacturers *at this price point* have yet to offer.

IMO, this product is differentiated enough to make it a tasty offering; further, the top model is cheaper than the LX17 RRP (LX708 - £3519; LX17 - £4025). Therefore, Roland have succeeded in becoming more competitive based upon maybe having reduced the manufacturing cost (and thus RRP) and improved functionality. Whilst constructive criticism is always helpful, I think praise is due to Roland for the improvements they have made.

Having said all that, I'm keen to try it out rather than assume these spec improvements add to the experience.

Last edited by Doug M.; 10/11/18 07:59 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771372
10/11/18 09:54 AM
10/11/18 09:54 AM
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I like the new control panel. Dials are more ergonomic than buttons. A long line of identical-looking buttons with small text next to them is weak UI design. I wonder if this will make it to the next generation of their HP range, or when they are likely to arrive?

I think the 706 hits a sweet spot. I'm not bothered by a traditional-looking fallboard (further back than on a real piano) on the 708, and I like to put music books on top of the piano so the opening top would be more of an inconvenience.

I look forward to hearing if the new action is any good. It is the first major re-design in 20 years so maybe there will be teething problems. And as someone else said, the pivot points were never really too short anyway, so let's hope this isn't just for marketing.


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: lolatu] #2771379
10/11/18 10:11 AM
10/11/18 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by lolatu
I look forward to hearing if the new action is any good. It is the first major re-design in 20 years


I wouldn't call that major nor redesign. It's the same action as before, only longer. Certainly there are structural/tensional challenges in having longer pivots but I doubt it's that hard to just stretch the already existing design.

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/11/18 10:12 AM.

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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771387
10/11/18 10:26 AM
10/11/18 10:26 AM
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I can't say whether longer is an engineering achievement, but imho it's worthy of a new action name and categorization. From physics alone it should result in a noticeable difference to the performer.

Clearly it's more substantial than the move from Yamaha GH to GH3, or even GH to NWX.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771393
10/11/18 10:40 AM
10/11/18 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by Nordomus

We must have heard different demos.

Agreed


+2.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771398
10/11/18 10:51 AM
10/11/18 10:51 AM
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Also the display is OLED which is a very nice touch. OLED doesn't require backlighting, so blacks really are black at any angle, and the light shouldn't be distracting.


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: TomLC] #2771441
10/11/18 12:30 PM
10/11/18 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by Nordomus

We must have heard different demos.

Agreed


+2.



so why don't one of you send me a link for the demo, that you heard for the current hp600 series and this new hp700 series?


P155
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: CyberGene] #2771445
10/11/18 12:46 PM
10/11/18 12:46 PM
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I watched again this clip at 2:13:



This improvisation was very familiar to me although I didn't know where from. Then I remembered it was the "all silver" demo from V-Piano:
V-Piano All Silver Demo

Wow, what a progress, right? I have always thought V-Piano sounded like cr*p but I've long forgotten about that. Comparing them side by side, V-Piano is simply awful, it's a bad joke of a piano sound! So there's an immense progress made with Roland modeled piano. I applaud them!

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/11/18 12:46 PM.

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Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: lolatu] #2771460
10/11/18 01:24 PM
10/11/18 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lolatu
Also the display is OLED which is a very nice touch. OLED doesn't require backlighting, so blacks really are black at any angle, and the light shouldn't be distracting.


Roland are really the masters of buzzwords :-)

The three new LX 700 models feature a monochrome 132 x 32 dot matrix display. The marketing genius here is using the OLED word to make it sound amazing. Today, OLED technology is being used on high-end displays on smartphones, TV and monitors. However, OLED dot matrix technology has been around for ages and is the standard technology for this type of displays. You will find such OLED dot displays in many consumer devices, from refrigerators and air conditioning control panels to portable mp3 players and hi-fi systems. To find a backlit dot matrix display one needs to get a device made in the 1990s or so..

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: arc7urus] #2771481
10/11/18 01:57 PM
10/11/18 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
To find a backlit dot matrix display one needs to get a device made in the 1990s or so..


I haven't found that to be the case. Most low-end OLED displays today still suffer from abhorrent burn-in, and LCDs are still prevalent, from smart thermostats to clocks to dive watches to other household appliances. Though we are seeing a few more OLEDs nowadays smile

I know the Nord Piano has recently moved to a monochrome OLD display, which is nice as it provides additional contrast on-stage (some Roland stage pianos have a very useful knob to adjust the backlight due to display angle contrast), and IMO a new OLED display looks a lot more striking and elegant than an LCD, so this change is welcome to me, if minor.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Gombessa] #2771489
10/11/18 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by arc7urus
To find a backlit dot matrix display one needs to get a device made in the 1990s or so..


I haven't found that to be the case. Most low-end OLED displays today still suffer from abhorrent burn-in, and LCDs are still prevalent, from smart thermostats to clocks to dive watches to other household appliances. Though we are seeing a few more OLEDs nowadays smile

I know the Nord Piano has recently moved to a monochrome OLD display, which is nice as it provides additional contrast on-stage (some Roland stage pianos have a very useful knob to adjust the backlight due to display angle contrast), and IMO a new OLED display looks a lot more striking and elegant than an LCD, so this change is welcome to me, if minor.


Well, a DP that uses technology designed after the 1990s is a cutting-edge device ;-) But, you are right. There are still plenty of LCD displays out there. But OLED dot-matrix displays like these have been around for quite a while: https://www.winstar.com.tw/products/oled-module/oled-character-display.html and seldom have have burn-in issues. The lower-end OLED higher-resolution colour graphical displays (not the dot matrix displays) do suffer from burn-in.

Anyway, it is always positive when DP manufacturers use better technology. Maybe these new LX models will even support USB Audio like the RD2000. That would be really welcome.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771491
10/11/18 02:35 PM
10/11/18 02:35 PM
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BTW I was disapointed to see that delivery time is december, so 2 more months of waiting frown

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: CyberGene] #2771494
10/11/18 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Wow, what a progress, right? I have always thought V-Piano sounded like cr*p but I've long forgotten about that. Comparing them side by side, V-Piano is simply awful, it's a bad joke of a piano sound! So there's an immense progress made with Roland modeled piano. I applaud them!


Thanks for the comparison! Indeed, the differences are striking.

Roland should really think about start developing and selling virtual modelled instruments, like PianoTeq as been doing. This would allow these DPs to be updated with new instruments and would also create an additional revenue stream for Roland. This is one of the big advantages of the modelling approach over the sample-based approach...

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771559
10/11/18 05:10 PM
10/11/18 05:10 PM
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Unfortunately still horrible artificial tone, but extremely natural behaviour, even better than in previous series. To my very dissapointment, Kawai still sound worlds better. That one sound cheap. As I said, behaviour is something what other companies are far behind, but tone itself still is weak and thin. Really strange, that after over 10 years after releasing Vpiano, improvement is so modest. Sampled pianos sound like dead ones compared to Roland, but Roland is life robot and its competition is dead human. Honestly, I was hoping more, but in terms of resonances, possibilities of playing, definitely, it's like real one. Pity that tone is just poor and very thin.

Also, I do not like sheet music holder being always on top of the front panel. Lx17 looked much better than lx708

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: arc7urus] #2771595
10/11/18 06:48 PM
10/11/18 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Grandman
Originally Posted by arc7urus
TIt is a pity that Roland has not to followed the artist's impression (check the section "Greater focus, fewer distractions" on Roland's LX700 page) and decided to put the controls on the fallboard. These new models would look amazing if all those knobs were out of sight.


Lack of a key cover is a non-issue to me. I like the controls within reach while playing so that adjustments can be made on the fly, as is done here at 2:40 and 4:04:

https://youtu.be/5l7U6XZ82vY?t=152

You can't do that with the controls at the cheek block area. The controls do not present an eyesore to me.


Sure! In that video the DP is being used not as an acoustic piano but as a stage piano. If changing settings during performance is part of your use case, then a DP such as the RD2000, MP11 or Kronos, and to some extent, the FP90, would be more appropriate. These DPs are designed for the performer to change registrations and other parameters while performing. But the LX models and most cabinet DPs are not designed for that purpose. DPs like the LX 700 are marketed as acoustic replacements. So, this is not about the controls being useful or not, but about the community of users that Roland intends to target. And from a practical perspective, I am not sure how easy is to press one of those buttons inadvertently while playing due to the absence of the fallboard.

The paradox is that Roland decided to include a number of features on the LX 708 to make it look and feel like an acoustic. This includes the fallboard/hinged keyboard lid that serves the only purpose of making it look like an acoustic (the other "lower" LX models do not have such keyboard cover but do have a control panel cover). But with that acoustic-like hinged lid, Roland was unable to add a control panel cover. So, the LX 708 ends up being the "acoustic replacement" that looks less like an acoustic...


Although I respect your desire for a controls cover and your points are valid for some, I beg to differ. I think the reason they do not have a pull over cover on the LX708 is because of the design of the traditional fallboard, which opens like that in an acoustic piano. I'm not sure how a sliding cover would retract with such a design as I'm not sure if any other piano manufacturer is doing it this way (thus the placement of the controls in the cheekblock area with other manufacturers), but I could be wrong. I'm not sure how the cover is implemented in Roland's lower lines, but I seem to recall those pianos did not incorporate a traditional fallboard. Nevertheless, I don't see a problem with the controls being where they are and within view (and prefer them within reach) so long as they are not an eyesore. I don't need to "fool" myself into believing the controls aren't there because they are. As long as I am able to lose myself in the feel, touch and tone of the piano, I will have experienced a realistic piano playing experience.

Last edited by Grandman; 10/11/18 06:56 PM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: arc7urus] #2771598
10/11/18 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Wow, what a progress, right? I have always thought V-Piano sounded like cr*p but I've long forgotten about that. Comparing them side by side, V-Piano is simply awful, it's a bad joke of a piano sound! So there's an immense progress made with Roland modeled piano. I applaud them!


Thanks for the comparison! Indeed, the differences are striking.

Roland should really think about start developing and selling virtual modelled instruments, like PianoTeq as been doing. This would allow these DPs to be updated with new instruments and would also create an additional revenue stream for Roland. This is one of the big advantages of the modelling approach over the sample-based approach...


I don't see this ever happening because it doesn't make much business sense for Roland to create a product beyond the expected planned obsolescence. They are not interested in selling software updates, but more interested in selling you a new DP. Thus, the interest by many on this forum even though we may already own an existing DP. wink

Last edited by Grandman; 10/11/18 06:52 PM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Grandman] #2771601
10/11/18 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandman

I don't see this ever happening because it doesn't make much business sense for Roland to create a product beyond the expected planned obsolescence. They are not interested in selling software updates, but more interested in selling you a new DP. Thus, the interest by many on this forum even though we may already own an existing DP. wink


Well, it would still be obsolete. For all the "infinte adjustability" touted by the V-Piano engine, I don't think there's a way to get it to sound like this new "PureAcoustic" engine, the modeling processes are just different and more advanced now. Just as all the V-Piano pianos sound like variations on the same theme, I suspect the PureAcoustic is similar in that it's got a particular characteristic set in stone, and you can adjust around the edges. The next iteration in Roland's 2020/2021 pianos will undoubtedly be more advanced and it won't be possible to duplicate it in the older engine, so those who want an upgrade will have to do so with hardware smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Gombessa] #2771621
10/11/18 07:29 PM
10/11/18 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Grandman

I don't see this ever happening because it doesn't make much business sense for Roland to create a product beyond the expected planned obsolescence. They are not interested in selling software updates, but more interested in selling you a new DP. Thus, the interest by many on this forum even though we may already own an existing DP. wink


Well, it would still be obsolete. For all the "infinte adjustability" touted by the V-Piano engine, I don't think there's a way to get it to sound like this new "PureAcoustic" engine, the modeling processes are just different and more advanced now. Just as all the V-Piano pianos sound like variations on the same theme, I suspect the PureAcoustic is similar in that it's got a particular characteristic set in stone, and you can adjust around the edges. The next iteration in Roland's 2020/2021 pianos will undoubtedly be more advanced and it won't be possible to duplicate it in the older engine, so those who want an upgrade will have to do so with hardware smile


Agree.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Grandman] #2771702
10/12/18 03:14 AM
10/12/18 03:14 AM
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Doug M. Online content
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Originally Posted by Grandman
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Wow, what a progress, right? I have always thought V-Piano sounded like cr*p but I've long forgotten about that. Comparing them side by side, V-Piano is simply awful, it's a bad joke of a piano sound! So there's an immense progress made with Roland modeled piano. I applaud them!


Thanks for the comparison! Indeed, the differences are striking.

Roland should really think about start developing and selling virtual modelled instruments, like PianoTeq as been doing. This would allow these DPs to be updated with new instruments and would also create an additional revenue stream for Roland. This is one of the big advantages of the modelling approach over the sample-based approach...


I don't see this ever happening because it doesn't make much business sense for Roland to create a product beyond the expected planned obsolescence. They are not interested in selling software updates, but more interested in selling you a new DP. Thus, the interest by many on this forum even though we may already own an existing DP. wink


The issue with this is that Pianoteq makes it work by releasing lots of models --- thus differentiating itself and providing quite a barrier to other modeled piano VST makes to gain traction in the market. For Roland to compete, because they don't have that many models to offer, they'd have to provide a competitive product (much higher quality piano) at a lower cost per unit. A good example of how hard this is: Microsoft have tried for quite a while to compete with Google on the browser front and the search engine front---despite having lots of money to throw at both, Microsoft have failed to eat into those markets. They also failed at mobile phones. Also, if Roland release a modeled VST piano, why would anybody buy the Roland piano? They'd buy a VPC1. So Roland would also have to develop a piano controller first. Another thing---it would force Roland to develop equal or better actions than Kawai and Yamaha in order to differentiate their hardware pianos; whereas, at the moment, piano modelling is giving them a fair chunk of differentiation on its own, even if some people don't like the sound.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771703
10/12/18 03:20 AM
10/12/18 03:20 AM
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I'd still buy normal digital piano even if they would release VST one. I want to get complete package with great speaker setup, sound projection, keyboard, interface etc. This is different market for different people.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771705
10/12/18 03:24 AM
10/12/18 03:24 AM
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Nobody quite knows which piano Roland base their modelling techniques on, but many suspect a Steinway D or similar.
Pianoteq 'D' doesn't sound dissimilar with it's metallic overtones, which are hard to get rid of.

I never use it.

Last edited by peterws; 10/12/18 03:25 AM.

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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771706
10/12/18 03:32 AM
10/12/18 03:32 AM
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Nordomus Online content
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It's definitely closest to Steinwey

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771709
10/12/18 03:44 AM
10/12/18 03:44 AM
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CyberGene Online content
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BTW Roland used to shy away from recreating any particular real piano with their modeling and Jay confirmed Roland do this on purpose, combining best features of various pianos thus coming up with an entirely new piano.

I guess they realized it’s not gonna work well with customers who expect real piano brand names so this time they have directly referred to Hamburg and New York, i.e. Steinway.

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/12/18 03:46 AM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771710
10/12/18 03:47 AM
10/12/18 03:47 AM
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Yeah it's not 1 to 1 of course. And they do not aim it to be 1 to 1 and I think that is good, it has it's own characteristics.

Last edited by Nordomus; 10/12/18 03:47 AM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2771712
10/12/18 04:35 AM
10/12/18 04:35 AM
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Online content
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
I'd still buy normal digital piano even if they would release VST one. I want to get complete package with great speaker setup, sound projection, keyboard, interface etc. This is different market for different people.


Right now, I believe there are 4 different market segments:
1) Those who afford the cabinet pianos with the unique speaker setup etc
2) Those who buy stage pianos for gigging
3) Those who buy portable pianos for home or gigging
4) Those who buy piano controllers as a cheaper way to get the best action with VST.

1) is not a marketplace Roland want customers to purchase Roland VST piano, as then users can buy the Yamaha or Kawai product and just add the Roland VST piano.

2) Again, now I can buy the MP7 or Nord piano 4 or the Yamaha CP and just get Roland VST piano for the modeled sound.

3) Why would you buy an FP90 if you could get a Kawai ES8 or P515 or VPC1 and Roland VST? Some people would prefer action or sounds on Yamaha, Kawai, Nord etc., and take those products plus the Roland VST piano---Roland would lose hardware business it gained just because users liked the Roland modeled piano sound.

4) Of those who buy VST plus controller pianos, how many of them would buy into Roland VST piano? Given that the Pianoteq VST market is made up of modern Grand pianos, vintage pianos, e-pianos, percussion instruments, harpsichords etc, would Roland get much out of offering 4 modeled pianos? Given that in this market, customers who have Pianoteq are used to the sound and will have brand loyalty!

Roland would have to be sure that their hardware pianos out-compete Yamaha and Kawai in areas that currently Roland are not out-competing Kawai and Yamaha in---i.e., to ensure that they don't lose customers who like the Roland modeled piano sound.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2771720
10/12/18 06:18 AM
10/12/18 06:18 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Online content
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Something to have in mind is Roland's modeled approach might not be easily portable to a regular PC. Maybe they have dedicated hardware that is much more capable than a PC for that particular task.

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/12/18 06:18 AM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: CyberGene] #2771721
10/12/18 06:21 AM
10/12/18 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Something to have in mind is Roland's modeled approach might not be easily portable to a regular PC. Maybe they have dedicated hardware that is much more capable than a PC for that particular task.

Very good point, it might not be that easy as some people imagine.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2771726
10/12/18 06:35 AM
10/12/18 06:35 AM
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South Wales
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Colin Miles Online content OP
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Something to have in mind is Roland's modeled approach might not be easily portable to a regular PC. Maybe they have dedicated hardware that is much more capable than a PC for that particular task.

Very good point, it might not be that easy as some people imagine.

Indeed - with all the Windows guff going on in the background!


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
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