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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773741
10/18/18 07:15 PM
10/18/18 07:15 PM
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Pete14 Offline
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PureAcoustic Modelling?

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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Pete14] #2773774
10/19/18 02:17 AM
10/19/18 02:17 AM
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Posts: 1,104
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by Pete14
PureAcoustic Modelling?


Yeah, Roland like to give their versions: names!

Pianoteq: V1 (vs1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc); V2 (vs2.1, 2.2, 2.3); V3 etc

Roland: Vs 1 - advanced SA (Structured Adaptive) technology (RD1000); Vs 2 - V-piano technology (V-piano and V-piano grand; RD2000); Vs 3 - SuperNatural modelling (HP; LX7/17; FP90; RD2000); Vs 4 - PureAcoustic Modelling (LX700 series).

To make matters more confusing, SuperNatural sound engine was also a term they used for a hybrid of sampling and modelling used to power instruments like the RD800.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773783
10/19/18 05:33 AM
10/19/18 05:33 AM
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Nordomus Offline
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Gotta love Roland for that... :]

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773787
10/19/18 05:46 AM
10/19/18 05:46 AM
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What's gonna be the next version? VeryMusical modelling?


FP-90
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Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Arnes] #2773788
10/19/18 05:48 AM
10/19/18 05:48 AM
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Nordomus Offline
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Originally Posted by Arnes
What's gonna be the next version? VeryMusical modelling?

"REALLY Pure Acoustic Modelling" TM

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773790
10/19/18 05:51 AM
10/19/18 05:51 AM
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Pete14 Offline
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We need an expert in PureAcoustic B.S. to chime in. We have an expert in these cutting-edge-state-of-the-art technologies right here at the forum, but he’s gone missing! grin

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2773791
10/19/18 05:55 AM
10/19/18 05:55 AM
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Pete14 Offline
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Arnes
What's gonna be the next version? VeryMusical modelling?

"REALLY Pure Acoustic Modelling" TM


Yes, I’ve been wondering about the purity levels of PAM; perhaps Kawai James can check at that event thingy. What if it’s only 30% pure and the rest is just fluff?

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773797
10/19/18 06:37 AM
10/19/18 06:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 482
Tennessee
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brooster Offline
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Tennessee
The new Rolands

[Linked Image]

Look like the Roland FP-90

[Linked Image]

Last edited by brooster; 10/19/18 06:44 AM.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773798
10/19/18 06:43 AM
10/19/18 06:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,499
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Same Dutch design agency, I gather.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773801
10/19/18 06:50 AM
10/19/18 06:50 AM
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Posts: 482
Tennessee
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Tennessee
Interface on the new models
[Linked Image]
looks like a FP-90
[Linked Image]


The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773813
10/19/18 07:37 AM
10/19/18 07:37 AM
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Pete14 Offline
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Are you saying they simply stuck an FP-90 into a fake-wood enclosure and called it a day?
Well, you are wrong, Sir!

This state-of-the-art design (f@%k touch screens) took several years!
What are you going to tell me next, that ‘PAM is a tweaked version of SNM’?

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2773815
10/19/18 07:49 AM
10/19/18 07:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 397
UK
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
I've noticed something very troubling in LX 708 specs, piano designer is missing Damper Resonance parameter.And there is no ambience effect as well.


Is there a string resonance?

Strictly speaking, if it's a modelled set of resonators then the distinction between what has conventionally been called 'damper' and 'string' resonance is rather arbitrary and unrealistic. The energy transfer between string x and string y is going to be the same regardless of whether the damper is up because the note is held or the pedal is holding it up!

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773828
10/19/18 08:16 AM
10/19/18 08:16 AM
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Nordomus Offline
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True that, although they have always write damper resonance in specs.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Bambers] #2773834
10/19/18 08:55 AM
10/19/18 08:55 AM
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Southwestern Ontario
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Originally Posted by Bambers
Originally Posted by Nordomus
I've noticed something very troubling in LX 708 specs, piano designer is missing Damper Resonance parameter.And there is no ambience effect as well.


Is there a string resonance?

Strictly speaking, if it's a modelled set of resonators then the distinction between what has conventionally been called 'damper' and 'string' resonance is rather arbitrary and unrealistic. The energy transfer between string x and string y is going to be the same regardless of whether the damper is up because the note is held or the pedal is holding it up!
I am not sure that is entirely accurate.

The energy transfer from one note to another note when both dampers are raised is not the same as the energy transfer from one note to the entire keyboard when all the dampers are raised. Try it out on an acoustic piano - huge difference in sound.

The difference is in the energy distribution. Take C4/C5 for example. Playing C4 while holding down C5 will excite the all the partials of C5 with the available energy. Playing C4 while all the dampers are raised makes that energy available to all the relevent partials in the entire piano, thereby reducing the energy available to the partials of C5.

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773835
10/19/18 08:58 AM
10/19/18 08:58 AM
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I think he meant that it's all string resonance in the end, but different strings smile

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773844
10/19/18 09:40 AM
10/19/18 09:40 AM
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I think this is a matter of semantics, to a point. You could model the response of a string with the dampers down, or you can assume it will be zero and be done with it... I'm not a physicist or a piano engineer, so I don't know whether the energy carries over from muted strings to the unmuted ones...but intuitively I would suspect the energy is carried into the muted strings and absorbed into the dampers, rather than bypassing the muted strings entirely and flowing only into the undamped strings?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Nordomus] #2773851
10/19/18 09:53 AM
10/19/18 09:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,104
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Doug M.  Offline
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Posts: 1,104
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by Arnes
What's gonna be the next version? VeryMusical modelling?

"REALLY Pure Acoustic Modelling" TM


What is curious about the phrase Pure Acoustic Modeling is that it implies you can have a 'dirty' acoustic modeling, and this is the pre-watershed Acoustic Modeling wink


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773858
10/19/18 10:34 AM
10/19/18 10:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,357
Twin Cities
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TonyB Offline
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Twin Cities
Just a little while ago, I got a good sense of perspective on all this discussion. I live in a 72 unit condo association, 3 floors + underground heated garage, 24 units per floor. This neighbor, Leo lives down the hall from me. I had heard that he had sold or traded his Baldwin acoustic baby grand and gotten a new piano because he didn't like bothering the neighbors when he played, even during the day. I saw him and asked about his new piano, so he showed it to me.

It is a brand spankin' new Roland GP-607. He is a retired school teacher from up north of the Twin Cities where we currently live, very quiet, reserved guy. He knows absolutely nothing about digital pianos, but asked around his piano playing friends and came up with recommendations to get either a Yamaha or a Roland. He got the GP-607, knows nothing about the sound engine or keybed, but just liked it and wanted to be able to use headphones. He typically likes to buy once, get it right, rather than pinch pennies and not be satisfied with the result. He and I are alike that way.

If I were on the market today for a decent digital piano, I am sure I would be perfectly happy with the model he chose. I typically play a "cocktail" style using fakebook leadsheets and coming up with my own arrangements. I played several standards on his piano and really enjoyed the experience. I looked the piano up when I got home a few minutes ago, and it apparently has that PHA-50 keybed. It felt fine to me. In fact, I like it much better than the keybed that his old Baldwin had.

I seriously doubt that Leo cares anything about all the technical aspects of his new piano, but instead just enjoys the playing experience. I sure did, and think he chose wisely. I would be very surprised if he decides a few years down the road that his piano is obsolete and that he needs whatever the shiny new technology of that year is. He would have kept his Baldwin except that he occasionally got complaints from neighbors when they could hear him play even during the day. He plays well enough, but some people are just complainers.

Put in that perspective, which is where I suspect most of the typical customers of these pianos are, and suddenly all that matters is what the customers' playing experiences are. I told Leo a few things about his new piano, but I doubt he understood any of it, and I suspect he is happier in the long run for it. He bought into a solid, reliable brand and should have trouble-free use of his piano for many years.

Tony




Last edited by TonyB; 10/19/18 10:35 AM.
Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773864
10/19/18 10:56 AM
10/19/18 10:56 AM
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Well I like to know as much as I can about everything I buy smile Not only pianos but obviously pianos get most of my attention in that regard. And I feel like I can appretiate even more things when I know how they work and how amazing it is that they work the way they do smile

Re: New Roland Pianos [Re: Colin Miles] #2773918
10/19/18 03:00 PM
10/19/18 03:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,531
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Apparently Leo knew nothing about digital pianos and decided to play safe and purchase one of the most expensive ones. He’s a guy used to paying the price of a typical acoustic grand and so is assuming it’s perfectly OK to pay that much for a digital. That still doesn’t mean anything. He’s still rather not having a clue about digital pianos nor is his rather uninformed choice making it any more logical. Even if he tested different digitals in the store, there are so many things a guy not familiar with digital pianos would miss easily.

So why bring Leo? What’s the moral of the story?

Last edited by CyberGene; 10/19/18 03:02 PM.

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Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
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