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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768388
09/29/18 12:59 PM
09/29/18 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
don't let my link stop you from coding up something yourself!
It probably won't at least because that laser metronome is out of stock smile

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Consider that most cellphones have a light that can be used as a flash for photography
I think that flash will have the same problem - when it flashes it is already too late. I have two "metronome leds" in my DP (see signature) - one for strong and one for weak beat. It does have this same problem. Istead, I very much like this approach - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UphAzryVpY&feature=youtu.be&t=59 and it looks like someone already followed it in a software Round Rhythm. A conductor's RH doesn't just briefly appear and disappear like those audible metronome ticks or light flashes (for me - in unpredictable points of time). It is visible all the time and it's movement help you to get prepared and probably its speed of movement helps you to adjust speed of something there in your body that generates your pulses (but I might be wrong in my theoretical suspicions)

Another approach could be similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB-8vVyUup0 What does he have on his screen?

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Don't know how exactly to implement that, whether it should be based on a pre-established "profile" counted from a synchronization point (button press), or if it should be based on a verbal command "slow down, speed up", or something else...
IMHO those are already secondary details (in programmer's language: you can design several different controllers and add even more later once a good model and at least a basic view are in place) Sometimes I saw performances where conductors started counting rhythm (am I using right terminology?) with their RH before musicians start playing. So I don't think this app needs a special sync mechanism- just start it, let it "play" one or two measures alone and then join it with your piano smile

Originally Posted by Nahum
Physical pulsation is another matter.
Pulse metronome
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_nLhiYdfuY

Nice gadget Nahum. But I am already sitting in front of a monitor. Is there something that can be done by this gadget and cannot be done by a PC? (Sorry if I am missing your point)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768393
09/29/18 01:23 PM
09/29/18 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Don't know how exactly to implement that, whether it should be based on a pre-established "profile" counted from a synchronization point (button press), or if it should be based on a verbal command "slow down, speed up", or something else...
IMHO those are already secondary details (in programmer's language: you can design several different controllers and add even more later once a good model and at least a basic view are in place) Sometimes I saw performances where conductors started counting rhythm (am I using right terminology?) with their RH before musicians start playing. So I don't think this app needs a special sync mechanism- just start it, let it "play" one or two measures alone and then join it with your piano smile

I don't think we are on the same wavelength on what I am thinking of as a tempo adjustment feature for a metronome. For example, let's say we have a 16 measure piece of music where the last two measures have ritardando. If the metronome app implements a profile with ritardando in measures 15 and 16, but there is no synchronization, then the ritardando for the metronome might start when you are actually playing measure 14 or measure 16, if the first measure isn't synchronized. So yes, some form of synchronization is required. Perhaps the best synchronization is the musical score itself, but this is already much more advanced then I have the time (and possibly the ability) to code.

The simplest mechanism might be one where on-demand (say, via verbal command), you tell the metronome to slow down or speed up. Then no synchronization is required. You turn the metronome on. You start playing when you want. and you command it to slow down or speed up when desired (obviously in a hands-free way, so verbal is good).


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768394
09/29/18 01:28 PM
09/29/18 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
[
Nice gadget Nahum.
It's instead of a dwarf, who would poke rhythmically his finger in your hip ( or near ) laugh

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768416
09/29/18 03:08 PM
09/29/18 03:08 PM
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To OP: I am a very visual person myself, but I find that a visual metronome or representation of beats has had little effect on my ability to keep a beat, much less to feel it. It's not a clock face, but a traditional metronome already has a visual way of tracking the beat (the swinging arm). I used a digital version of that (the app Practice+ on iOS) at the beginning but I found I was just relying on the visual cue which helped a tiny bit but did not really help me keep a steady internal pulse.

(...a bit of a segue..

Before I started piano I was addicted to rhythm games. Despite having no sense of rhythm I could get high scores because the all the "notes values" were represented visually by the game. You would know when to press a note/button because the game clearly shows you when to do it. Because of that I could play the game even with the volume on mute. There was even an incident where I beat a professional drummer on a drum game (that was hilarious). But even after hundreds of hours playing those games I did not develop any internal sense of rhythm!

There is one game I know though that is pulse-sensitive: HarmoKnight on 3DS. I played it a bit last week after having dropped it years back (it got too tough) and was surprised how much on-beat I was. I beat the boss on the first try, LOL! So I have validation that in the intervening years I my sense of rhythm has indeed improved.

...end segue)

I wonder why you're not asking your teacher for help in developing your internal pulse and abiliy to keep rhythm? My teacher's help has been invaluable to me in that regard. He told me which exact areas my rhythm was off, and clapped, marched, turned on the metronome etc. while I was redoing the problem areas. He assigned easy technical exercises where the main objective was to keep a steady beat. His feedback was also a major help so I knew whether I was on the right track (as in the beginning I could not feel the beat so I could also not evaluate whether I was doing OK or not!) Also his instructions and suggestions have all been concrete (i.e. slowing down and speeding up on measures 20 and 22, clap or tap the beat and feel it before starting) and not just "you don't count".



Last edited by marimorimo; 09/29/18 03:13 PM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768429
09/29/18 04:15 PM
09/29/18 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
For example, let's say we have a 16 measure piece of music where the last two measures have ritardando. If the metronome app implements a profile with ritardando in measures 15 and 16, but there is no synchronization, then the ritardando for the metronome might start when you are actually playing measure 14 or measure 16, if the first measure isn't synchronized. So yes, some form of synchronization is required. Perhaps the best synchronization is the musical score itself, but this is already much more advanced then I have the time (and possibly the ability) to code.

The simplest mechanism might be one where on-demand (say, via verbal command), you tell the metronome to slow down or speed up. Then no synchronization is required. You turn the metronome on. You start playing when you want. and you command it to slow down or speed up when desired (obviously in a hands-free way, so verbal is good).
Ok, that explains why you need sync or some kind of hads-free command like voice (a pedal or a wheel under left foot? - I am assuming such app is not going to be used by advanced players who use piano's left pedal). What about the following solution for your example: you create a profile according to it but add one or two extra measures at the beginning, so 17 or 18 measures in profile. First one or two are played by app only, then goto my previous post smile


Originally Posted by marimorimo
.. I find that a visual metronome or representation of beats has had little effect on my ability to keep a beat, much less to feel it.
This is discouraging... I wanted to code an app that could help me and maybe others... smile


Originally Posted by marimorimo
I wonder why you're not asking your teacher for help in developing your internal pulse and abiliy to keep rhythm? My teacher's help has been invaluable to me in that regard. He told me which exact areas my rhythm was off, and clapped, marched, turned on the metronome etc. while I was redoing the problem areas. He assigned easy technical exercises where the main objective was to keep a steady beat. His feedback was also a major help so I knew whether I was on the right track (as in the beginning I could not feel the beat so I could also not evaluate whether I was doing OK or not!) Also his instructions and suggestions have all been concrete (i.e. slowing down and speeding up on measures 20 and 22, clap or tap the beat and feel it before starting) and not just "you don't count".
She tries to teach me. Also giving appropriate assignments. But I am failing with those assignments (my home work). But she cannot spend unlimited time with me. So I am trying to help her to push this stone, let's put it this way...


Last edited by michaelvi; 09/29/18 04:16 PM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768433
09/29/18 04:46 PM
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In this thread I was given many playing and singing samples from Youtube. May I also give some sample and ask a question:
Is it just a consequence of my rhythmic deafness or anyone will understand what I mean saying that:

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...


Started 2016-01-29
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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768443
09/29/18 06:14 PM
09/29/18 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Michaelvi

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music.

Agreed that this amateur pianist maintains good rhythm throughout.

Originally Posted by Michaelvi
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...

Say what? She destroys the rhythmic pattern? This pianist maintains great rhythm throughout.

The two pianists are playing different transcriptions of the same piece, one by Liszt and other by Bernstein.



Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2768458
09/29/18 08:08 PM
09/29/18 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Originally Posted by Michaelvi

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music.

Agreed that this amateur pianist maintains good rhythm throughout.

Originally Posted by Michaelvi
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...

Say what? She destroys the rhythmic pattern? This pianist maintains great rhythm throughout.

The two pianists are playing different transcriptions of the same piece, one by Liszt and other by Bernstein.



+1 I thought the professional did an outstanding job with the transcription!


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768470
09/29/18 10:07 PM
09/29/18 10:07 PM
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If you use a metronome to check professional recordings you will notice that they don't really maintain perfect metronomic beat all the way through. Yet their playing does not usually sound like the rhythm is off. This is because there are elements of rhythm that are crucial and others that can be flexed. I think it is more difficult to learn the basics of good rhythm with romantic music because it just sounds better when played with some freedom. Baroque music is much better to learn rhythmic stability imo.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768479
09/30/18 01:37 AM
09/30/18 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

This is discouraging... I wanted to code an app that could help me and maybe others... smile


[]She tries to teach me. Also giving appropriate assignments. But I am failing with those assignments (my home work). But she cannot spend unlimited time with me. So I am trying to help her to push this stone, let's put it this way...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr8-AL9XOOY&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw&index=35

Last edited by Nahum; 09/30/18 01:39 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2768500
09/30/18 05:20 AM
09/30/18 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Originally Posted by Michaelvi

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music.

Agreed that this amateur pianist maintains good rhythm throughout.

Originally Posted by Michaelvi
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...

Say what? She destroys the rhythmic pattern? This pianist maintains great rhythm throughout.

The two pianists are playing different transcriptions of the same piece, one by Liszt and other by Bernstein.


Yes those are different transcriptions, but this time I tried to focus on the rhythm. So, you answer is that my feeling is a consequence of my rhythmic deafness. Not surprising frown

Originally Posted by outo
I think it is more difficult to learn the basics of good rhythm with romantic music because it just sounds better when played with some freedom. Baroque music is much better to learn rhythmic stability imo.
Interesting point about romantic music. Agree that when listening baroque a rhythm is heard more clearly (by me)

Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768505
09/30/18 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi


Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)

Do you know what to do?

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768517
09/30/18 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by michaelvi


Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)

Do you know what to do?

Not yet (still at work), but I promise you I will report here as soon as get there smile


Started 2016-01-29
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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768561
09/30/18 11:02 AM
09/30/18 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by michaelvi


Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)

Do you know what to do?

Maybe I can guess but don't want to. Would you be so kind to explain what you meant with this video?
(That my piano education is now completed and I am ready to go to a different instrument? smile )
To be serious, I think I can reproduce those simple rhythms on my piano but melodica will be much beyond me.


Started 2016-01-29
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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768566
09/30/18 11:22 AM
09/30/18 11:22 AM
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Oh my. Where is the Dramamine? Can I get off the swing now?


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768603
09/30/18 02:15 PM
09/30/18 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

Maybe I can guess but don't want to. Would you be so kind to explain what you meant with this video?
(That my piano education is now completed and I am ready to go to a different instrument? smile )
To be serious, I think I can reproduce those simple rhythms on my piano but melodica will be much beyond me.


I have to explain (not for the first time): this student has a cerebral abnormality that prevents her from counting, and she was characterized by the performance of music almost without any sense of rhythm. Her previous teacher simply did not know how to solve the problem. This problem can not be solved, but you can go around. Therefore, I suggested that she begin to work with melodica on drumming grooves and rhythmic patterns of tunes .This video is a tiny fragment of our work.

Some of the explanations you can find in my tutorial for the melodica here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2581100/jazz-melodica-tutorial.html

Here are audio examples for this tutorial.

Swing:

https://yadi.sk/d/TE72R0Ho1CMpjQ

Samba :

https://yadi.sk/d/nsI7lEucHDeflw

Here I'm playing exercise № 1 from the book by Bob Stoloff "Scat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcFDyHKVt2s&index=36&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw

michaelvi , for some reason, it seems to me that you will not have a chance to play the piano like that. But these exercises develop strongly rhythm and articulation. Bob Stoloff uses my clips himself.

BTW , my student played on last recital with drummer Stayin Alive of Bee Gees almost without rhythmic mistakes.

Now possible to take Dramamine if someone needs it. But this is at your expense ...

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768617
09/30/18 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum

I have to explain (not for the first time):

Sorry if I missed your previous explanations.
Interesting stuff Nahum. I'll try to learn it better.
Thank you very much!!!

Originally Posted by Nahum

Now possible to take Dramamine if someone needs it. But this is at your expense ...
Sorry, what do you mean by this?

Last edited by michaelvi; 09/30/18 03:23 PM.

Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768619
09/30/18 03:29 PM
09/30/18 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Nahum
Now possible to take Dramamine if someone needs it. But this is at your expense ...
Sorry, what do you mean by this?

Nahim was responding to my comment that the unsteady camera in the video he posted made me feel like I needed Dramamine for motion sickness. wink

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 09/30/18 03:29 PM.

across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768624
09/30/18 03:41 PM
09/30/18 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Nahum

I have to explain (not for the first time):

Sorry if I missed your previous explanations.

It is in other threads.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768628
09/30/18 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Nahim was responding to my comment that the unsteady camera in the video he posted made me feel like I needed Dramamine for motion sickness. wink
I guess to play melodica I'll need to quit smoking.[end of serious part]. But no, I will not ask what drugs can help me with that. Instead, I am using ... guess what? Right, an Android app that VISUALLY indicates how many cigarettes were smoked today every time I look at my phone screen. Believe it or not, but this constant psychological impact already helped to reduce that number by half smile


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