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Re: What To Learn? [Re: Michael P Walsh] #2771317
10/11/18 06:38 AM
10/11/18 06:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 173
England
Lillith Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael P Walsh
I doubt if 0.1% of the population who wish to take up the piano would be the slightest bit interested. I'm not so sure inflicting it on others is a humane thing to do though. I tried your method. It's junk. As a method it's absolute garbage.


I wish you'd stop prevaricating there Michael and tell us what you really think!


Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?
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Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771322
10/11/18 06:59 AM
10/11/18 06:59 AM
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Lol! It had to be said but then again I do have actual experience of the approach. It's a practical yet highly technical approach to learning the keyboard, the key signatures, arpeggios - the building blocks of music. It misses out music. Unfortunately that last point is all important. The vast majority of people would just give up after a week. 99.9% after a month. You are left with no scales, no arpeggios, no music. They've all given up to go watch X-factor. I'm not saying it can't work. I'm saying it won't work for 99.9% of people. To pretend otherwise is just delusional.

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771330
10/11/18 07:28 AM
10/11/18 07:28 AM
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England
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What everyone says looks so eminently sensible in the face of the original post that I was wondering if I'm alone in thinking that the OP might be pulling our collective chain ? i.e (for those with English as a second language) whether the OP is joking??? smile


Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?
Roland FP30 in white
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771335
10/11/18 07:55 AM
10/11/18 07:55 AM
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Florida
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Maybe we should all assume the OP is honest and stop responding to this thread..,!unless someone wants to add to the exercise plan. IF the OP decides to add to/change the original plan, he should feel welcome to come back with questions


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Lillith] #2771350
10/11/18 08:40 AM
10/11/18 08:40 AM
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Orange County, California
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Originally Posted by Lillith
What everyone says looks so eminently sensible in the face of the original post that I was wondering if I'm alone in thinking that the OP might be pulling our collective chain ? i.e (for those with English as a second language) whether the OP is joking??? smile


This is exactly what I was thinking when I first read the post. I can't believe a word of it smile


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Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771371
10/11/18 09:49 AM
10/11/18 09:49 AM
Joined: May 2013
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You had me at "hey, everyone".

Originally Posted by Finn1996
haha no I am not scared off, I'm actually loving all the responses, positive or negative, conversation is good! (shout out to dmd and Moo for being extra positive!). I'm realizing now that perhaps I should've better explained my approach and given a little more background on my goals and what I hope to achieve, so I will do that, since everyone seems to think my system looks terrible lol


First, I would like to say that I wasn't thinking this originally, but now after reading responses, although I do agree with basically everything posted, I'm also aware that there has to be a ton of bias from each poster (not necessarily a bad thing). I'm going with the assumption that everyone learns their own way, and since they learned that way, they will naturally think that that's the "best" or "only" way to do it. I kind of carry the same logic, as I want to develop my own method to teach others, after I prove that it works on myself. I also think there might be a lot of people here who were classically trained and they definitely might think that's the only way more than anyone. My goals in music are different from "the classical way", so if there are people who disagree with going against that way, I don't really know what to tell you lol.

Next, to anyone saying I need a teacher, I really don't think I do. I think I'm capable of learning on my own. I was thinking of seeing a teacher at some point down the road just to check to make sure I'm doing things right physically (posture, fingering, hand positioning, etc.). Other than the physical aspect of playing, I don't think I need a teacher. Why would I pay money for a teacher when I can use plenty of resources from online (Youtube, online PDF's, etc.) to compile my own "syllabus" that works for me personally? I've had vocal coaches and I find that teachers like to push their own view of things onto students, which is something I'm trying to avoid as a student. I think learning music and learning piano can be such a personal experience without a teacher. I'm not at all saying that having a teacher is bad, I think a lot of people could/will benefit from a teacher for sure, I just really don't have any interest in paying money and searching for the right teacher (just in case I find some and don't like them or what they teach or their teaching style), seems like a lot of time and money wasted on something I can just figure out myself and figure out a way that works best for me personally. I think if I need a teacher for a particular concept, I'm sure Youtube can give me all the help I need.

To those saying I need to play songs and gear my learning towards songs/pieces instead of learning music theory, I personally disagree.. strongly lol. I actually tried this first, and it didn't work for very long (but maybe I was trying things that were too hard lol). I'm a huge fan of C418's Minecraft Soundtrack, and I would love to be able to play every song from it. So, since everyone suggests learning by playing songs, thats what I tried to do. It was working, but overall, it was more frustrating than anything. Sure, now I can play a song or two from the Minecraft soundtrack, but I really wasn't LEARNING anything. I was just following along with the notes on a Youtube video. I was learning the song, but was I aware of the notes I was hitting? Not really. Was I paying attention to the chords I was playing? No. Was I paying attention to the RELATIONSHIPS between all the notes and all the chords? Literally not at all. I was literally just following someone elses playing, that's all. Learning songs is cool if that's all you want to do with music/piano. Learning songs is probably the last thing I'm trying to focus on, I'm trying to learn music theory by playing the piano (we'll get to this).

A lot of you are also saying that my practice routine looks like the most boring thing in existence and I will quit because of it. I don't really think so, but you all are entitled to your own opinions of course! Allow me to explain though. I thought learning songs was a boring and messy approach. My two reasons for this are: 1) You have to start off easy and slowly play harder and harder songs. Easy songs are boring. I don't want to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, I would rather just play scales. 2) Learning by playing songs doesn't always mean you will play songs you like, ESPECIALLY if you have a teacher! If I'm gonna learn by playing songs, I would want to play songs I know and love. I don't really want to play easy beginner nursery rhyme songs. I don't want to play Mozart's symphonies down the road. As far as songs go, I want to have the music theory knowledge to hear a song, then figure it out on my own. When you don't know music theory, and you're just learning it along the way, you learn things out of order just as they happen, that's way too disorganized for my taste. And when you're just learning songs, you have to go online and figure out the key, then you have to learn all the chords, etc. But if you already know music theory, you can figure the key out by the notes you hear, and you can assume the possible chords by the key, etc. Would you not agree that learning music theory first would make learning songs a whole lot easier and faster? Because that's the way I see it. I like to learn the rules of the game before I play.


So, this brings me to my background and my goals. As I have said in passing, my main goal is to learn music theory by playing the piano (I think most of you have the opposite view? Learn songs and learn music theory along the way of doing that? Yes?). I don't (necessarily) want to learn classical music. I don't want to learn a method book. I want to learn music theory. I want to learn the bones of the whole skeleton so that I can learn to play all kinds of songs and music. My method focuses on learning all aspects of music theory, and FOCUSING HARD on little increments one at a time (i.e. spending an entire week on one scale). I'm currently in college for the Music Industry program (I'm only 22), and one of my teachers says, "Do not practice it until you get it right, practice it until you can never get it wrong". I thought this was amazing, and I'm trying to make it the overall theme for my method, so I also took a step further with a sister quote, "Do not learn it until you know it, learn it until you cannot forget it". I want to spend a week on each scale/concept so that I will never, ever forget each one. But not only am I learning music theory, I'm also playing the piano! So, yes I am "boringly" playing the same scale for a whole week, but learning piano along with the theory allows me to spice it up: play it with my left hand, play it with my right hand, play it with both hands at the same time, play it all the way up the keyboard with both hands, etc. This way I'm learning music theory and how to physically play the piano at the same time. Hopefully now you are seeing how the method is supposed to work. ENGRAVE the music theory in your head, and have some fun with it by playing the same thing in a variety of different ways. You guys are saying that learning this way is boring, but to me its fun! Breaking it down into small, achievable goals is fun to me, it makes me feel like I'm actually learning music, and actually progressing in my learning. Learning songs made me practice at random times, made me give up quicker than I wanted to, etc. Organizing it out like this gives me peace in my order. I've set aside certain time increments for each concept, and that makes me happy. If I'm just playing songs, all I could say is "ah I don't really know much about music, but I can play these 20 songs really well". That's not very useful at all in my opinion. So, using this method, I think in about a year or so from now I will know all major scales, all versions of minor scales, most chords and inversions, all intervals, etc. Do you know how valuable that is? Do I have to stress how valuable that is compared to just knowing 50 songs? I'm sure those who are well trained in music know what I'm talking about. I think my method might be "boring" at first, but it will ultimately make me a music superhuman, which is what I'm really interested in: mastery. Once I achieve mastery of music theory, it will make what I really want to do IMMENSELY easier: creating music. You cannot have an easy time creating music by learning a method book, by learning your favourite songs, by learning everything Mozart wrote, etc. It doesn't work like that.


So, now that I've more fully explained my method that I'm creating, I would like to ask again: Does anyone have any more concepts/details to add to my original list? Every time I search something like "list of all chords", every list is different, some are unorganized, some exclude some chords, etc., so I thought it would be easier to ask piano people lol maybe I was wrong? Idk, I think I've started a good conversation here. If you don't feel like posting in the thread, that's totally cool, you can just PM your opinions or links, PDF's, videos, etc., that have helped you.






Way too long! Seems like you've got id down. Let us know how it works out smile.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

Working On
Debussy Clair De Lune

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771374
10/11/18 09:58 AM
10/11/18 09:58 AM
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Owen Sound, Ontario
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For the chords; above the triads are all the extensions ... 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th. You are only now missing 6th and major 7. Think in scale of 3rds.

The fastest way to learn a new song is to have someone show you how to play it. The next fastest is to start learning it.

If you just want to learn theory your method is fine. If you want to learn to play, it stinks. Like having all your ducks in a row before you start anything. It's the long road , and more experienced players know this. Theory has very slow pay back to affect ability to play. Your methods logically seem to make sense until you know better. I sense you feel you know better already, which I don't really get. There are proven methods that work better is all.

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771390
10/11/18 10:34 AM
10/11/18 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Finn1996


I think you're explaining what I'm imagining to be the end goal. I want to create music, and I guess I just believe that knowing music theory will make creating chord progressions and understanding relationships in the sounds much easier. Whenever I try to write a song, I'm always stumped because I don't know what works with chords and melodies, etc., and the process is frustrating and takes way longer than it could. That's one of my main inspirations to learn music theory, I want to understand all these things, it allows me to see the choices and what works and what doesn't.

Learning with one sense isn't as effective as learning with multiple. I believe your advice to becoming really familiar with the sounds of things is extremely crucial, but it's a lot easier to find and understand those sounds when I've read about them and can put a name to them as well as hear them. That's the overall point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to memorize the boring, redundant stuff systematically to graduate to more advanced playing and understanding, like the stuff you're mentioning.


The study of theories is endless as musical creativity. There is no beginning not is their an end.

I can study color theory in painting endlessly, but it does not develop the brush moments necessary to create an image that I visualize in my mind, nor does it develop my ability to see an image in my mind that I wish to translate into those brush strokes. A bit of color theory is helpful, but bear in mind, artists ignore theory all the time because theory is incomplete, contradictory, and not nature.

You can study Ted William's baseball swing and all the theory that he used to create it, but at the end it was worthless to Mickey Mantle because it wasn't him. If you want to create music, you need to develop your creative, expressive skills which are no where to be found in the study of theory. So you need to ask yourself, do you want to study music as done would study history, or do you want to create music. The two are entirely different in skill sets.

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771506
10/11/18 03:20 PM
10/11/18 03:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 31
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Finn1996 Offline OP
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This place is ridiculous, I 100% regret posting here lol every answer is just "you need to get a teacher or good luck" or "there are tons of proven methods out there that work", yet not a single person can share a link or point me in any direction. Don't just tell me that there are methods already out there, show me where I can find them, otherwise your comment is useless. Jesus Christ. I guess I'll go look for this [censored] myself then.

Thanks for the help.

Last edited by Finn1996; 10/11/18 03:21 PM.
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771514
10/11/18 03:57 PM
10/11/18 03:57 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,629
Victoria, BC
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Originally Posted by Finn1996
This place is ridiculous, I 100% regret posting here lol every answer is just "you need to get a teacher or good luck" or "there are tons of proven methods out there that work", yet not a single person can share a link or point me in any direction. Don't just tell me that there are methods already out there, show me where I can find them, otherwise your comment is useless. Jesus Christ. I guess I'll go look for this [censored] myself then.

Thanks for the help.


Adding profanity to your rant does little to encourage others to want to help or offer their opinions. This is not the place for that kind of language.

Funny that you should be able to voice your opinion, but decry the opinions of others because they don't agree with yours.


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: What To Learn? [Re: BruceD] #2771522
10/11/18 04:11 PM
10/11/18 04:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 31
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Finn1996 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BruceD


Adding profanity to your rant does little to encourage others to want to help or offer their opinions. This is not the place for that kind of language.


None of you are helping me anyway!!!!!! Y'all love to critique and share your own biased opinions but can't offer me any resources or practice regimens or anything. What kind of reaction do you think you're gonna get when all you're doing is bashing all my ideas without offering any helpful ideas in return???


Originally Posted by BruceD

Funny that you should be able to voice your opinion, but decry the opinions of others because they don't agree with yours.


So when I do it its wrong but when you guys do the exact same thing to me its ok? Word, sounds good.


Since no one is willing to help me with my ideas, then let me rephrase the question. What should I do to learn piano and music theory? How should I practice (keeping in mind I can't even read notation)? Can you offer any resources or any helpful threads on this forum? If nobody can simply answer these questions, I'm out.

Last edited by Finn1996; 10/11/18 04:13 PM.
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771543
10/11/18 04:46 PM
10/11/18 04:46 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,579
Florida
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Sorry you couldn't find anything helpful in 3 pages of comments. I wish I could direct you but I'm just an adult beginner also. FWIW I bought a theory book called Tonal Harmony - it's used in college classes. Maybe that'll be useful for you. This is a community of adult beginners and not so beginner beginners, and everyone tries to help based on their experiences. They've given me useful tips and I've passed some on to others who have found them helpful. No world experts here and nobody has the ability to predict exactly the answer you're looking for. Certainly the aggressive tone won't win you supporters and won't make anyone more likely to want to help though.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

Working On
Debussy Clair De Lune

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771556
10/11/18 05:09 PM
10/11/18 05:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 465
Istanbul
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IosPlayer Offline
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Hi Finn, check this out: https://www.piano-keyboard-guide.com/keyboard-chords.html

What I find odd is that you are asking for specifics that are easily findable for someone with a college education, like the list of chords above. There are about 135 or so, I believe. So now you have all the chords you will ever need.

I agree that the posters here are having a knee jerk reaction, but I also wonder why you are asking, you seem to have a great plan for your method, you have already outlined at least a year's work, why not just get down to it and see what happens. You really don't need any more info at this point of your musical self education.

People here are pretty nice. They want to spare you, but you are not asking to be spared, but again, if you have come this far, if all the info is readily available by googling, if you have enough confidence to begin a " new" method in depth, if you don't wish to waste money on a teacher, if a teacher is not necessary in your case, okay! But consider this, you are asking for information that most students have acquired by spending hard earned money on teachers and education. If you abjure what teachers have to offer why are you glomming info that people have gone to teachers to acquire?

I could give you a lot of ideas.... How bout this: 135, 1235 1356. 17 137 1357 13567 12357 159 1359 13569 251 2561 351 3561 369, etc. Get it? Well, I had to pay money to learn that from a great teacher. Of course her teaching about how to utilize that on maybe a dozen levels has helped me create my own music for almost fifty years. Is it fair that I give you that for nothing even if you could understand it on all those levels? I certainly believe in your right to do whatever you want to do musically, but please do not negate teachers for yourself and look to get their wisdom free of charge. Hypocritical and unfair.

In addition, you are a psychology major. Certainly you can see that you are engaged in a kind of masterbation here with your long explanations of who you are and your way of doing things. Just do it, bro. Seriously, you do not require human help as far as I understand you, best of luck, seriously.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771564
10/11/18 05:20 PM
10/11/18 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Finn1996

Since no one is willing to help me with my ideas, then let me rephrase the question. What should I do to learn piano and music theory? How should I practice (keeping in mind I can't even read notation)?

This is what you need to get:

https://www.amazon.com/John-Thompsons-Easiest-Piano-Course/dp/0877180121

BTW, I'm totally serious. Look inside its pages.

I started with it, as did my friend who started learning piano at 60. He's now playing late-intermediate-advanced music.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771574
10/11/18 05:50 PM
10/11/18 05:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 465
Istanbul
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IosPlayer Offline
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Finn, perhaps I was a bit harsh. You seem to be asking now for help from a beginner's perspective. If that's the case just reread the thread and find a teacher. Don't overthink it, you'll be fine.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771578
10/11/18 06:00 PM
10/11/18 06:00 PM
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Yes we got into piano world ww3 again as expected.

We had all this before mr finn so dont take it personal, the same people say the same things in every post and normally new people get scared and never come back.

Good on for fighting, I support you in the war. It should be ok in beginner forum to have people being treated a bit nicer often it is hard to know what to do when starting something.

You did have a good question which is what method book would help.

I think people have used Alfred all in one piano course here and there is a long thread of many adult beginners. It looks like a good introduction book for adults so check that out.

I think from my own piano learning that scales are something relatively later and were not introduced until a few months of learning. I think if you followed the course you can learn the basics first.

There are theory books that you can learn in graded exam. I am not sure how easy this is to learn from a book so perhaps you need to find a more interactive version.

Good luck !

Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771581
10/11/18 06:10 PM
10/11/18 06:10 PM
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Posts: 465
Istanbul
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Sorry, I don't understand, Moo. Why is this piano ww3? I am new here, too.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771596
10/11/18 06:48 PM
10/11/18 06:48 PM
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Piano Wars WW3...by le moo smile

- Normal starts with an innocent query from a new poster or an older poster that involves a) not learning with a teacher or b) following a 'non-piano world approved' method (e.g. not following a method book etc.).

- This is the trigger and starts a post series of by many posters stating helpful posts such as. GET A TEACHER.. and GET A TEACHER... and GET A TEACHER.

- There is a lot of i got a teacher, i am amazoid, this is only way to learn.

- This is followed by a backlash from people who dont get a teacher. Who say you can learn otherwise.

- THis is then followed by but you cant get amazoid without a teacher.

- Later it goes into low level violence and scapegoating followed by the setting up of local miliitias on each front.

- Eventually it leads to border wars with civilians and then full out warfare with tanks / submarines and later nuclear weapons.

- Then there is a break for a week.

- People regroup in the ceasefire and they wait for another poor victim here that posts another trigger post and we have another piano world war.

- Scary place X

Last edited by Moo :); 10/11/18 06:52 PM.
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771604
10/11/18 07:07 PM
10/11/18 07:07 PM
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Posts: 465
Istanbul
That's really good, Moo. I didn't realize having a good teacher was so controversial! Our poster is 22. When I was in my early twenties I tried to learn to improvise on my own. I had been playing since age 9 with about five years of home lessons. I know some can do it naturally, but I think they operate from a "joy of playing" place., not from a technical regimen. Well, I tried for several years and I just couldn't do it till I found a great teacher with a technique that resonated with my zennish mind. My teacher added her energy to mine. I always played my best at lessons the first few years. It was a perfect environment to risk everything. Going it on your own is pretty lonely, especially when you don't have the first clue as to what it is all about. Thinking you know how to accomplish something when you don't is an affliction of youth, don't you think? And when one goes down in flames at an early age and no one is around to help you crawl out of the wreck it is pretty tough, IMHO. Few rise into the skies again without a mentor.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: What To Learn? [Re: Finn1996] #2771631
10/11/18 08:16 PM
10/11/18 08:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,835
Orange County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bSharp(C)yclist  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,835
Orange County, California
Originally Posted by Finn1996
This place is ridiculous, I 100% regret posting here lol every answer is just "you need to get a teacher or good luck" or "there are tons of proven methods out there that work", yet not a single person can share a link or point me in any direction. Don't just tell me that there are methods already out there, show me where I can find them, otherwise your comment is useless. Jesus Christ. I guess I'll go look for this [censored] myself then.

Thanks for the help.


You can try posting the same question on Reddit or the Piano Technique Discussion group on Facebook if you are looking for different opinions.

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/243421769180517/


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