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flange spacer #2766797
09/21/18 04:27 AM
09/21/18 04:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline OP
Full Member
jinorden  Offline OP
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J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
I never used one and don't understand how it works. Especially on Steinways. Can someone enlighten me?

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Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2766905
09/21/18 03:11 PM
09/21/18 03:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,595
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,595
New Hampshire
Show a photo? There are different types. Steinways don't use one..you have to know how to paper the flanges properly.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2766909
09/21/18 03:24 PM
09/21/18 03:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline OP
Full Member
jinorden  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
Hi, Peter,
I do, but I hate getting the action in and out and I don't have great vision, so making hammers align with strings is a pain.

Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2766960
09/21/18 08:36 PM
09/21/18 08:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
I hate getting the action in and out spacing hammers too. But to do tone-regulation properly, the hammers and strings must be meticulously spaced and mated. Steinways are among the slowest designs for this task. It helps if you raise the let-off screws so the hammers can be blocked against the strings when spacing and phasing.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2766964
09/21/18 09:10 PM
09/21/18 09:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 510
Chernobieff Piano Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chernobieff Piano  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 510
I must be crazy, but i love aligning hammers to the strings. The trick is to travel the hammers on the bench precisely ( i have a homemade jig for this), then with the action in the piano (with the flange screws slightly loosened) I use another custom tool ( a lathe chisel sharped to a fine point on a stand) then tap, tap, tap, and check with a lifter and move to the next.
I think it takes me 1 beer to do the whole set.
-chris

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 09/21/18 09:10 PM.

Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: flange spacer [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2766967
09/21/18 09:26 PM
09/21/18 09:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,726
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
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BDB  Offline
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B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,726
Oakland
A trick that I learned here is that if you want the hammers to block against the string for alignment and mating, put a strip of bushing cloth between the repetition levers and the knuckles.


Semipro Tech
Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2766987
09/22/18 01:12 AM
09/22/18 01:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline OP
Full Member
jinorden  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
I tried both cloth under knuckles and the high let-off. The cloth method is easier in that you don't need to do all that unscrewing but in and out movement is even more irritating because of the raised hammers. Also it feels like it might push the hammer upwards less than perfectly leveled horizontally.
But the most problematic for me is getting the hammers aligned to the left string. As the angle is important when you check visually and I have less than great sight, it is very frustrating. Doesn't help being a perfectionist in an obsessive way.
So a tool that helps with aligning many hammers at once without taking the action out more than a few times would be great. There is a tool called flange spacer but I wonder if anyone uses it. There is no space to turn flanges left and right, and if the screws are slightly loosened up you disturb the neighboring flanges alignment.
I attempted to make one out of a steel sheet. Didn't work out.

Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2766990
09/22/18 01:35 AM
09/22/18 01:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,726
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
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B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,726
Oakland
You can always mark where the strings meet the hammer with carbon paper.


Semipro Tech
Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2766994
09/22/18 01:59 AM
09/22/18 01:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline OP
Full Member
jinorden  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
Great idea, BDB. That's something I have to try. Then I can use a needle pointing at the mark and move hammers to right position very accurately on the bench. Some refinement necessary at the end, probably. My let-off jig is made of plastic rulers screwed to the wood frame, could align with help of the marks too. Thanks!

Re: flange spacer [Re: Chernobieff Piano] #2767025
09/22/18 08:27 AM
09/22/18 08:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 622
Rockville, MD
Seeker Offline
500 Post Club Member
Seeker  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 622
Rockville, MD
Can you take some pictures of your tools? how you do these things?


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2767029
09/22/18 08:55 AM
09/22/18 08:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline OP
Full Member
jinorden  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
I have a lot of tools, some bought, some I made myself. But for aligning hammers to strings all you need is a screwdriver. And optional I suppose, a flange spacer, which I don't have.

Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2767056
09/22/18 01:16 PM
09/22/18 01:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
E

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,294
Seattle, WA USA
It also helps if you know how to regulate grand dampers because spacing and phasing hammers to strings is better done without the dampers in the way. I usually remove them if I am regulating an already completed piano. If I am rebuilding one, the dampers don't go in untill the action and keys are perfectly regulated.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2767064
09/22/18 02:22 PM
09/22/18 02:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline OP
Full Member
jinorden  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
I do remove if leveling strings, but carefully put them back without ever bending wire. I can't regulate dampers if off. Maybe one if I take two days. So I avoid.

Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2767091
09/22/18 07:01 PM
09/22/18 07:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,726
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,726
Oakland


Semipro Tech
Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2767115
09/23/18 01:26 AM
09/23/18 01:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline OP
Full Member
jinorden  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
Saves me hours of searching. Going through posts and threads to find good stuff really takes a lot of time. Thanks, BDB!

Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2767117
09/23/18 01:33 AM
09/23/18 01:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,861
USA
B
Bob Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Bob  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,861
USA
I have a Steinway hammer flange spacer - it fits snuggly either side of the flange with a hole to access the flange screw. I use it for initial flange spacing when installing the shank, and for spacing to strings later on. Getting the initial flange spacing even is an important first step. There is usually enough play in the flange screw hole to allow neighboring flanges to touch. You want a gap between flanges, and my spacer does that.




Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2767120
09/23/18 02:13 AM
09/23/18 02:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline OP
Full Member
jinorden  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
Hi Bob,
I think I'll buy one. Do you have a link with an image of the tool?

Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2768797
10/01/18 12:46 PM
10/01/18 12:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,017
Madison, WI USA
B
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Bill Bremmer RPT  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,017
Madison, WI USA
"Steinways don't use one.."

It was at Steinway Factory training in 1986 where I found out what the tool was and how to use it. It is an essential tool. One could hardly space flanges and do other alignment techniques without one.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2768842
10/01/18 03:45 PM
10/01/18 03:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 766
Wisconsin, USA
L
Lakeviewsteve Offline
500 Post Club Member
Lakeviewsteve  Offline
500 Post Club Member
L

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 766
Wisconsin, USA
For those that don't like taking action in and out of a grand piano..... During a tour of the Bösendorfer factory outside of Vienna, I was watching a technician voice a new grand piano. He had a strap attached to the front of the action that allowed him to easily take the action in and out as you would open or close a drawer. There were two little holes in the middle of lower front part of the action he screwed this leather strap to.

When I returned home I looked at the action on mine and it had those same little holes in the middle of the front. When my technician came the next time I asked if he knew what those holes were for. He didn't so I showed him the strap I made using an old belt I cut up with screws at each end. He was surprised and used it when he had to needle a few hammers and said it saved time and allowed him to hear the effects of the needling quicker.

Steve

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 10/01/18 03:45 PM.

Bösendorfer 170
Re: flange spacer [Re: jinorden] #2768846
10/01/18 04:12 PM
10/01/18 04:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
J
jinorden Offline OP
Full Member
jinorden  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 240
Sweden
I won't make a new thread for this, just want to tell you all I just hanged my first hammers. 15 of 'em. Only one section 21 to 35. Took 6 hours to complete the jig, very homemade but 200 euros is a lotta money, I started to build it 4-5 years ago, maybe more, but lost interest. But today I finished it. Just to set up took an hour at least. Two hours to prepare the glue. Don't have a glue pot so I use some tin cup in another pan, on the stove. What a pain, my back hurts like heck. Those collars, they aren't easy. But I got the hang of it, even though I had to redo like every other one, sometimes twice. Looks 10 times better than what was there thou.
Not fun when I dropped hammer number 26 in the 60 Celsius hot water. Got it out quickly, no regard to burning my hand. I retired the hammer before it played it's first Bb. I thought, easy fix, I just move everything down, the set has 3 extra hammers (or 4?). Of course, you can't put nr. 91 there instead, one must use one's brain, damaged as it is, and shift or offset the hammers appropriately. So I started shifting. Shift, shift, 25 to 26, 24 to 25, until 21 to 22! I hope you aren't laughing by now. The horror, the 21 made me feel like when they take my queen on chess.com while I rub my hands 'cause I think I'm winning. The angle! A bass hammer! First I thought I'd have to unglue everything, but as in chess, there's always a move. Sometimes. Hopefully. So I started shifting the other way. 22 to 21, 23 to 22. And so on. Very proud of my work. I should be careful not do drink any water tonight as getting to the bathroom is no pick-nick. Maybe tomorrow.

Last edited by jinorden; 10/01/18 04:21 PM.
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