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How can I improve my rhythm hearing? #2766444
09/19/18 10:45 AM
09/19/18 10:45 AM
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michaelvi Offline OP
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Sorry if I am starting new thread on the topic that was probably already discussed here thousand times (including my own thread I think, which for unknown reason I cannot find...)
After 2.5 years of trying to play piano and analyzing my achievements and faults I am coming to the conclusion that my rhythm hearing is my major problem (if not to say blocker). I have excellent tone hearing - confirmed by knowledgeable people and all test that I tried. My finger technique is much better that it could be expected given time I spent at the piano - also confirmed by those people.
The only blame I hear all the time - "you don't count!!!". I am trying to count... To my hearing it appears correct, but when I look at those graphs drawn in DAW software I ONLY VISUALLY see that real nightmare...
I know first suggestion that will come - metronome. I tried many, many times. Just cannot connect it (another confirmation of the problem?).
A software like Piano Marvel? Maybe I should try it again, but previously it didn't work for me.
Some other exercises, special pieces, etc.?


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766450
09/19/18 10:57 AM
09/19/18 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Sorry if I am starting new thread on the topic that was probably already discussed here thousand times (including my own thread I think, which for unknown reason I cannot find...)
After 2.5 years of trying to play piano and analyzing my achievements and faults I am coming to the conclusion that my rhythm hearing is my major problem (if not to say blocker). I have excellent tone hearing - confirmed by knowledgeable people and all test that I tried. My finger technique is much better that it could be expected given time I spent at the piano - also confirmed by those people.
The only blame I hear all the time - "you don't count!!!". I am trying to count... To my hearing it appears correct, but when I look at those graphs drawn in DAW software I ONLY VISUALLY see that real nightmare...
I know first suggestion that will come - metronome. I tried many, many times. Just cannot connect it (another confirmation of the problem?).
A software like Piano Marvel? Maybe I should try it again, but previously it didn't work for me.
Some other exercises, special pieces, etc.?


I don't think there is any easy answer other than to keep trying using various methods, shutting your eyes and listening and so on. In school we had a genius at all subjects and who got into Cambridge for maths before he was old enough to be allowed in. But he couldn't keep in time with the school orchestra when playing his flute. I sat next to him trying to count and help him but he couldn't manage it.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766454
09/19/18 11:09 AM
09/19/18 11:09 AM
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Start out by counting out loud while you play and continue to work on playing with the metronome..,,, using the
Metronome is a skill but well worth the energy. You are not unique in this problem! One thing that helps me is to use a metronome on my cellphone and plug in my earphones..

Last edited by dogperson; 09/19/18 11:10 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766474
09/19/18 01:37 PM
09/19/18 01:37 PM
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I learned by counting out loud w tapping left foot. Gotta do it for a long boring time slowly . Then do it while listening to songs too

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766487
09/19/18 03:08 PM
09/19/18 03:08 PM
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Thank everybody for answers.
Basically, you say that there is not "magic secret" behind the issue and no special methodologies can help. I just need to "try harder"(C)

Maybe I should also try to explain my problem in a different way. For example, today I tried to follow these youtube lessons - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu8p_6tJYcQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvl4ViY8ka0
I understand everything he says and draws ... until music starts. At that point I do not hear any correlation between what I hear and what he draws. I am emphasizing word "hear" because that describes my problem better than if I wrote "see". Again, I understand logic that he explains, I can count 1-2-3-4 and clap my shoulder at right moments - but only if I disconnect from music and just do it like if I had to clap at even time periods in a silence (I mean it seems to me that I do have internal time feeling unrelated to music). But I can't find those beats in the music I hear... So my feeling is that I need somehow to train rhythm hearing, not just rhythm feeling by itself.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766500
09/19/18 04:05 PM
09/19/18 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
....I can count 1-2-3-4 and clap my shoulder at right moments - but only if I disconnect from music and just do it like if I had to clap at even time periods in a silence (I mean it seems to me that I do have internal time feeling unrelated to music). But I can't find those beats in the music I hear... So my feeling is that I need somehow to train rhythm hearing, not just rhythm feeling by itself.

I think it's best if you go back to first principles and start from scratch, with familiar tunes - like Happy Birthday.

Don't look it up - how many beats in a bar/measure? Sing it aloud. Then, with the tune in your head, clap the beats.

Does the tune start on a strong beat or weak one? Once you get the strong beats, you know how many beats to a bar.

And so on, always with very familiar songs or tunes you know. Nothing is too simple to practice clapping beats to.

Learn to beat time in duple, triple and quadruple time and try beating time to the music. No music is too simple to practice beating time to.

(BTW, that's also exactly what conductors do with their RH grin).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766510
09/19/18 05:01 PM
09/19/18 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

I know first suggestion that will come - metronome. I tried many, many times. Just cannot connect it (another confirmation of the problem?).


If you can't 'connect' to a metronome, whatever that means, then you keep practicing with it and you always practice with it and you don't practice any other way. The way you know your playing in time with a metronome is that you can't hear it cause you're playing at the same time and the note you play mask's the metronome's sound.

The ear training prep video you linked, is for after you learn how to practice with a metronome.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766514
09/19/18 05:38 PM
09/19/18 05:38 PM
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Perhaps trying to intellectually relate rhythm to external things such as notation, counting and metronomes might not be the easiest way to go. I have always found rhythm to be a deeply internal, almost physical sensation, felt first and represented second. It resides everywhere in daily life within innumerable processes. If we tried to think about the complex rhythms of speech before saying something we would either be tongue-tied or sound completely unnatural. An experiment worth trying might be to spend some time improvising, doesn’t matter what notes, little phrases using the rhythms you feel inside yourself. I am sure you don’t stop to think about the rhythms of your speech, so you could start with imitating those. If the man next door is hammering, imitate its pattern using any notes. The urban environment, in particular, is a huge mass of rhythms of every type.

I have encountered this block in people before, and have usually suggested playing more boogie and ragtime, but perhaps we are attempting to solve matters from the outside in instead of from the inside out.


"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766520
09/19/18 06:00 PM
09/19/18 06:00 PM
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Find a (good) drum teacher who actually works as a drummer and explain what you want.

Solving problems like you (the OP) describes is what they do.


Piano teacher.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Ted] #2766532
09/19/18 06:46 PM
09/19/18 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted
Perhaps trying to intellectually relate rhythm to external things such as notation, counting and metronomes might not be the easiest way to go. I have always found rhythm to be a deeply internal, almost physical sensation, felt first and represented second. It resides everywhere in daily life within innumerable processes..


+1. And notation can only rather coarsely quantize rhythm into halves, quarters, eighths, etc. It's at best an approximation of how music should sound.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766553
09/19/18 08:42 PM
09/19/18 08:42 PM
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I have had a few problems with timing, choosing to ignore the problem in part because of poor teaching, but also thinking it would just come like some sixth sense. I was also unable to use the metronome and even now close to six years of piano there are still some things that I have not got to grips with. Probably the biggest of those is not having a good internal sense of timing. However my teacher reminded me just today that it was drilled into her for years by her teachers before she started to get it.

The solution for me has always been to go back to the most basic thing I can do and slow down to a snails pace. Naturally I do scales and arpeggios (counting all the while) but I also do a fair bit of clapping exercises away from the piano. BTW melodic dictation is something you have to work at as a separate skill. Just being able to clap any rhythm does not mean when you hear a rhythm without seeing it you can easily identify it.

Originally Posted by michaelvi

The only blame I hear all the time - "you don't count!!!". I am trying to count... To my hearing it appears correct, but when I look at those graphs drawn in DAW software I ONLY VISUALLY see that real nightmare...


counting your own playing can be difficult until you know the piece inside out, back to front which can take many months before you are at that stage. You will have to make friends with the metronome at some stage and it is possible to get over your issue with them. I had a lot of difficulty as well with the metronome, but as usual I was trying to run before I could walk. So start off with something easy and build on success; it is possible.


Problems with piano are 90% psychological, the other 10% is in your head.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: JohnSprung] #2766557
09/19/18 09:16 PM
09/19/18 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by Ted
Perhaps trying to intellectually relate rhythm to external things such as notation, counting and metronomes might not be the easiest way to go. I have always found rhythm to be a deeply internal, almost physical sensation, felt first and represented second. It resides everywhere in daily life within innumerable processes..


+1. And notation can only rather coarsely quantize rhythm into halves, quarters, eighths, etc. It's at best an approximation of how music should sound.




How relieved I am to know at least one other person realises that. Notation, over a couple of hundred years, has come to represent music itself, and it doesn't, it can't. Composers compose in terms of notation, players play to emulate it, but it is at best merely a very crude approximation, particularly with regard to rhythm, only a very small, simple subset of which can be notated unambiguously at all.


"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766565
09/19/18 10:15 PM
09/19/18 10:15 PM
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Had the same problem for the longest time, aggravated by poor teaching. For the first few decades of my life, I did not even *know* what rhythm was. Sure, I could understand it in a conceptual way but I had no idea what people meant when they said “feel the rhythm.” My dance teacher literally gave up on me at 10 years old.

The turning point was when I changed teachers. At my first lesson, my teacher made me play the 1st Hanon exercise and correctly diagnosed my rhythm issue as I literally gave him a headache with my uneven playing (at a very slow tempo at that). So my first challenge was to play Hanon #1 evenly at 60 bpm with a metronome.

I’d like to add that my teacher gets very physical with rhythm, as he would often march and clap or drum in time to the beat. It was overwhelming at first but I found that I could follow along better with his rhythmic marching than the constant tick of the metronome. But the most important thing was that he would always ask me if I “felt” the rhythm. He would literally stop me if he didn’t “feel the rhythm” from the first measure. From that I got the habit of pausing for a moment to count internally or tapping my lap to the beat before playing (the latter is personally more effective).

As others have said, rhythm/pulse is more of something you feel. I think that like you, I was formerly stuck in the mindset that I needed to hear it...but “hearing rhythm” is only about 1/4 of the picture. Because in order to get the rhythm right you have to get a steady pulse first—so you can’t listen for this pulse, because if you hear it, then it’s already too late! You have to play in time with the pulse so in the best scenario you wouldn’t even hear it.

Anyway, I would suggest you turn on the metronome, slowly at first (60-80 bpm) and spend a few moments trying to internalize and match the feel of the beat by drumming, clapping, etc. before playing the first note. Play something very simple—a scale, Hanon exercise, etc. To make it easier, play one note to for every beat at first. Then graduate to two notes per beat, etc.

It took me months and months of practice before I could get my bearings so don’t get discouraged if you don’t get there quickly.

As an aside, my ability to keep up with the metronome exploded in the last few months after I started doing duets with a friend. Keeping the rhythm in time is essential when playing a duet. So aside from counting I started turning on the metronome all the time when I was practicing my duet part. So the more I practiced, the better my ability to keep up with the metronome became.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766567
09/19/18 10:33 PM
09/19/18 10:33 PM
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Do you spend time listening to music? It could be folk, bluegrass, jazz or rap. Do you dance? Some pianists have a good inner pulse and others do not. It is something that can be learned. Do you run or walk? That is rhythmic. Try counting as you walk, tapping out tunes on the kitchen counter.

You might be interested in this John Mortensen video on how pianists give low priority to rhythmic issues and what to do about it.







Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766575
09/20/18 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Sorry if I am starting new thread on the topic that was probably already discussed here thousand times


Hasn't been.

Originally Posted by michaelvi
Some other exercises, special pieces, etc.?


Throw yourself into ragtime, bossa nova, tango. Butcher it for a long time. Don't stress but try to make it sound like the music you listen to. It will come.

(OTOH, I have like zip pitch sense.)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766587
09/20/18 02:12 AM
09/20/18 02:12 AM
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Quote
. . . I’d like to add that my teacher gets very physical with rhythm, as he would often march and clap or drum in time to the beat. It was overwhelming at first but I found that I could follow along better with his rhythmic marching than the constant tick of the metronome. . .


That makes sense, to me.

My suggestion:

. . Find a local weekly drum circle, and attend regularly for a few months .

Most of them use djembes, and will let you rent one (for the class) for a reasonable cost. (Good djembes are expensive, but you don't need a good one for learning what you need to learn.)

If there's a decent leader, you'll enjoy it, and probably improve your sense of rhythm. I'll bet that the improvement will transfer immediately to your piano playing.






Last edited by Charles Cohen; 09/20/18 02:13 AM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: bennevis] #2766610
09/20/18 07:10 AM
09/20/18 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis

I think it's best if you go back to first principles and start from scratch, with familiar tunes - like Happy Birthday.

Don't look it up - how many beats in a bar/measure? Sing it aloud. Then, with the tune in your head, clap the beats.

Does the tune start on a strong beat or weak one? Once you get the strong beats, you know how many beats to a bar.
.


Happy birthday is a nasty one, not good for starters wink It does not even start on the tonic


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: wouter79] #2766619
09/20/18 07:55 AM
09/20/18 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by wouter79
Originally Posted by bennevis

I think it's best if you go back to first principles and start from scratch, with familiar tunes - like Happy Birthday.

Don't look it up - how many beats in a bar/measure? Sing it aloud. Then, with the tune in your head, clap the beats.

Does the tune start on a strong beat or weak one? Once you get the strong beats, you know how many beats to a bar.
.


Happy birthday is a nasty one, not good for starters wink It does not even start on the tonic

For the purpose of rhythm, it's actually easier than Twinkle, Twinkle and Mary had, because (unlike them) HB has obvious strong regular beats even though the notes are difficult to sing. (Few men can actually sing it in tune).

And everyone knows it, even in deepest darkest Antarctica, unlike Twinkle and Mary. Even the penguins know it wink .


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2766675
09/20/18 12:27 PM
09/20/18 12:27 PM
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This just showed up in my inbox. Words of wisdom from Graham Fitch on developing an inner pulse.

https://practisingthepiano.com/rhythm-develop-steady-pulse/



Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2766723
09/20/18 04:16 PM
09/20/18 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Words of wisdom from Graham Fitch on developing an inner pulse.

https://practisingthepiano.com/rhythm-develop-steady-pulse/

thumb
A choice quote from the article:

At the elementary level it’s the job of the teacher to set the pulse in lessons by counting out aloud energetically one or two bars before every scale, before every piece, and before every time a passage is repeated. After a while, the pupil is invited to set their own pulse by counting out aloud before they play. Laborious? A bit, but well worth the effort. In this way the process becomes internalised, and happens as second nature.

I well remember - at the age of ten - counting aloud with my first teacher, right from the first few minutes of my first lesson. I had to count aloud every piece I learnt for the first few months. She even got me singing the 'counts' in pitch with the notes I was playing - no mean feat for a very self-conscious kid to do in front of a teenage girl of nineteen, as she was then. But if she could do it in front of me, I could do it with her.....

And with a regular pulse drilled into me all those early months of lessons, I never needed to use a metronome all through my student days: my three subsequent teachers never asked me to play alongside the ticking of one, though once or twice, they might just check the tempo with one (but never when I was playing), and then ask me to play at that speed.

Personally, I believe that you can have music without notes, but no music without rhythm, or a pulse of some sort.

Listen to this iconic piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDhwFTw4VnI


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Whizbang] #2766806
09/21/18 05:59 AM
09/21/18 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Whizbang
Throw yourself into ragtime, bossa nova, tango. Butcher it for a long time. Don't stress but try to make it sound like the music you listen to. It will come

Intuitively I understand that this suggestion makes a lot of sense. But unfortunately those are not quite my music genres (with rare exceptions)

Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Do you spend time listening to music? It could be folk, bluegrass, jazz or rap.
I do listen a lot but almost only classical music. Also pop and rock that was popular when I was a teenager (ABBA, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd) but that is also very selectively.

Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Do you dance?
My daughter has spent first 25 years of her live on ballroom dances and even became teacher and international judge. I of course always supported her to the maximum possible extend but still don't understand this kind of art at all. However, things like this one for example hugely impress me (is it possible to "reconstruct" this on piano?)

Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
You might be interested in this John Mortensen video on how pianists give low priority to rhythmic issues and what to do about it.
Very interesting indeed! Thank you!

Thank you all for your answers! This thread did trigger some new thoughts and gave me very good suggestions. I'll try to work further on this issue...


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767276
09/24/18 12:24 AM
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Can you hear how steady and precise his rhythm and inner pulse is?






Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2767380
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Can you hear how steady and precise his rhythm and inner pulse is?

Honestly? No. Sorry... I don't hear (feel, see, whatever) ANY rhythm (or pulse) in this song...


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2767382
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Can you hear how steady and precise his rhythm and inner pulse is?

UPDATE: after 3rd try I think I heard some pulse while he was playing at the beginning, until he started singing. Then I lost it...

Last edited by michaelvi; 09/24/18 01:03 PM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767401
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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767407
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
I do listen a lot but almost only classical music.

If classical music is your forte, this should do the trick thumb:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ORHVroiWHk

And the audience shows you how to clap in time too - even without the conductor's help grin.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: emenelton] #2767416
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Originally Posted by emenelton

For me it is clearly 4/4 but I won't be surprised you you tell me I am wrong


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767437
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Great subject! Really insightful comments and instructive links - thanks. I am only 4 months in and started doing eighth notes which exposed a rhythmic weakness. I am either counting or using metronome on everything now! I'm pretty stubborn when I put my mind to something so it will come....it has to come...


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2767440
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Do you spend time listening to music? It could be folk, bluegrass, jazz or rap. Do you dance? Some pianists have a good inner pulse and others do not. It is something that can be learned. Do you run or walk? That is rhythmic. Try counting as you walk, tapping out tunes on the kitchen counter.

You might be interested in this John Mortensen video on how pianists give low priority to rhythmic issues and what to do about it.






Thank you so much for posting this. He sounds great. I have subscribed to his channel now.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767441
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I agree with all that said count out loud. That is the only way I could seem to learn.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767448
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Can you hear how steady and precise his rhythm and inner pulse is?

UPDATE: after 3rd try I think I heard some pulse while he was playing at the beginning, until he started singing. Then I lost it...

Let your foot or hand tap with the music; No need to count or figure out how many beats per measure. Don’t over think it.



Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767459
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Try this piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyiLIIx2sEI It is entertaining and you'll hear the rhythm before the end of it. (I don't know how to make links)

You could acquire a CD for a ballet class. beginner level. Select one where the pianist uses classical music since it is your preferred music. There will be several different rhythms, well accented.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767462
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by emenelton

For me it is clearly 4/4 but I won't be surprised you you tell me I am wrong


Maybe I do that too much but you’ve only been at it two and half years. That is only a short amount of time. I’ve been there. Spend your time on the basics. That tony rice video was so complicated. Take the queen video and count to that while tapping. Count eighths too.

Anyways your absolutely right; it’s 4/4



Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2767520
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Quote
Can you hear how steady and precise his rhythm and inner pulse is?


This is a really tricky example of ""pulse", IMHO !

What he's done is to minimize (eliminate?) the _dynamics_ that mark the "strong beat" of the 4/4 rhythm. So Michaelvi's comment -- "There's a pulse?" -- is understandable.

But that rhythm shows up very strongly if you listen to the _melodic pattern_ of his arpeggiated playing. Once or twice per measure, the lowest note of the guitar pattern (for whatever chord he's playing) falls on the "1" or the "3". It's not accented much (if at all); you have to listen for the chord changes.

And once you hear that, and listen for it, you realize that it's rock-steady playing.

Thanks !


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767535
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This thread (both the OP's posts and some of the replies) has me scratching my head wondering whether adult beginners really do jump in at the deep end and believe they will be able to swim immediately, and if they can't, believe that something is wrong confused.

OK, on that basis, here's an easy-peasy piece with a clear rhythm grin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c92Nmg6gTIo

Alternatively, one might admit that the ability to swim isn't something you're born with (because we haven't evolved into fish yet), and thus need to take lessons and learn it properly.

From something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P1HCW2CwkQ

then this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82haNPKa1W0

And exercises like this is as fast as you need to go. One thing at a time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5N9TgILtYg


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767547
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Rhythm was never a metronome; rhythm was never a counting ; rhythm is a part of national culture! Or you join her, or you ask how to develop a sense of rhythm!


Last edited by Nahum; 09/25/18 10:35 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: bennevis] #2767558
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Originally Posted by bennevis
This thread (both the OP's posts and some of the replies) has me scratching my head wondering whether adult beginners really do jump in at the deep end
OK, on that basis, here's an easy-peasy piece with a clear rhythm grin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c92Nmg6gTIo



That’s a very funny video.

In my opinion, an adult that is smart in other things but is a beginner at playing a musical instrument, thinks their rational upper level thought processes, which actually are a distraction, will allow them to think themselves into acquiring a new skill like playing in time.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767567
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Trying to remember how I learned this.

Physically with a dash of brain thrown in, rather than the other way around, I guess.

In band we did a lot of counting out loud - one-two-three-four for quarter notes, one-and-two-and-three-and-four-and for eight notes, one-ee-and-a-two-ee-and-a-three-ee-and-a for sixteenth notes. speaking out loud turned it from a mathematical exercise into a physical experience.

Dance was also helpful - because at the level I was at, it was kept simple - big movement on the strong beat of the measure, what ever that beat happened to be.

Still is helpful - I think I mentioned at one point that I indulge myself in a flamenco lesson every now and then. Interesting - the rhythm there gets nuts, and the counting conventions are not intuitive at first - certain dance forms will start on 12 rather than 1, for example. My teacher encourages us to "sing it, don't count it", and that does help in many circumstances.

One other thing I notice when listening to professionals is that if they're playing really fast, I loose my sense of the details of the rhythm, even though the speed may actually bring out the underlying pulse better. So I would definitely use simple music while trying to get my bearings.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Medved1] #2767587
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Originally Posted by Medved1
Trying to remember how I learned this.

Physically with a dash of brain thrown in, rather than the other way around, I guess.

counting out loud -

one-two-three-four for quarter notes, one-and-two-and-three-and-four-and for eight notes, one-ee-and-a-two-ee-and-a-three-ee-and-a for sixteenth notes.

speaking out loud turned it from a mathematical exercise into a physical experience.

So I would definitely use simple music while trying to get my bearings.



It’s arguable that rhythm is not a skill but a primitive instinct

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: emenelton] #2767593
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Originally Posted by emenelton

It’s arguable that rhythm is not a skill but a primitive instinct

And the more the mind interferes, the more it hinders to the rhythm.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767655
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I think I would split the difference on that. Rhythm might have something to do with the reptilian brain. But I don't find that it does much for me unless I layer on some structure.

The structure that works for me (your mileage may vary) uses a physical experience to simplify the counting, so I can actually do the thing, repeat it on demand, and not find myself stuck in a kind of hyper-speed loop where my hands, eyes, ears, and counting are spinning off into different dimensions - each perhaps coherent by itself, but losing any connection with each other.

You could try all kinds of modalities - even walking in time to music, or walking while singing, really anything that combines some music you like with a repetitive activity - might give you a useful base of understanding. Eventually, the need for the physical anchor - counting out loud, patting one hand on the piano lid while the other one plays, tapping the foot, etc - gets less. But it does help at the beginning, and I still use those tools a lot when confronted with a sea of 16th notes.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767657
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Good advice, Medved. Adding a physical movement to the counting is IMHO essential. That is why I require students to count OUT LOUD very loudly...even counting under their breath or whispering does not work.

Also, I would add that for multi-note rhythms saying a common phrase that matches the notes can be very helpful. For example, for 4 eighth notes, I use "huckleberry" or "avocado" -- four syllable words for 4 note beats. Like Trip- O - Let for triplets.

Here is a chart that has many varieties of this concept:

http://i.stack.imgur.com/JUzLM.jpg


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767663
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Originally Posted by rocket88

Here is a chart that has many varieties of this concept:

http://i.stack.imgur.com/JUzLM.jpg
Beautiful advice! To maximize the effect, you can pronounce these words through melodica, as I wrote in http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2572313/re-jazz-melodica-tutorial.html#Post2572313 (and further)

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767672
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Thinking about it I think my rhythmic sense must have been kept up/improved by my habit of walking a lot with different kind of music in my earphones. During the 25 or so years of not actively doing any music studies I always had music playing when moving around. And I always try to fit my steps to the pulse of the music. I think I also sometimes unconsciously count in my head. While it is a "passive" way of practicing I think it is one reason that I found it so easy to work with rhythm after returning to piano.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: rocket88] #2767719
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Originally Posted by rocket88
Adding a physical movement to the counting is IMHO essential. That is why I require students to count OUT LOUD very loudly...even counting under their breath or whispering does not work.


thumb

Self-consciousness has no place when you're learning music, no matter how silly you feel doing things to develop your musicality. I learnt that rapidly when I had to count aloud, then eventually sing the beats "One, two, three, four" and " one and two and three and four" - in front of my female teacher - when I started piano lessons. But if she could sing the beats in front of me as if it was the most natural thing in the world, so could I in front of her - and then by myself when I was practicing the pieces.

And in any case, it was all necessary for the aural skills part of the ABRSM exams, when I had to sing notes and tunes and beat time.

Here are 100+ teenagers doing all that rhythmic stuff - and slapping themselves, and making funny noises wink - in front of five thousand people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo97ztKppIw

The whole piece (specially composed for the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain) is reliant on the ability to keep time and count beats.

I used to (try to) beat time to any piece I heard on the radio, which at the time were all unfamiliar to me. Everything from the Emperor Concerto (easy) to Le sacre du printemps (impossible....... grin).

Practicing without thinking of it as 'practicing' is the key to achieving eventual mastery.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: bennevis] #2767734
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by rocket88
Adding a physical movement to the counting is IMHO essential. That is why I require students to count OUT LOUD very loudly...even counting under their breath or whispering does not work.


thumb

Self-consciousness has no place when you're learning music, no matter how silly you feel doing things to develop your musicality. I learnt that rapidly when I had to count aloud, then eventually sing the beats "One, two, three, four" and " one and two and three and four" - in front of my female teacher - when I started piano lessons. But if she could sing the beats in front of me as if it was the most natural thing in the world, so could I in front of her - and then by myself when I was practicing the pieces.



Bennevis, excellent point. For a long time I felt silly using my entire body to play the piano instead of suffering by being stiff and only using my hands.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767863
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Adante=walking tempo (pretty sure)

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767865
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I’m not sure if the OP is still around but here is Eric Clapton - do you feel the beat?




Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: emenelton] #2767870
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Originally Posted by emenelton
Adante=walking tempo (pretty sure)

I walk much faster than I'd ever play Andante wink

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: outo] #2767872
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by emenelton
Adante=walking tempo (pretty sure)

I walk much faster than I'd ever play Andante wink


adante translates or means - at a walking pace

but your relaying of how you walk and feel the music goes hand in ‘foot’ haha with how tempo and meter are derived from our ‘gait’

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2768125
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
I’m not sure if the OP is still around
I am around but mainly at weekend days smile I want to apologize to everyone who is trying to help me here but does not see my reaction - on working days I can occasionally briefly drop in here, but I can’t completely switch to writing posts

Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
here is Eric Clapton - do you feel the beat?
Sorry again, not at all. And again, before he started singing I was able to hear something (not beat exactly but something), with this singing - ... I am 1000 times sorry, don't want to offend anyone, but I don't hear any music, not just beat.. Sorry again, this is just my personal musical preferences...

Originally Posted by Nahum
the more the mind interferes, the more it hinders to the rhythm.
Don't understand at all what you mean here but couldn’t agree more! So the question is: how to deactivate (or suspend) this mind and activate other mechanisms which are more appropriate for the subject - rhythm.


Originally Posted by Dreamingstill
Try this piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyiLIIx2sEI It is entertaining and you'll hear the rhythm before the end of it. (I don't know how to make links)

You could acquire a CD for a ballet class. beginner level. Select one where the pianist uses classical music since it is your preferred music. There will be several different rhythms, well accented.
Thank you for interesting interpretation! Boléro is one of those "triggers" which attracted my attention to music 40 years ago and it is still in my favorite list. It may sound untrue but I can play it from very beginning to very end, entirely, in my head (that specific version from that vinyl where everything began...). But I cannot tell what time signature it is. If I will clap my shoulder it will be uneven and clapping pattern will change back and forth many times during this play.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768150
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Originally Posted by michaelvi


Originally Posted by Nahum
the more the mind interferes, the more it hinders to the rhythm.
Don't understand at all what you mean here but couldn’t agree more! So the question is: how to deactivate (or suspend) this mind and activate other mechanisms which are more appropriate for the subject - rhythm.

You have already received some answers to your question: walking, dancing are not connected with intellectual activity, but with a sense of rhythm inside the body, and turning it into a percussion instrument. This body drumming is an African tradition (in the past), not European. E.J. Dalcroze was the first who drew attention to this before he developed his revolutionary system of rhythmic education in the early 20th century.
The rhythmic feeling has 2 sources: natural, genetically pledged inside us , and social, when the individual carries within himself the rhythm of whole community. It follows a simple natural conclusion: the improvement of rhythmic hearing is obliged to occur in a group way! If someone is unsure of this, he can ask the participants of this choir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_1ZE7Rwcg - "Who of them trained with the metronome?"

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Originally Posted by Nahum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_1ZE7Rwcg - "Who of them trained with the metronome?"

Not only is this choir singing with great rhythm but their bodies are also moving together as one. Maybe it is possible that if you grow up never hearing music you have a difficult time feeling the rhythm. It’s kind of puzzling and interesting at the same time.



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Thank you Nahum. Yes, probably my approach to this problem is too analytical, as many other pointed out here. Well, I admit that I am a mathematician by nature. But somehow this fact didn't disturb my tone hearing... Ok, I understood that need to develop other side of my brain smile

Thank you everybody here! Many interesting ideas and tips! They will definitely help me to work on this issue.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768203
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Originally Posted by Nahum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_1ZE7Rwcg - "Who of them trained with the metronome?"



We have no idea how they trained. It is a finished performance. Rehearsals can be very different than the final performance, and the practising of individual musicians between rehearsals is different again. And then you need to know what abilities each musician brought into the choir prior to joining it, and how they got those abilities. Most of us here are people who are learners, so we are at the stage of getting those abilities. "Training with the metronome" would also need to be explained. The metronome is a tool, and a tool can be used in many ways. I've watched quite a few tutorials on drumming, and the metronome was very much in the picture. But how are you using that metronome, and when?

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: rocket88] #2768206
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Originally Posted by rocket88
Find a (good) drum teacher who actually works as a drummer and explain what you want.

Solving problems like you (the OP) describes is what they do.


This was my advice (overlooked frown ) early on in this thread, but I still stand by it...Getting your body to accurately move to the rhythm is the essence of drumming, and a good drum teacher can instill that in you much much faster than you can by yourself.

Many music teachers, when asked what second instrument one should study, recommend drums. And, because the piano is both a string instrument and a percussion instrument, Keith Jarrett said, when asked what kind of instrument he played, he replied that he plays drums, and has 88 of them.


Piano teacher.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768209
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I actually dont understand the problem and don't understand this thread at all.

I personally don't think it is an easy thing to be able to listen an analyse a piece of heard music.

Aside from something very obvious with a beat, e.g. a waltz, I generally can tell you nothing about a heard piece of music.

As an aside: have a listen to a famous waltz smile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCnQDUSO4I

I really think that it is very difficult and after 14 or so years of lessons I really have never heard of 'rhythm hearing' is a required or necessary skill to learn for piano development.

Not being able to carry out complex rhythms on a piano is quite a different problem.

I normally would buy a sight reading book and do the clapping exercises in this is what helped me.

https://www.musicroom.com/product-d...7ArREAQYAyABEgIQdfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768211
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As we're all now agreed that everyone has innate rhythm, if only we allow our bodies (& possibly grey matter) to get on with being innately rhythmic instead of trying to interfere by actually learning to do it from experts wink , I recommend clapping to this simple song. That typically Latin rhythmic figure of alternating 6/8 and 3/4 is innate in all our bones, so let the bones get on with it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3-Sd1MPlhk

Here's Lenny teaching a famous Spanish tenor how to sing a simple song, which is of course innate in his bones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z85iqfprcRI


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768254
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Originally Posted by rocket88
Originally Posted by rocket88
Find a (good) drum teacher who actually works as a drummer and explain what you want.

Solving problems like you (the OP) describes is what they do.


This was my advice (overlooked frown )
Not at all. Sorry that I somehow left it without response but I stopped at it first time. I even spent some time searching for such teacher in local inet segment. But my problem is that I can only take lessons during weekends... I was lucky enough that my wife's sister happens to be piano teacher and she agreed to work with me on Saturdays smile

Originally Posted by Moo :)
I personally don't think it is an easy thing to be able to listen an analyse a piece of heard music.
...
Not being able to carry out complex rhythms on a piano is quite a different problem.

I normally would buy a sight reading book and do the clapping exercises in this is what helped me.

https://www.musicroom.com/product-d...7ArREAQYAyABEgIQdfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Yes, somehow I ended up with talking about inability to "analyse a piece of heard music" while "to carry out ... rhythms on a piano" is actual description of my problem. As I wrote in first post in this thread THAT is main complain that I receive when I play - "you don't count". Meaning that I am not carrying out rhythms. But to carry them out I first need to recognize them (or to know them, or to feel them), no? Let's leave aside the fact that it is denoted on the score that I am learning - maybe I don't yet read everything from a music sheet. But my teacher plays those pieces for me before asking me to learn them. Besides, many of them I can hear or even already heard a lot of times in professional performances. While I (relatively) easily "recall" what notes I need to play and I hear my notes mistakes IMMEDIATELY when I make them, I do not hear rhythm mistakes AT ALL - that's what bothers me. Thus my conclusion that I need to find a way(s) to train my rhythm sense. And I did get number of suggestions in this thread smile
By the way here is interesting, or rather even more bothering fact about my good tone hearing: when I was about 5 years old my parents wanted a music education for me. I had some preliminary test in musical school and the diagnosis was "musically deaf" - they played a notes on a piano and asked me to name them. So I avoided the terrible fate of suffering piano lessons. And what happened later? My teacher says that after decades of listening music hours every day my hearing was developed. But hey, the time I spent listening notes is exactly the same as time that was listening rhythms!!! Now I think this thread explained me the difference. Thank you all again!


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768281
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Many people do not seem to hear problems with pulse consistency themselves while they play, that is why they record and listen back. I think to be able to hear oneself go off pulse is either an learned skill or a natural ability. I don't really know where I got it, but it's like having a metronome ticking in the back of my head constantly. And it was really difficult for me in the beginning to go on playing if I noticed myself going off pulse so have had to practice ignoring little inconsistencies and resetting the inner metronome while they happen. But I still tend to get upset about missing the beat even slightly or panic if I have trouble following this internal ticking. So maybe not necessarily only positive to be too good in this type of rhythmic awareness. It's like having a very strict ear for pitch, a note out of tune on the piano can throw one off.

Anyway, I think the ability to maintain pulse should be somewhat internal and can be improved by physical exercises mentioned above. But the ability to understand how to play and count different meters is more of a theoretical skill and can be mathematically solved. I am not sure if you have trouble with only the former?

BTW Researchers have found people who actually are "tone deaf" or "rhythm challenged". These can be actual disabilities, but are very rare. Usually things can always be improved with suitable methods.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: outo] #2768300
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Originally Posted by outo
the ability to maintain pulse should be somewhat internal and can be improved by physical exercises mentioned above. But the ability to understand how to play and count different meters is more of a theoretical skill and can be mathematically solved. I am not sure if you have trouble with only the former?
I definitely have trouble with maintaining internal pulse. About theoretical understanding of this stuff - you know, I cannot be certain in anything I will say here, but I think I don't have any problems with rhythms in theory. Or maybe I do and just don't realize it.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768313
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Originally Posted by keystring
[


We have no idea how they trained. [/quote] You can ask, for example, the participants of this choir:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c97qnpWA5qE

Originally Posted by Moo :)

after 14 or so years of lessons I really have never heard of 'rhythm hearing' is a required or necessary skill to learn for piano development.


"Rhythmic ear " refers to the field of perception and reproduction of rhythm. It hardly develops the piano, but development of it develops also the rhythmic performance on the piano - certainly.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768316
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by outo
the ability to maintain pulse should be somewhat internal and can be improved by physical exercises mentioned above. But the ability to understand how to play and count different meters is more of a theoretical skill and can be mathematically solved. I am not sure if you have trouble with only the former?
I definitely have trouble with maintaining internal pulse. About theoretical understanding of this stuff - you know, I cannot be certain in anything I will say here, but I think I don't have any problems with rhythms in theory. Or maybe I do and just don't realize it.


If you can correctly interpret the meter, know where the strong and weak beats are and can correctly count all the notes in a measure, you are fine. And do this to any new score without hearing the music first of course. I know people who determine the rhythm in their playing completely by ear from listening to a recording. They cannot necessarily count at all and cannot learn a piece with a more complicated rhythm straight from the score.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768317
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One of the problems of the external metronome : he does not provide automatically a quick entry into the rhythm, if his model does not immediately appear in the mind; and also allows you to continue to play with him quite non-rhythmically . My new pupil - bass player has both of these problems.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: bennevis] #2768319
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Here's Lenny teaching a famous Spanish tenor how to sing a simple song, which is of course innate in his bones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z85iqfprcRI

This is Leonard Bernstein working with Carreras on his (Bernstein's) interpretation of a song which is not really that simple, in a rehearsal. he is not teaching a top singer but working with him, and that singer has all the training he needs to be able to work with the maestro - a thing which most of us hardly have.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768320
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Quote
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
[


We have no idea how they trained.
You can ask, for example, the participants of this choir:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c97qnpWA5qE



You have quoted just about nothing of what I wrote, nor responded to any of the ideas. Now you have reiterated the same thing that I was responding to before, only with a different choir. This could go in circles, where if I respond with the same ideas, you will pull out another choir, and another, and another, and again say to ask the members of the choir ... which is unlikely that we can do.

So again:

1. This is a complete performance after rehearsal. A performance is not like a rehearsal.
2. We don't know how they rehearsed.
3. We don't know how each choir member practised between rehearsals.
4. We don't know what kind of (years of) prior training each choir member had before joining that choir, practising between rehearsals using the training they received, which culminated in that performance.

The biggest mistake that happens is hearing a performance, and trying to produce the finished product ourselves instead of going through the steps. For a learner those steps don't just involve learning to play the piece. It also involves getting the underlying skills over time.

Metronome use may or may not be part of it, but again ... it is HOW and WHEN you use that tool.

Sometime basic knowledge of note values can get in the way, and remain a hidden impediment. This was my case. There were whole, half, quarter, eighth and really fast notes. The dotted quarter + eighth was a vague "hop and skip". When I got that sorted out and gained some understanding, then I could work out rhythms both intellectually and instinctively, and meld the two. At times the metronome played a part; but not by playing while having it tick in the background.

Last edited by keystring; 09/29/18 06:46 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768321
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Originally Posted by Nahum
One of the problems of the external metronome : he does not provide automatically a quick entry into the rhythm, if his model does not immediately appear in the mind; and also allows you to continue to play with him quite non-rhythmically . My new pupil - bass player has both of these problems.


If you use the metronome that way, like a drummer. You can use the metronome to understand things about note values and tempi. You can turn on the metronome, check what the tempo is, turn it off again, play for a while, turn it on and see if you have accidentally sped up. It depends on how you use it, and when you use it.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768333
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Originally Posted by keystring
[

You have quoted just about nothing of what I wrote, nor responded to any of the ideas. Now you have reiterated the same thing that I was responding to before, only with a different choir. This could go in circles, where if I respond with the same ideas, you will pull out another choir, and another, and another, and again say to ask the members of the choir ... which is unlikely that we can do.

So again:

1. This is a complete performance after rehearsal. A performance is not like a rehearsal.
2. We don't know how they rehearsed.
3. We don't know how each choir member practised between rehearsals.
4. We don't know what kind of (years of) prior training each choir member had before joining that choir, practising between rehearsals using the training they received, which culminated in that performance. .


I cannot conduct a dialogue like this: you write quickly thousands of letters, 20-30 times faster than my speed. So I focused on one idea:" Who trained them with the metronome? " To answer this question, you need to talk either with a member of such a choir, or with someone who has played with them.For your information, I belong to the second category: we have communities of " Black Hebrew" (mainly from Chicago and LA), as well as people from Ethiopia, with whom I had experience of performances, records, and there were some who I was learning to play the piano. Of course, each community has its own choirs and its own orchestras - very cool!
Repeatedly I asked - from the pedagogical interest, whether ever worked with a metronome; and always had the same answer: "NEVER!"

Last edited by Nahum; 09/29/18 07:44 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768336
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by rocket88
Originally Posted by rocket88
Find a (good) drum teacher who actually works as a drummer and explain what you want.

Solving problems like you (the OP) describes is what they do.


This was my advice (overlooked frown )
Not at all. Sorry that I somehow left it without response but I stopped at it first time. I even spent some time searching for such teacher in local inet segment. But my problem is that I can only take lessons during weekends... I was lucky enough that my wife's sister happens to be piano teacher and she agreed to work with me on Saturdays smile


Thanks for the clarification.


Piano teacher.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: bennevis] #2768350
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Originally Posted by bennevis
(BTW, that's also exactly what conductors do with their RH grin).
BTW this is an interesting idea - to have a conductor smile Let's imagine that a conductor stands in front of me when I play piano but works only with his/her right hand. Do you think it will help me to keep rhythm (pulse, etc.)?


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768352
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by bennevis
(BTW, that's also exactly what conductors do with their RH grin).
BTW this is an interesting idea - to have a conductor smile Let's imagine that a conductor stands in front of me when I play piano but works only with his/her right hand. Do you think it will help me to keep rhythm (pulse, etc.)?


I would suggest that you learn to use the metronome as your conductor, as using a real person for this role is only a short-term solution which will not give you the skills you need in the long-term. A conductor is working with orchestra members that all have an independent sense of good rhythm, he is just coordinating that and directing accelarandos, ritards and . rubato. Count out loud and use the metronome. There are no easy fixes but dedicated work ...., just like every problem in playing

Last edited by dogperson; 09/29/18 09:28 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768355
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
[quote=bennevis](BTW, that's also exactly what conductors do with their RH


--

10:25

Last edited by Nahum; 09/29/18 09:35 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768356
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Originally Posted by Nahum
I cannot conduct a dialogue like this: you write quickly thousands of letters, 20-30 times faster than my speed.

You don't need to type or write my speed. Take your time. Don't answer minutes after. Address one point at a time. You can do it. smile

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: keystring] #2768357
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Originally Posted by keystring

You don't need to type or write my speed. Take your time. Don't answer minutes after. Address one point at a time. You can do it. smile
Unfortunately, you do not understand my contradictions between the speed of thinking, the speed of writing and the weakened short-term memory.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: dogperson] #2768363
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by bennevis
(BTW, that's also exactly what conductors do with their RH grin).
BTW this is an interesting idea - to have a conductor smile Let's imagine that a conductor stands in front of me when I play piano but works only with his/her right hand. Do you think it will help me to keep rhythm (pulse, etc.)?


I would suggest that you learn to use the metronome as your conductor, as using a real person for this role is only a short-term solution which will not give you the skills you need in the long-term.
I understand that. My question was: let's IMAGINE I have A conductor which can work with me every time I practice piano for long enough time, yes performing that single role only - RH. It was mentioned here several times that metronome is not that easy to work with, when I hear metronome beat it is too late, etc. As I wrote in my first post here I can easily SEE how my playing follows rhythm (or rather doesn't) - in DAW software. I am using PC anyway (for DAW, scores, some memos on the desktop). So if I have something visually guiding (conducting) me on the same screen... For the time I practicing of course. Should this give some results over a time...


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768366
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
[So if I have something visually guiding (conducting) me on the same screen...

visual metronome


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768370
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by michaelvi
[So if I have something visually guiding (conducting) me on the same screen...

visual metronome

Thank you!!! I was just about launching my development environment (SW) and starting a new small project, that I was going to (code-)name "Visual Metronome" smile smile smile


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768371
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by michaelvi
[So if I have something visually guiding (conducting) me on the same screen...

visual metronome

Thank you!!! I was just about launching my development environment (SW) and starting a new small project, that I was going to (code-)name "Visual Metronome" smile smile smile

Well, don't let my link stop you from coding up something yourself! A simple visual metronome might be a nice simple/self-contained iOS or Android project. Consider that most cellphones have a light that can be used as a flash for photography. That might work in nicely w/ respect to a visual metronome, especially if you leave your cell connected to a charger so the battery doesn't drain.

BTW, something I've been thinking about coding up myself is an iOS/Android metronome app which allows the tempo to change mid-piece. Don't know how exactly to implement that, whether it should be based on a pre-established "profile" counted from a synchronization point (button press), or if it should be based on a verbal command "slow down, speed up", or something else...


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768375
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Before you lay out money for a laser metronome, you should check whether it is suitable at all for you . For example, the metronome of visual type does not suit me absolutely, creating for me the effect of rhythmic delay and smearing. Physical pulsation is another matter.
Pulse metronome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_nLhiYdfuY

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768384
09/29/18 12:29 PM
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I have been using the Boss Dr. Beat metronome that will count out loud for you, find it very helpful when learning.
https://www.boss.info/us/products/db-90/


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768388
09/29/18 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
don't let my link stop you from coding up something yourself!
It probably won't at least because that laser metronome is out of stock smile

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Consider that most cellphones have a light that can be used as a flash for photography
I think that flash will have the same problem - when it flashes it is already too late. I have two "metronome leds" in my DP (see signature) - one for strong and one for weak beat. It does have this same problem. Istead, I very much like this approach - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UphAzryVpY&feature=youtu.be&t=59 and it looks like someone already followed it in a software Round Rhythm. A conductor's RH doesn't just briefly appear and disappear like those audible metronome ticks or light flashes (for me - in unpredictable points of time). It is visible all the time and it's movement help you to get prepared and probably its speed of movement helps you to adjust speed of something there in your body that generates your pulses (but I might be wrong in my theoretical suspicions)

Another approach could be similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB-8vVyUup0 What does he have on his screen?

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Don't know how exactly to implement that, whether it should be based on a pre-established "profile" counted from a synchronization point (button press), or if it should be based on a verbal command "slow down, speed up", or something else...
IMHO those are already secondary details (in programmer's language: you can design several different controllers and add even more later once a good model and at least a basic view are in place) Sometimes I saw performances where conductors started counting rhythm (am I using right terminology?) with their RH before musicians start playing. So I don't think this app needs a special sync mechanism- just start it, let it "play" one or two measures alone and then join it with your piano smile

Originally Posted by Nahum
Physical pulsation is another matter.
Pulse metronome
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_nLhiYdfuY

Nice gadget Nahum. But I am already sitting in front of a monitor. Is there something that can be done by this gadget and cannot be done by a PC? (Sorry if I am missing your point)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768393
09/29/18 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Don't know how exactly to implement that, whether it should be based on a pre-established "profile" counted from a synchronization point (button press), or if it should be based on a verbal command "slow down, speed up", or something else...
IMHO those are already secondary details (in programmer's language: you can design several different controllers and add even more later once a good model and at least a basic view are in place) Sometimes I saw performances where conductors started counting rhythm (am I using right terminology?) with their RH before musicians start playing. So I don't think this app needs a special sync mechanism- just start it, let it "play" one or two measures alone and then join it with your piano smile

I don't think we are on the same wavelength on what I am thinking of as a tempo adjustment feature for a metronome. For example, let's say we have a 16 measure piece of music where the last two measures have ritardando. If the metronome app implements a profile with ritardando in measures 15 and 16, but there is no synchronization, then the ritardando for the metronome might start when you are actually playing measure 14 or measure 16, if the first measure isn't synchronized. So yes, some form of synchronization is required. Perhaps the best synchronization is the musical score itself, but this is already much more advanced then I have the time (and possibly the ability) to code.

The simplest mechanism might be one where on-demand (say, via verbal command), you tell the metronome to slow down or speed up. Then no synchronization is required. You turn the metronome on. You start playing when you want. and you command it to slow down or speed up when desired (obviously in a hands-free way, so verbal is good).


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768394
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
[
Nice gadget Nahum.
It's instead of a dwarf, who would poke rhythmically his finger in your hip ( or near ) laugh

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768416
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To OP: I am a very visual person myself, but I find that a visual metronome or representation of beats has had little effect on my ability to keep a beat, much less to feel it. It's not a clock face, but a traditional metronome already has a visual way of tracking the beat (the swinging arm). I used a digital version of that (the app Practice+ on iOS) at the beginning but I found I was just relying on the visual cue which helped a tiny bit but did not really help me keep a steady internal pulse.

(...a bit of a segue..

Before I started piano I was addicted to rhythm games. Despite having no sense of rhythm I could get high scores because the all the "notes values" were represented visually by the game. You would know when to press a note/button because the game clearly shows you when to do it. Because of that I could play the game even with the volume on mute. There was even an incident where I beat a professional drummer on a drum game (that was hilarious). But even after hundreds of hours playing those games I did not develop any internal sense of rhythm!

There is one game I know though that is pulse-sensitive: HarmoKnight on 3DS. I played it a bit last week after having dropped it years back (it got too tough) and was surprised how much on-beat I was. I beat the boss on the first try, LOL! So I have validation that in the intervening years I my sense of rhythm has indeed improved.

...end segue)

I wonder why you're not asking your teacher for help in developing your internal pulse and abiliy to keep rhythm? My teacher's help has been invaluable to me in that regard. He told me which exact areas my rhythm was off, and clapped, marched, turned on the metronome etc. while I was redoing the problem areas. He assigned easy technical exercises where the main objective was to keep a steady beat. His feedback was also a major help so I knew whether I was on the right track (as in the beginning I could not feel the beat so I could also not evaluate whether I was doing OK or not!) Also his instructions and suggestions have all been concrete (i.e. slowing down and speeding up on measures 20 and 22, clap or tap the beat and feel it before starting) and not just "you don't count".



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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768429
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
For example, let's say we have a 16 measure piece of music where the last two measures have ritardando. If the metronome app implements a profile with ritardando in measures 15 and 16, but there is no synchronization, then the ritardando for the metronome might start when you are actually playing measure 14 or measure 16, if the first measure isn't synchronized. So yes, some form of synchronization is required. Perhaps the best synchronization is the musical score itself, but this is already much more advanced then I have the time (and possibly the ability) to code.

The simplest mechanism might be one where on-demand (say, via verbal command), you tell the metronome to slow down or speed up. Then no synchronization is required. You turn the metronome on. You start playing when you want. and you command it to slow down or speed up when desired (obviously in a hands-free way, so verbal is good).
Ok, that explains why you need sync or some kind of hads-free command like voice (a pedal or a wheel under left foot? - I am assuming such app is not going to be used by advanced players who use piano's left pedal). What about the following solution for your example: you create a profile according to it but add one or two extra measures at the beginning, so 17 or 18 measures in profile. First one or two are played by app only, then goto my previous post smile


Originally Posted by marimorimo
.. I find that a visual metronome or representation of beats has had little effect on my ability to keep a beat, much less to feel it.
This is discouraging... I wanted to code an app that could help me and maybe others... smile


Originally Posted by marimorimo
I wonder why you're not asking your teacher for help in developing your internal pulse and abiliy to keep rhythm? My teacher's help has been invaluable to me in that regard. He told me which exact areas my rhythm was off, and clapped, marched, turned on the metronome etc. while I was redoing the problem areas. He assigned easy technical exercises where the main objective was to keep a steady beat. His feedback was also a major help so I knew whether I was on the right track (as in the beginning I could not feel the beat so I could also not evaluate whether I was doing OK or not!) Also his instructions and suggestions have all been concrete (i.e. slowing down and speeding up on measures 20 and 22, clap or tap the beat and feel it before starting) and not just "you don't count".
She tries to teach me. Also giving appropriate assignments. But I am failing with those assignments (my home work). But she cannot spend unlimited time with me. So I am trying to help her to push this stone, let's put it this way...


Last edited by michaelvi; 09/29/18 04:16 PM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768433
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In this thread I was given many playing and singing samples from Youtube. May I also give some sample and ask a question:
Is it just a consequence of my rhythmic deafness or anyone will understand what I mean saying that:

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768443
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Originally Posted by Michaelvi

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music.

Agreed that this amateur pianist maintains good rhythm throughout.

Originally Posted by Michaelvi
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...

Say what? She destroys the rhythmic pattern? This pianist maintains great rhythm throughout.

The two pianists are playing different transcriptions of the same piece, one by Liszt and other by Bernstein.



Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2768458
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Originally Posted by Michaelvi

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music.

Agreed that this amateur pianist maintains good rhythm throughout.

Originally Posted by Michaelvi
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...

Say what? She destroys the rhythmic pattern? This pianist maintains great rhythm throughout.

The two pianists are playing different transcriptions of the same piece, one by Liszt and other by Bernstein.



+1 I thought the professional did an outstanding job with the transcription!

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768470
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If you use a metronome to check professional recordings you will notice that they don't really maintain perfect metronomic beat all the way through. Yet their playing does not usually sound like the rhythm is off. This is because there are elements of rhythm that are crucial and others that can be flexed. I think it is more difficult to learn the basics of good rhythm with romantic music because it just sounds better when played with some freedom. Baroque music is much better to learn rhythmic stability imo.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768479
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

This is discouraging... I wanted to code an app that could help me and maybe others... smile


[]She tries to teach me. Also giving appropriate assignments. But I am failing with those assignments (my home work). But she cannot spend unlimited time with me. So I am trying to help her to push this stone, let's put it this way...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr8-AL9XOOY&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw&index=35

Last edited by Nahum; 09/30/18 01:39 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2768500
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Originally Posted by Michaelvi

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music.

Agreed that this amateur pianist maintains good rhythm throughout.

Originally Posted by Michaelvi
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...

Say what? She destroys the rhythmic pattern? This pianist maintains great rhythm throughout.

The two pianists are playing different transcriptions of the same piece, one by Liszt and other by Bernstein.


Yes those are different transcriptions, but this time I tried to focus on the rhythm. So, you answer is that my feeling is a consequence of my rhythmic deafness. Not surprising frown

Originally Posted by outo
I think it is more difficult to learn the basics of good rhythm with romantic music because it just sounds better when played with some freedom. Baroque music is much better to learn rhythmic stability imo.
Interesting point about romantic music. Agree that when listening baroque a rhythm is heard more clearly (by me)

Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768505
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Originally Posted by michaelvi


Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)

Do you know what to do?

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768517
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by michaelvi


Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)

Do you know what to do?

Not yet (still at work), but I promise you I will report here as soon as get there smile


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768561
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by michaelvi


Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)

Do you know what to do?

Maybe I can guess but don't want to. Would you be so kind to explain what you meant with this video?
(That my piano education is now completed and I am ready to go to a different instrument? smile )
To be serious, I think I can reproduce those simple rhythms on my piano but melodica will be much beyond me.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768566
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Oh my. Where is the Dramamine? Can I get off the swing now?


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768603
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

Maybe I can guess but don't want to. Would you be so kind to explain what you meant with this video?
(That my piano education is now completed and I am ready to go to a different instrument? smile )
To be serious, I think I can reproduce those simple rhythms on my piano but melodica will be much beyond me.


I have to explain (not for the first time): this student has a cerebral abnormality that prevents her from counting, and she was characterized by the performance of music almost without any sense of rhythm. Her previous teacher simply did not know how to solve the problem. This problem can not be solved, but you can go around. Therefore, I suggested that she begin to work with melodica on drumming grooves and rhythmic patterns of tunes .This video is a tiny fragment of our work.

Some of the explanations you can find in my tutorial for the melodica here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2581100/jazz-melodica-tutorial.html

Here are audio examples for this tutorial.

Swing:

https://yadi.sk/d/TE72R0Ho1CMpjQ

Samba :

https://yadi.sk/d/nsI7lEucHDeflw

Here I'm playing exercise № 1 from the book by Bob Stoloff "Scat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcFDyHKVt2s&index=36&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw

michaelvi , for some reason, it seems to me that you will not have a chance to play the piano like that. But these exercises develop strongly rhythm and articulation. Bob Stoloff uses my clips himself.

BTW , my student played on last recital with drummer Stayin Alive of Bee Gees almost without rhythmic mistakes.

Now possible to take Dramamine if someone needs it. But this is at your expense ...

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768617
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Originally Posted by Nahum

I have to explain (not for the first time):

Sorry if I missed your previous explanations.
Interesting stuff Nahum. I'll try to learn it better.
Thank you very much!!!

Originally Posted by Nahum

Now possible to take Dramamine if someone needs it. But this is at your expense ...
Sorry, what do you mean by this?

Last edited by michaelvi; 09/30/18 03:23 PM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768619
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Nahum
Now possible to take Dramamine if someone needs it. But this is at your expense ...
Sorry, what do you mean by this?

Nahim was responding to my comment that the unsteady camera in the video he posted made me feel like I needed Dramamine for motion sickness. wink

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 09/30/18 03:29 PM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768624
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Nahum

I have to explain (not for the first time):

Sorry if I missed your previous explanations.

It is in other threads.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768628
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Nahim was responding to my comment that the unsteady camera in the video he posted made me feel like I needed Dramamine for motion sickness. wink
I guess to play melodica I'll need to quit smoking.[end of serious part]. But no, I will not ask what drugs can help me with that. Instead, I am using ... guess what? Right, an Android app that VISUALLY indicates how many cigarettes were smoked today every time I look at my phone screen. Believe it or not, but this constant psychological impact already helped to reduce that number by half smile


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768661
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
I guess to play melodica I'll need to quit smoking.[end of serious part]. But no, I will not ask what drugs can help me with that. Instead, I am using ... guess what? Right, an Android app that VISUALLY indicates how many cigarettes were smoked today every time I look at my phone screen. Believe it or not, but this constant psychological impact already helped to reduce that number by half smile

I was a 2 pack a day smoker and quit cold turkey in 1994. Never looked back. (Although I started - and then soon stopped again - casual cigar smoking about 5 yrs ago when I became a member of a university club with a cigar room that US Supreme Court Justice Anthony Scalia was also a member of... haha.) I had gone through a major life trauma (2 deaths in immediate family within a year of each other) so this might have been a contributing factor to being able to resist the cancer sticks...

How does smoking relate to piano? Well isn't it obvious? Rachmaninoff was a smoker. I'm sure it made him great. And now that I'm only an ex-smoker, I will never play piano like Rachmaninoff. wink


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768688
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

I guess to play melodica I'll need to quit smoking.[end of serious part].

Just the opposite - melodica helps to strengthen the breath (without corrugated tube ).


youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv7-Ursp_zY&index=75&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw

Last edited by Nahum; 10/01/18 01:21 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768706
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Cannot catch rhythm. Definitely too early for me... frown


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768708
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Originally Posted by Nahum

For stuff like this I really need to sub-divide down to the [1 e & a] level to feel/catch the rhythm. If I use a straight [1 2 3 4] or [1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &] - the syncopated and swing notes sound like they are tumbling around inside a blender. With [1 e & a] I can more clearly hear/feel/place the syncopated and swing notes.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768712
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

Cannot catch rhythm. Definitely too early for me... frown
If you want to work out a rhythm, also with melodica , take Roni Holan’s book “Rhythm for All” and start working with the metronome on exercises 1,2,3,4,.Repeat each bar 8 times before tying into one long chain. Repeat each bar 8 times before tying into one long chain. On melodica you pronounce :
whole notes - ta-a-a-a
halfs - ta-a
fourths - ta ta ta ta
eighths - taka tuku
The eighth pause, a quarter - "n", "m"
half pause - "n-n" ,"m-m"
etc.

Originally Posted by Groove On
For several days there is a problem with the clips. It is preferable to place a link.

Last edited by Nahum; 10/01/18 05:40 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768720
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Originally Posted by Nahum
whole notes - ta-a-a-a
halfs - ta-a
fourths - ta ta ta ta
eighths - taka tuku
The eighth pause, a quarter - "n", "m"
half pause - "n-n" ,"m-m"
etc.

Interesting transcription of methodology that I have heard several times. I'll try it. Thank you!


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768735
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
[
Interesting transcription of methodology that I have heard several times. I'll try it. Thank you!
You're welcome!

Here's more for discussion: I already wrote in the past that the study of rhythm begins with an inner pronunciation , and rhythmic errors in performance are preceded necessarily by errors in the internal pronunciation; so we need to voice it. For this purpose, the best tools are harp and melodica ; but for us it is preferable to breathe rhythmically and press keys statically on melodica .
Unlike pronunciation errors, distortion of the rhythm can occur from technique problems.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: outo] #2768798
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Originally Posted by outo
Many people do not seem to hear problems with pulse consistency themselves while they play, that is why they record and listen back. I think to be able to hear oneself go off pulse is either an learned skill or a natural ability.


I think it may be a function of how well you know the music you're playing. When you're first learning something, it takes all your brain power just to get the right fingers to the right keys. There's nothing left to pay attention to the tempo. When you know something quite well, it's a lot easier, and you have brain capacity left over to critique what you're doing.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768801
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One issue with a visual metronome is that it takes the brain longer to process vision than sound. There's a demonstration of this somewhere in the PBS series on the brain:

https://www.pbs.org/the-brain-with-david-eagleman/home/

They shot slow motion of a foot race started once with a light and once with sound. Everybody started later on the visual cue.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: JohnSprung] #2768802
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung

One issue with a visual metronome is that it takes the brain longer to process vision than sound. There's a demonstration of this somewhere in the PBS series on the brain:

https://www.pbs.org/the-brain-with-david-eagleman/home/

They shot slow motion of a foot race started once with a light and once with sound. Everybody started later on the visual cue.

Studies have show the audio reaction time is 0.15 seconds vs 0.25 seconds for vision. But I think that is why michaelvi is saying that a flash will not work because of the 0.25 second visual reaction time. He is interested in a visual metronome where there is a warning, such as in the case of a conductor. In this case, a laser metronome would work for him.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768803
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The average reaction in young people:

To the light - 190 ms
To the sound- 160ms

Last edited by Nahum; 10/01/18 12:19 PM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768826
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
I think it may be a function of how well you know the music you're playing. When you're first learning something, it takes all your brain power just to get the right fingers to the right keys. There's nothing left to pay attention to the tempo. When you know something quite well, it's a lot easier, and you have brain capacity left over to critique what you're doing.

In my case I am talking about pieces that I know quite well (ok, not including their rhythmic pattern, which, as it becomes obvious, I just don't recognize (or hear, or feel - whatever you call it) )

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think that is why michaelvi is saying that a flash will not work because of the 0.25 second visual reaction time. He is interested in a visual metronome where there is a warning, such as in the case of a conductor.

Yes, that's what I meant here:
Originally Posted by michaelvi
A conductor's RH doesn't just briefly appear and disappear like those audible metronome ticks or light flashes (for me - in unpredictable points of time). It is visible all the time and it's movement help you to get prepared and probably its speed of movement helps you to adjust speed of something there in your body that generates your pulses (but I might be wrong in my theoretical suspicions)

Another approach could be similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB-8vVyUup0 What does he have on his screen?



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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768845
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

Another approach could be similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB-8vVyUup0 What does he have on his screen?


That is a recording application, looks like audacity to me. I assume you are referring to the to the red bars at the top of the screen, the bars are not guides of any sort, I suppose they could be if you played it back and silenced the sound and see if it helps when you play along seeing that aid, but then you need something recorded already that is in time. The red bars are simply displaying a measure of the volume output levels of what you play while you record, which is what this chap is doing in the video. It is not guiding him in any way to keep rhythm/timing.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2768855
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
The red bars are simply displaying a measure of the volume output levels of what you play while you record, which is what this chap is doing in the video.
Are they red? (To complete my self-portrait given in this thread, I am also color-blind smile )
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
It is not guiding him in any way to keep rhythm/timing.

I am sure Slava Makovsky doesn't need any guiding while he is playing. That was just an inspiration for my thoughts about my potential app discussed earlier (still hmm...ing if it is going to be worth effort...): a horizontal bar with measures and ticks (like here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu8p_6tJYcQ) and vertical bar moving from left to right (or vertical bar staying at the center and horizontal moving left)

Btw just found another interesting thread here on PW - http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2097847/re-drum-machine-for-piano-timing.html but unlike OP of that thread I am thinking about software based solution. Drum machine, advanced metronome or whatever that for me will be easier to connect with. With maximum four colors - black, white, blue and green/red/yellow (those three I hardly distinguish)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2769583
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When I first used the metronome, I coudent get to grips with it. So I decided to encorperate it for a couple of minutes a day and then I gradually built up to being comfortable with it- still have problems with 6/8 time though but improve a lot with 4/4 and counting the quavers

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Wayne2467] #2769990
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Originally Posted by Wayne2467
When I first used the metronome, I coudent get to grips with it. So I decided to encorperate it for a couple of minutes a day and then I gradually built up to being comfortable with it- still have problems with 6/8 time though but improve a lot with 4/4 and counting the quavers

In other words, you suggestion is to spend some time working with metronome only to get used to it?
(probably I just underestimate worthiness of spending my very practicing piano time on learning metronome while I am in rush to learn piano)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2769994
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

In other words, you suggestion is to spend some time working with metronome only to get used to it?
(probably I just underestimate worthiness of spending my very practicing piano time on learning metronome while I am in rush to learn piano)

Yes.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2770005
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Wayne2467
When I first used the metronome, I coudent get to grips with it. So I decided to encorperate it for a couple of minutes a day and then I gradually built up to being comfortable with it- still have problems with 6/8 time though but improve a lot with 4/4 and counting the quavers

In other words, you suggestion is to spend some time working with metronome only to get used to it?
(probably I just underestimate worthiness of spending my very practicing piano time on learning metronome while I am in rush to learn piano)


You can’t really learn to play the piano without the ability to keep the rhythm, and unfortunately using the metronome is part of that learning process. I doubt there are many, if any, here that did not have trouble using the Metronome at first..... I have a love-hate relationship with it but realize I need to keep on the ‘love’ side of the spectrum

Using the metronome for a few minutes every time you play is a great suggestion.... it will reduce your urge to smash it against the wall wink

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2770031
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Trying to add in the metronome while playing the piano can be overwhelming in the beginning, so start by using the metronome while away from the piano.

Turn it on and clap to the beat, around 60 Beats Per Minute, while counting OUT LOUD 1 - 2 - 3 - 4.

And do not try to add the metronome to a piece already learned. Instead, start with a very simple piece that has only one hand playing, such as the melody to Mary had a little lamb.

Get it so you can count out loud while playing that piece to the metronome at a relatively slow beat.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2770064
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You will get used to it. If I can do it then most people can. When it happens you then have to get used to not having it on

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: rocket88] #2770070
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Originally Posted by rocket88
Trying to add in the metronome while playing the piano ...

And do not try to add the metronome to a piece already learned


That's exactly what I was trying to do, taking suggestion to learn metronome too literally... Thank you for pointing this out this clearly!

--end of serious part---

Originally Posted by Wayne2467
When it happens you then have to get used to not having it on

Ok, so don't be surprised if someday at a concert of classical music (somewhere in Carnegie Hall) you will see a pianist playing Beethoven’s sonatas and Rachmaninov’s etudes to the accompaniment of a metronome smile


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2770073
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Maybe start off playing a few scale with the metronome on😉

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2770108
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by rocket88
Trying to add in the metronome while playing the piano ...

And do not try to add the metronome to a piece already learned


That's exactly what I was trying to do, taking suggestion to learn metronome too literally... Thank you for pointing this out this clearly!



You are welcome.

Bottom line is that you want to develop your ability to hear and feel the groove, the rhythm, the tempo. So learn that away from the piano, which is much much more doable than:

1. Trying to play the piano while distracted by trying to hear the metronome.

2. Trying to hear the metronome / learn the groove while applying the metronome beat to a piece that most likely you have learned a rhythm/ tempo different than the metronome.

3. Trying to hear the metronome / learn the groove while applying the metronome beat to a piece that most likely more complicated than a very simple one note/one hand piece.

4. Worrying about not being able to do it.

5. etc, etc, etc.

Bottom line: keep it simple...focus on what you want to do in its most essential basic form, (to hear and feel the beat), and only then, when that skill has had some time to develop and mature in your brain, apply it to some very simple music (one hand, one note per beat).


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2770721
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Hi Michael I'm trying to understand with hopes of offering something to try..
I'm a little confused about you saying "Rhythmic deafness" .. if your teacher claps a rhythm can you clap it back? If yes.. then I wouldn't allow you to call yourself rhythmically deaf!

I think hearing "meter"... which sounds like what you were talking about earlier... takes a lot longer. I played piano for years and still when it was asked during theory tests I would literally count in my head and see if it was divisible by 3 or 4 cause I didn't know how else to do it. Listening to/playing waltzes gave me a better idea that meter does matter cause it determines where strong beats fall. Or even better, dance to it.

Also I wonder what your teacher means by complaining you "don't count" .. does that mean you're simply not reading the proper counts for certain notes? If so maybe you could write it in for the tricky parts.

Or does that mean you're speeding up or slowing down inappropriately (this is where a metronome would help)? Some people are more attuned to this than others and I think it's also something that takes a lot of time... any trained musician will have likely have better perception of a steady tempo than a person off the street.. but even after years of playing music, when I picked up viola in high school my teacher told me that I would speed up at what to me was an imperceptible rate and it drove her crazy. My piano teacher had never complained of anything of the sort.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: rocket88] #2777039
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First of all my apologizes that I didn't respond here for 3 weeks. I was extremely busy at work and almost didn't visit any social platforms from home, preferring to spend few minutes with piano. I also had a feeling that many people have already contributed a lot this thread and gave it more than enough attention, so I didn't expect it to be continued...

Originally Posted by rocket88
So learn that away from the piano, which is much much more doable than:

1. Trying to play the piano while distracted by trying to hear the metronome.

2. Trying to hear the metronome / learn the groove while applying the metronome beat to a piece that most likely you have learned a rhythm/ tempo different than the metronome.

3. Trying to hear the metronome / learn the groove while applying the metronome beat to a piece that most likely more complicated than a very simple one note/one hand piece.

4. Worrying about not being able to do it.

5. etc, etc, etc.

Bottom line: keep it simple...focus on what you want to do in its most essential basic form, (to hear and feel the beat), and only then, when that skill has had some time to develop and mature in your brain, apply it to some very simple music (one hand, one note per beat).


Thank you again rocket88 for invaluable suggestions. What you wrote is exactly what was happening, you phrased it very well. And I will definitely change my strategy and approach to this problem.


Originally Posted by hello my name is
if your teacher claps a rhythm can you clap it back?
Not easily, to be honest

Originally Posted by hello my name is
Also I wonder what your teacher means by complaining you "don't count" .. does that mean you're simply not reading the proper counts for certain notes? If so maybe you could write it in for the tricky parts.

Or does that mean you're speeding up or slowing down inappropriately (this is where a metronome would help)?
In most cases it means that I don't keep note duration and pauses in RH melody if there is no "supporting line". For example, if I play the same melody but with LH accompaniment then it becomes much better and easier for me: if LH's plays a steady pattern it works for me (I guess) like a metronome and helps my RH to do right things at right moments of time...


I want to thank you all again for great explanations and suggestions! I will take them all into account.

And I am traveling to Paris for next 11 days, probably won't be visiting internet during this time, so please excuse me if I will leave some other posts here without answers until I come back


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2777228
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Thank you michaelvi for your kind words.


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