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Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: Doug M.] #2764884
09/12/18 04:16 AM
09/12/18 04:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,476
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by ChuckSomeWoo


Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by ChuckSomeWoo
As for the 100x sensitivity, I didn't know that, thanks. For me it was more about the key mechanics. .


What you feel when you play isn't just about key mechanics: the software/hardware interface creates the illusion you feel when you play. This is why a good connection between the software bit of the piano and the action mechanism can make a poor action feel good or a good action feel poor. Hence why I felt the RD700NX action felt inferior to that on the V-piano despite being the same mechanics.

The FP60 is a newer model and likely flatters the PHAIV standard action.


I understood your point. And its true that you definitely need the proper sound and sensory response from the touch to get that connection. But I was comparing FP-60 and 90, the same series, and the PHA-4 still felt better than the PHA-50. You mentioned something about a 100x sensitivity in the PHA-4, so I was asking you if this is in the PHA-50 as well?

Regarding sampling and modelling, actually the FP-60 doesn't have the modelling like the FP-90 has, it just has sampling. So the FP-60 technically has inferior piano sound, yet the action felt better. So I'm not entirely sure it has to do with the sound (from what I can see).



Since the RD700SX, Roland have used this hybrid Sampling / Modelling approach called SuperNatural piano. Basically, it is sampled piano with modelling used to simulate string resonance---all the manufacturers use it today except Roland and Physis which now use 100% modeled piano. The FP60 uses hybrid sampled/modelled piano as its sound engine also. Some people prefer that sound/interface combo to the 100% modeled sound. Don't worry, you are not alone.


You're not really listening to the guy, Doug. He's already said that Fp90 has a better sound than FP60. But the feel of the keybed is in some ways superior on the cheaper model. I think that, too, as do others. A similar situation exists on Yamaha's NU1, the keybed of which is based on nothing better than a B2. Who would honestly buy that digital if they didn't like the overall experience?
It's easy to tell for sure.

You play it first switched off!

Last edited by peterws; 09/12/18 04:18 AM.

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Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: peterws] #2764905
09/12/18 07:19 AM
09/12/18 07:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,200
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by ChuckSomeWoo


Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by ChuckSomeWoo
As for the 100x sensitivity, I didn't know that, thanks. For me it was more about the key mechanics. .


What you feel when you play isn't just about key mechanics: the software/hardware interface creates the illusion you feel when you play. This is why a good connection between the software bit of the piano and the action mechanism can make a poor action feel good or a good action feel poor. Hence why I felt the RD700NX action felt inferior to that on the V-piano despite being the same mechanics.

The FP60 is a newer model and likely flatters the PHAIV standard action.


I understood your point. And its true that you definitely need the proper sound and sensory response from the touch to get that connection. But I was comparing FP-60 and 90, the same series, and the PHA-4 still felt better than the PHA-50. You mentioned something about a 100x sensitivity in the PHA-4, so I was asking you if this is in the PHA-50 as well?

Regarding sampling and modelling, actually the FP-60 doesn't have the modelling like the FP-90 has, it just has sampling. So the FP-60 technically has inferior piano sound, yet the action felt better. So I'm not entirely sure it has to do with the sound (from what I can see).



Since the RD700SX, Roland have used this hybrid Sampling / Modelling approach called SuperNatural piano. Basically, it is sampled piano with modelling used to simulate string resonance---all the manufacturers use it today except Roland and Physis which now use 100% modeled piano. The FP60 uses hybrid sampled/modelled piano as its sound engine also. Some people prefer that sound/interface combo to the 100% modeled sound. Don't worry, you are not alone.


You're not really listening to the guy, Doug. He's already said that Fp90 has a better sound than FP60. But the feel of the keybed is in some ways superior on the cheaper model. I think that, too, as do others. A similar situation exists on Yamaha's NU1, the keybed of which is based on nothing better than a B2. Who would honestly buy that digital if they didn't like the overall experience?
It's easy to tell for sure.

You play it first switched off!



I'm wondering if the overall experience of the feel of the action is due to the connection between the PHAIV keybed and the sampling/modelling hybrid sound generator, hence the clarification. You can prefer the sound of the modeled piano but still prefer the action of the FP60 due to the connection between the action and the software---I think anyway.

There is also another possibility: the FP90 model on display might have been battered by constant demo use and thus no longer be representative of a new instrument. Personally, I wasn't in the slightest doubt which action was better in comparison to competitor brands---the PHA50 was clearly a closer match to the Kawai Grand Feel actions in quality compared with the PHAIV. However, feeling aside...

Perhaps:
1) ChuckSomeWoo values different aspects of the action more highly or less highly than myself ---indicating a subjective bias issue
2) ChuckSomeWoo prefers the feel of the PHAIV action on the FP60 due to the combination of PHAIV action and old Supernatural Hybrid sampling/modelling sound source having a superior connection.
3) The FP90 he tried has either a defective action or has been used as a demo model for so long that it is done in (not likely if he's tried the action on different Roland instruments)

Whilst I can understand why someone would think the sampling / modelling hybrid tops the modeled piano sounds, I'm not sure how someone could prefer the PHAIV action over the PHA50 other than having a subjective preference for it---If so, then I guess that should be a deciding factor in his instrument purchase.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: Doug M.] #2764923
09/12/18 09:17 AM
09/12/18 09:17 AM
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Posts: 3,714
Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Whilst I can understand why someone would think the sampling / modelling hybrid tops the modeled piano sounds, I'm not sure how someone could prefer the PHAIV action over the PHA50 other than having a subjective preference for it---If so, then I guess that should be a deciding factor in his instrument purchase.


What I think you are saying is that PHA-50 is clearly superior and that anyone who prefers PHA-IV Standard is wrong, but that they are entitled to their subjective (incorrect in your view) opinion. That is a kind of intellectual arrogance at the very least.

Anyone can prefer anything. Yes, that is subjective. But there is no objective measurement that allows anyone to conclude with absolute accuracy or reliability which piano action is better or best. It's not for you to tell someone they are wrong or that they are under the influence of some kind of irrational personal bias. Personal bias, i.e., preference, is what guides all of these kind of purchases. There is no science. It's just about what feels best to each individual.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: EssBrace] #2764928
09/12/18 09:35 AM
09/12/18 09:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,706
Portugal
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace

Anyone can prefer anything. Yes, that is subjective. But there is no objective measurement that allows anyone to conclude with absolute accuracy or reliability which piano action is better or best. It's not for you to tell someone they are wrong or that they are under the influence of some kind of irrational personal bias. Personal bias, i.e., preference, is what guides all of these kind of purchases. There is no science. It's just about what feels best to each individual.


There is actually a fairly objective benchmark in this selection, which is what nearly every prospective DP buyer states when outlining their preference: realistic acoustic piano touch/feel (along with "I'm not interested in bells and whistles").

If people were just looking for the 'best feeling action' then it would be pretty well subjective, but a 'typical grand piano action' is some sort of objective measure.


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Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: ChuckSomeWoo] #2764957
09/12/18 12:00 PM
09/12/18 12:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,476
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Northern England.
I was playing some acoustics yesterday in Porthmadoc. They weren't Steinways, but there were some agreeable uprights, and grands in various weights including a very nice Erard, and a Kawai.
Generally, I have to say that digital pianos as we know them, from GHS up to Avant Grands, do a fine job of impersonation at various levels.

I often wonder what we'd think of acoustic actions if we could turn off the sound . . . .

I suppose the ultimate digital would have the real piano action, with the hammers striking 88 sensors . . . .

Last edited by peterws; 09/12/18 12:01 PM.

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Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: EssBrace] #2764962
09/12/18 12:27 PM
09/12/18 12:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,200
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Whilst I can understand why someone would think the sampling / modelling hybrid tops the modeled piano sounds, I'm not sure how someone could prefer the PHAIV action over the PHA50 other than having a subjective preference for it---If so, then I guess that should be a deciding factor in his instrument purchase.


What I think you are saying is that PHA-50 is clearly superior and that anyone who prefers PHA-IV Standard is wrong, but that they are entitled to their subjective (incorrect in your view) opinion. That is a kind of intellectual arrogance at the very least.

Anyone can prefer anything. Yes, that is subjective. But there is no objective measurement that allows anyone to conclude with absolute accuracy or reliability which piano action is better or best. It's not for you to tell someone they are wrong or that they are under the influence of some kind of irrational personal bias. Personal bias, i.e., preference, is what guides all of these kind of purchases. There is no science. It's just about what feels best to each individual.


Specifically---and to explicate my view more thoroughly--- I'm saying that the weighting and feel of acoustics I tested for comparison [i.e., Yamaha U1, a Yamaha baby grand (can't remember model) and the Avant Grand N1/N2 key actions], in my testing, I concluded that the weight and feel of the Grand Feel actions (I and II) most closely mimicked the acoustic actions tested (esp. for weighting). Of the other actions tested, the next closest (esp. for weighting) was the PHA50. Heavier actions I've tested include the RM3 Grand II, the RHIII, the RHII, the PHAIV, the PHAIII, the NXW, the GH3X, the NW etc.

Specifically on this question: the contrast between the PHA50 and PHAIV, the main differences I noticed in transition between the PHAIII, IV to 50 were:
1) the actions have gotten lighter from III, IV to 50 (heaviest to lightest)
2) the bottoming out of the actions has gotten less bouncy/squishy (more in line with the Grand Feel action).

I wish to underline most clearly: I do not specifically consider the PHAIV to be inferior, just different. I have used the Grand Feel action as a direct comparison for weighting and specifically noted the PHAIV to be heavier. If you like a heavier action, thus, this is a better fit.

To underscore this point, I had a lot of fun playing on the Roland V-piano with its PHAIII action. It is a similar weighting to my RHII action on the MP7. The overall experience with the modeled piano and it's fab monitors was very immersive and I could have stayed for hours. However, if I set the term 'valuable' to mean 'closest to the acoustic grand actions' (i.e., Avant Grand etc), then on that criteria, the Grand Feel action more closely resembles this feeling (to play) than does the PHAIV. In those terms, that was my conclusions from a more objective standpoint (i.e., by identifying factors like weighting, feel).

Others may have formed different conclusions---so be it.

With regards to the connection between the sound source and the action, I think that this can colour ones opinion of an action (both positively and negatively). As this total experience might depend upon how much you like a particular tone as well as how sensitive is the connection between action and sound source, I consider this to be a more subjective measure, albeit valid.

I think currently Mr EssBrace is demonstrating a negative interpretation of my analysis / evaluations due to differences expressed in previous posts concerning our personal preferences for tone (you seem to like Yamaha, I feel currently less disposed to them). Personally, I'm not disposed to let it become personal. Also, I do like many Yamaha products such as the Montage, the Genos, the Tyros, the Stage A series, the Reface etc.

Also, I do not wish to suggest that a heavier action is inferior. Probably many of us have played acoustics with v. heavy actions and a variety of different feelings and sensations. Just so happens that for comparisons sake, I'm limiting the analysis to the modern Yamaha upright, baby grand and Avant Grand as these were the acoustics available during my testing sessions.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: ChuckSomeWoo] #2764974
09/12/18 01:34 PM
09/12/18 01:34 PM
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A year ago, when I was looking for a digital piano after 40 years away from playing, I tried several at a local store and couldn't decide which action was more "authentic". I thought I'd forgotten what a good acoustic action felt like, so visited a dealer with a huge range of grand pianos in his showroom. The idea was to recall what a real grand piano felt like, so that I could buy the digital that felt most like one.

Well, every grand piano felt different! Some had light, almost bouncy, actions; others were heavier. And price had nothing to do with it. After a while, I realized that there was no objective, ideal, "correct" action, and it was all down to personal preference. The wide variety of opinions on this forum about what is the best digital piano action would seem to support this conclusion.

Nevertheless, I do enjoy reading what others have to say, especially if they are as detailed and well-reasoned as the OP ChuckSomeWoo, though I might not agree!

Last edited by Lotus1; 09/12/18 01:37 PM.
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: Lotus1] #2764990
09/12/18 02:25 PM
09/12/18 02:25 PM
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Colin Miles Offline
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Originally Posted by Lotus1
A year ago, when I was looking for a digital piano after 40 years away from playing, I tried several at a local store and couldn't decide which action was more "authentic". I thought I'd forgotten what a good acoustic action felt like, so visited a dealer with a huge range of grand pianos in his showroom. The idea was to recall what a real grand piano felt like, so that I could buy the digital that felt most like one.

Well, every grand piano felt different! Some had light, almost bouncy, actions; others were heavier. And price had nothing to do with it. After a while, I realized that there was no objective, ideal, "correct" action, and it was all down to personal preference. The wide variety of opinions on this forum about what is the best digital piano action would seem to support this conclusion.

Nevertheless, I do enjoy reading what others have to say, especially if they are as detailed and well-reasoned as the OP ChuckSomeWoo, though I might not agree!


Agreed 100%. I had exactly the same experience with uprights and grands.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: toddy] #2764991
09/12/18 02:26 PM
09/12/18 02:26 PM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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Originally Posted by toddy
If people were just looking for the 'best feeling action' then it would be pretty well subjective, but a 'typical grand piano action' is some sort of objective measure.


Not really, because as Lotus points out above, every acoustic action feels different. I'm not sure it is possible to express in any objective sense what typical is. One can only compare to the acoustics we, as individuals, have played. Furthermore many DP buyers have never played an acoustic, or their experience is limited to fairly mediocre upright pianos.


Doug, you are quite right in a certain sense. I have experienced negative thoughts about some of your posts. For quite some time you were expressing your opinion as if it were a fact and frankly that still comes through in your posts. Furthermore, and somewhat ironically, your posts quite often contain factual inaccuracies about this product or that. Lastly, I feel (and of course I may be very wide of the mark - but it's what I feel), that you have attempted to present yourself as some kind of arbiter or higher judge. I must confess that has got up my nose, yes. If you re-read your previous post you were clearly stating that PHA-50 is superior and someone would only disagree because they were experiencing some personal bias. You offered your opinion as the truth and to my mind you were saying to ChuckSomeWoo, "Yes, you may prefer it, but you're wrong".

For what it's worth, your attitude to certain Yamaha products has been disproportionately negative and dismissive, but you're not alone in that. You are right, I like the Yamaha sound in certain respects and I quite like the company but I don't own any Yamaha product at all, and have not done so for a considerable period of time. If I liked them that much I would be an owner.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: Doug M.] #2765006
09/12/18 03:36 PM
09/12/18 03:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,476
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Northern England.
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Whilst I can understand why someone would think the sampling / modelling hybrid tops the modeled piano sounds, I'm not sure how someone could prefer the PHAIV action over the PHA50 other than having a subjective preference for it---If so, then I guess that should be a deciding factor in his instrument purchase.


What I think you are saying is that PHA-50 is clearly superior and that anyone who prefers PHA-IV Standard is wrong, but that they are entitled to their subjective (incorrect in your view) opinion. That is a kind of intellectual arrogance at the very least.

Anyone can prefer anything. Yes, that is subjective. But there is no objective measurement that allows anyone to conclude with absolute accuracy or reliability which piano action is better or best. It's not for you to tell someone they are wrong or that they are under the influence of some kind of irrational personal bias. Personal bias, i.e., preference, is what guides all of these kind of purchases. There is no science. It's just about what feels best to each individual.


Specifically---and to explicate my view more thoroughly--- I'm saying that the weighting and feel of acoustics I tested for comparison [i.e., Yamaha U1, a Yamaha baby grand (can't remember model) and the Avant Grand N1/N2 key actions], in my testing, I concluded that the weight and feel of the Grand Feel actions (I and II) most closely mimicked the acoustic actions tested (esp. for weighting). Of the other actions tested, the next closest (esp. for weighting) was the PHA50. Heavier actions I've tested include the RM3 Grand II, the RHIII, the RHII, the PHAIV, the PHAIII, the NXW, the GH3X, the NW etc.

Specifically on this question: the contrast between the PHA50 and PHAIV, the main differences I noticed in transition between the PHAIII, IV to 50 were:
1) the actions have gotten lighter from III, IV to 50 (heaviest to lightest)
2) the bottoming out of the actions has gotten less bouncy/squishy (more in line with the Grand Feel action).

I wish to underline most clearly: I do not specifically consider the PHAIV to be inferior, just different. I have used the Grand Feel action as a direct comparison for weighting and specifically noted the PHAIV to be heavier. If you like a heavier action, thus, this is a better fit.

To underscore this point, I had a lot of fun playing on the Roland V-piano with its PHAIII action. It is a similar weighting to my RHII action on the MP7. The overall experience with the modeled piano and it's fab monitors was very immersive and I could have stayed for hours. However, if I set the term 'valuable' to mean 'closest to the acoustic grand actions' (i.e., Avant Grand etc), then on that criteria, the Grand Feel action more closely resembles this feeling (to play) than does the PHAIV. In those terms, that was my conclusions from a more objective standpoint (i.e., by identifying factors like weighting, feel).

Others may have formed different conclusions---so be it.

With regards to the connection between the sound source and the action, I think that this can colour ones opinion of an action (both positively and negatively). As this total experience might depend upon how much you like a particular tone as well as how sensitive is the connection between action and sound source, I consider this to be a more subjective measure, albeit valid.

I think currently Mr EssBrace is demonstrating a negative interpretation of my analysis / evaluations due to differences expressed in previous posts concerning our personal preferences for tone (you seem to like Yamaha, I feel currently less disposed to them). Personally, I'm not disposed to let it become personal. Also, I do like many Yamaha products such as the Montage, the Genos, the Tyros, the Stage A series, the Reface etc.

Also, I do not wish to suggest that a heavier action is inferior. Probably many of us have played acoustics with v. heavy actions and a variety of different feelings and sensations. Just so happens that for comparisons sake, I'm limiting the analysis to the modern Yamaha upright, baby grand and Avant Grand as these were the acoustics available during my testing sessions.


I understand that the PHA4 referred to here, historically from ChuckSomeWoo, is PH4 standard, not the earlier Concert designation, which has little to do with the original conflict of opinions expressed.
Nearly time for a beer.


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Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: ChuckSomeWoo] #2765460
09/14/18 12:00 PM
09/14/18 12:00 PM
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America
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Jitin Offline
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is the pha4 found in fp60 linear graded hammer, unlike some actions that is graded in blocks?


P155
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: Jitin] #2765475
09/14/18 12:52 PM
09/14/18 12:52 PM
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Finland
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Originally Posted by Jitin
is the pha4 found in fp60 linear graded hammer, unlike some actions that is graded in blocks?


Yes, at least according to a YouTube video comment from a music store staff member who wrote that he actually confirmed it from a Roland representative. It was about the RP-102, but that's the same action.

Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: clothearednincompo] #2765744
09/15/18 07:32 PM
09/15/18 07:32 PM
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Jitin Offline
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I’m having a tough time deciding between the fp60 and p515(nwx) , I like the sound of p515 but action of fp60 .... decisions


P155
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: ChuckSomeWoo] #2765814
09/16/18 05:12 AM
09/16/18 05:12 AM
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puremusic Offline
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Very interesting reading all the impressions. smile

I am quite happy with my PHA-50 keys.

I just brought out my old Keystation 88 which had been stored away, and set it up above my FP-90 to use as a secondary keyboard, for when I want to compose with two instruments at the same time. Back when I was using it I loved the light feel and searched at first for a similar light feel in weighted hammer action, but felt it the velocity sensitivity a bit unreliable. Now that I've thankfully been able to afford an FP-90 and I've been playing the PHA-50 keybed which originally felt a bit heavy and took time to develop finger strength for.. The Keystation is way too light feeling! It's almost like trying to press air!


Roland FP-90 - Touchkeys - TEC BC - MIDI Expression
Kontakt - Arturia Piano V - Sonivox Eighty-Eight - Spitfire Symphony Orchestra

whitepianos.blogspot.com
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: Jitin] #2765820
09/16/18 06:44 AM
09/16/18 06:44 AM
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Posts: 7,476
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Northern England.
Originally Posted by Jitin
I’m having a tough time deciding between the fp60 and p515(nwx) , I like the sound of p515 but action of fp60 .... decisions


It's a pity really that Roland did not upgrade the sound engine on the FP60. Maybe they will for future if they read all this. Similar sound on the F140 and Rp501 but the dynamics and the speaker output seem down.

Bespoke pianos? Could be around the corner.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: Doug M.] #2767465
09/24/18 11:13 PM
09/24/18 11:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 6
London
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ChuckSomeWoo Offline OP
Junior Member
ChuckSomeWoo  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 6
London
Originally Posted by Doug M.
I'm wondering if the overall experience of the feel of the action is due to the connection between the PHAIV keybed and the sampling/modelling hybrid sound generator, hence the clarification. You can prefer the sound of the modeled piano but still prefer the action of the FP60 due to the connection between the action and the software---I think anyway.

There is also another possibility: the FP90 model on display might have been battered by constant demo use and thus no longer be representative of a new instrument. Personally, I wasn't in the slightest doubt which action was better in comparison to competitor brands---the PHA50 was clearly a closer match to the Kawai Grand Feel actions in quality compared with the PHAIV. However, feeling aside...

Perhaps:
1) ChuckSomeWoo values different aspects of the action more highly or less highly than myself ---indicating a subjective bias issue
2) ChuckSomeWoo prefers the feel of the PHAIV action on the FP60 due to the combination of PHAIV action and old Supernatural Hybrid sampling/modelling sound source having a superior connection.
3) The FP90 he tried has either a defective action or has been used as a demo model for so long that it is done in (not likely if he's tried the action on different Roland instruments)

Whilst I can understand why someone would think the sampling / modelling hybrid tops the modeled piano sounds, I'm not sure how someone could prefer the PHAIV action over the PHA50 other than having a subjective preference for it---If so, then I guess that should be a deciding factor in his instrument purchase.


I've had the FP-60 for a few weeks now, and can say it's really fantastic. I've tried it as a MIDI keyboard with PianoTeq as well, and can say that the action feels just as good as with the built in piano sample/modeling (albeit a tiny difference due to latency), so I wouldn't say there is any illusion going on because of the modeling. The action is great due to the properties I said in the original post. I also tried the FP-90 at 2 different stores.

Someone can prefer the PHAIV standard over the PHA50 because of several factors, 1) it has a much better let-off or escapement than the PHA50, one which you can actually feel when playing softly to medium. Actually, I could barely even feel an escapement on the PHA50, yet I could on an £80K Yamaha CF6, and this to me made the PHA50 feel somewhat unrealistic 2) the PHA50 action also had a slight swishing sound and squishy feel as you press the key that was somewhat noticeable when playing softly, not present on the PHAIV standard 3) the response of the keys which was a mix of action design and weight , felt to me, more realistic, which became more and more evident when switching back and forth between the two actions 4) I prefer the harder bottoming out feel of the PHAIV as the PHA50 has more of a softer bed, and the softer the bottoming out the less feel/connection I personally get.

The PHA50 is a great action, but it came second for me in terms of feel and realism, but still a nicer feeling keyboard than all the Kawai actions.

And I must say, that the built in piano sounds (Concert Piano and Ballad Piano) sound brilliant, especially with headphones. You really don't even need a VST. I'm using Sony WH-1000XM2 headphones and it's just amazing.

Originally Posted by peterws

I often wonder what we'd think of acoustic actions if we could turn off the sound . . . .

I suppose the ultimate digital would have the real piano action, with the hammers striking 88 sensors . . . .


Actually, you can do this and I tried it. I tried it on a upright Yamaha U3 that had a Silent System. If you're not familiar with it, basically there's a mechanism that when engaged, prevents the hammers from hitting the strings, so no sound. Yet there are sensors beneath the keys that get activated and so you can play on a real acoustic piano with headphones, with a concert grand sampling sound.

As you can imagine, it feels amazing.. and I was a bit surprised to hear how loud the keyboard action was without sound to be honest. Much louder than any of the Kawai, Roland actions, and more like the GH action, probably a bit louder.

You also have the AvantGrand actions which are the next best thing.

Originally Posted by Doug M.
Specifically---and to explicate my view more thoroughly--- I'm saying that the weighting and feel of acoustics I tested for comparison [i.e., Yamaha U1, a Yamaha baby grand (can't remember model) and the Avant Grand N1/N2 key actions], in my testing, I concluded that the weight and feel of the Grand Feel actions (I and II) most closely mimicked the acoustic actions tested (esp. for weighting). Of the other actions tested, the next closest (esp. for weighting) was the PHA50. Heavier actions I've tested include the RM3 Grand II, the RHIII, the RHII, the PHAIV, the PHAIII, the NXW, the GH3X, the NW etc.

Specifically on this question: the contrast between the PHA50 and PHAIV, the main differences I noticed in transition between the PHAIII, IV to 50 were:
1) the actions have gotten lighter from III, IV to 50 (heaviest to lightest)
2) the bottoming out of the actions has gotten less bouncy/squishy (more in line with the Grand Feel action).

I wish to underline most clearly: I do not specifically consider the PHAIV to be inferior, just different. I have used the Grand Feel action as a direct comparison for weighting and specifically noted the PHAIV to be heavier. If you like a heavier action, thus, this is a better fit.

To underscore this point, I had a lot of fun playing on the Roland V-piano with its PHAIII action. It is a similar weighting to my RHII action on the MP7. The overall experience with the modeled piano and it's fab monitors was very immersive and I could have stayed for hours. However, if I set the term 'valuable' to mean 'closest to the acoustic grand actions' (i.e., Avant Grand etc), then on that criteria, the Grand Feel action more closely resembles this feeling (to play) than does the PHAIV. In those terms, that was my conclusions from a more objective standpoint (i.e., by identifying factors like weighting, feel).

Others may have formed different conclusions---so be it.

With regards to the connection between the sound source and the action, I think that this can colour ones opinion of an action (both positively and negatively). As this total experience might depend upon how much you like a particular tone as well as how sensitive is the connection between action and sound source, I consider this to be a more subjective measure, albeit valid.

I think currently Mr EssBrace is demonstrating a negative interpretation of my analysis / evaluations due to differences expressed in previous posts concerning our personal preferences for tone (you seem to like Yamaha, I feel currently less disposed to them). Personally, I'm not disposed to let it become personal. Also, I do like many Yamaha products such as the Montage, the Genos, the Tyros, the Stage A series, the Reface etc.

Also, I do not wish to suggest that a heavier action is inferior. Probably many of us have played acoustics with v. heavy actions and a variety of different feelings and sensations. Just so happens that for comparisons sake, I'm limiting the analysis to the modern Yamaha upright, baby grand and Avant Grand as these were the acoustics available during my testing sessions.


I've owned a Yamaha U1 for 18+ years, played on many different Yamaha uprights and Grands, and can for sure say that Kawai action feels nothing like a Yamaha action. So I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that the Yamahas more closely resemble the Grand Feel actions. Acoustic Yamahas, and even the AvantGrand, bottom out hard when you press the keys (the Kawais have such a soft keybed in comparison), there is less key travel distance, quicker response when playing higher tempos, and the Yamahas will give you a forearm workout in comparison to the Grand Feel.

In terms of weight, I agree that the PHA50 is ever so slightly lighter than the PHAIV, but in all honesty, the both of them along with all the Kawai actions and AvantGrand are so similar in weight that weight shouldn't be a concerning factor to analyse. There are acoustic uprights and grands that are proper heavy, and unless you've played and practiced on one of those, you can't really appreciate how closely weighted the above actions are. The thing that sets them apart though is definitely feel and playability, everything from hammer action design and let-off to key-bed cushioning/punching and key-top surfaces. I chose the Rolands over the Kawai because of the harder key-bed punching and nicer key-top feel, and the PHAIV over the PHA50 for the better escapement and more realistic feeling action.


<insert awesome signature here>
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: peterws] #2767467
09/24/18 11:38 PM
09/24/18 11:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 6
London
C
ChuckSomeWoo Offline OP
Junior Member
ChuckSomeWoo  Offline OP
Junior Member
C

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 6
London
Originally Posted by Jitin
I’m having a tough time deciding between the fp60 and p515(nwx) , I like the sound of p515 but action of fp60 .... decisions


I haven't tried the P-515 yet, but I would definitely recommend to prioritise action. You can always get better sounds via a PC, but to be honest, I've had the FP-60 for a few weeks now and you will NOT be disappointed with the piano sound, even better so with good headphones. The sampling and modeling is fantastic to be honest, it responds really well to different velocities and sounds authentic. Coupled with the fact that you already seem to know the action is better on the Roland, if those are the things that are important to you then I would recommend the FP-60.

Originally Posted by peterws


It's a pity really that Roland did not upgrade the sound engine on the FP60. Maybe they will for future if they read all this. Similar sound on the F140 and Rp501 but the dynamics and the speaker output seem down.

Bespoke pianos? Could be around the corner.


It's not a pity at all, it sounds great!! Maybe I'll upload a recording later, but here's someone else playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt42olQDu7U


<insert awesome signature here>
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: EssBrace] #2767483
09/25/18 03:30 AM
09/25/18 03:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,200
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Doug M.  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,200
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by toddy
If people were just looking for the 'best feeling action' then it would be pretty well subjective, but a 'typical grand piano action' is some sort of objective measure.


Not really, because as Lotus points out above, every acoustic action feels different. I'm not sure it is possible to express in any objective sense what typical is. One can only compare to the acoustics we, as individuals, have played. Furthermore many DP buyers have never played an acoustic, or their experience is limited to fairly mediocre upright pianos.


Doug, you are quite right in a certain sense. I have experienced negative thoughts about some of your posts. For quite some time you were expressing your opinion as if it were a fact and frankly that still comes through in your posts. Furthermore, and somewhat ironically, your posts quite often contain factual inaccuracies about this product or that. Lastly, I feel (and of course I may be very wide of the mark - but it's what I feel), that you have attempted to present yourself as some kind of arbiter or higher judge. I must confess that has got up my nose, yes. If you re-read your previous post you were clearly stating that PHA-50 is superior and someone would only disagree because they were experiencing some personal bias. You offered your opinion as the truth and to my mind you were saying to ChuckSomeWoo, "Yes, you may prefer it, but you're wrong".

For what it's worth, your attitude to certain Yamaha products has been disproportionately negative and dismissive, but you're not alone in that. You are right, I like the Yamaha sound in certain respects and I quite like the company but I don't own any Yamaha product at all, and have not done so for a considerable period of time. If I liked them that much I would be an owner.


I respect that you give your honest opinion EssBrace. My apologies for how my comments have made you feel! You have some valid points---self-presentation and tact has never been my strong point, especially when tired and probably shouldn't be typing. I'd have to admit to sometimes expressing my strongly held opinions too matter of fact rather than taking time to carefully pick adjectives that frame them more as opinion. Far rather get an honest opinion when I've overstepped the mark than that of a kindly liar.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: ChuckSomeWoo] #2767484
09/25/18 03:34 AM
09/25/18 03:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,476
Northern England.
peterws Offline
7000 Post Club Member
peterws  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,476
Northern England.
Originally Posted by ChuckSomeWoo
Originally Posted by Jitin
I’m having a tough time deciding between the fp60 and p515(nwx) , I like the sound of p515 but action of fp60 .... decisions


I haven't tried the P-515 yet, but I would definitely recommend to prioritise action. You can always get better sounds via a PC, but to be honest, I've had the FP-60 for a few weeks now and you will NOT be disappointed with the piano sound, even better so with good headphones. The sampling and modeling is fantastic to be honest, it responds really well to different velocities and sounds authentic. Coupled with the fact that you already seem to know the action is better on the Roland, if those are the things that are important to you then I would recommend the FP-60.

Originally Posted by peterws


It's a pity really that Roland did not upgrade the sound engine on the FP60. Maybe they will for future if they read all this. Similar sound on the F140 and Rp501 but the dynamics and the speaker output seem down.

Bespoke pianos? Could be around the corner.


It's not a pity at all, it sounds great!! Maybe I'll upload a recording later, but here's someone else playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt42olQDu7U



So glad you're enjoying your purchase. I concur with all you said about the FP60 action; it is the nearest thing to an acoustic, a decent upright, possibly better than that. My own FP50 is very similar, but not quite as nice, it seemed. Since I only use pianoteq, it 's pointless to change now although the speakers of FP60 are great.
The new Yamaha is in the shop now. So maybe I'll take a trip to see it . . . .and others.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: PHA-4, PHA-50, GF, GFII, GFC, NWX, GH, GranTouch, AvantGrand [Re: Doug M.] #2767490
09/25/18 04:52 AM
09/25/18 04:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,714
Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
3000 Post Club Member
EssBrace  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,714
Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by Doug M.
I respect that you give your honest opinion EssBrace. My apologies for how my comments have made you feel! You have some valid points---self-presentation and tact has never been my strong point, especially when tired and probably shouldn't be typing. I'd have to admit to sometimes expressing my strongly held opinions too matter of fact rather than taking time to carefully pick adjectives that frame them more as opinion. Far rather get an honest opinion when I've overstepped the mark than that of a kindly liar.


Mutual respect to you Doug. I'll stop sniping.

Cheers,

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
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