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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2768500
09/30/18 06:20 AM
09/30/18 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Originally Posted by Michaelvi

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music.

Agreed that this amateur pianist maintains good rhythm throughout.

Originally Posted by Michaelvi
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...

Say what? She destroys the rhythmic pattern? This pianist maintains great rhythm throughout.

The two pianists are playing different transcriptions of the same piece, one by Liszt and other by Bernstein.


Yes those are different transcriptions, but this time I tried to focus on the rhythm. So, you answer is that my feeling is a consequence of my rhythmic deafness. Not surprising frown

Originally Posted by outo
I think it is more difficult to learn the basics of good rhythm with romantic music because it just sounds better when played with some freedom. Baroque music is much better to learn rhythmic stability imo.
Interesting point about romantic music. Agree that when listening baroque a rhythm is heard more clearly (by me)

Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768505
09/30/18 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi


Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)

Do you know what to do?

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768517
09/30/18 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by michaelvi


Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)

Do you know what to do?

Not yet (still at work), but I promise you I will report here as soon as get there smile


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768561
09/30/18 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by michaelvi


Thank you Nahum. I'll try this later today or tomorrow (now at work)

Do you know what to do?

Maybe I can guess but don't want to. Would you be so kind to explain what you meant with this video?
(That my piano education is now completed and I am ready to go to a different instrument? smile )
To be serious, I think I can reproduce those simple rhythms on my piano but melodica will be much beyond me.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768566
09/30/18 12:22 PM
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Oh my. Where is the Dramamine? Can I get off the swing now?


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768603
09/30/18 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

Maybe I can guess but don't want to. Would you be so kind to explain what you meant with this video?
(That my piano education is now completed and I am ready to go to a different instrument? smile )
To be serious, I think I can reproduce those simple rhythms on my piano but melodica will be much beyond me.


I have to explain (not for the first time): this student has a cerebral abnormality that prevents her from counting, and she was characterized by the performance of music almost without any sense of rhythm. Her previous teacher simply did not know how to solve the problem. This problem can not be solved, but you can go around. Therefore, I suggested that she begin to work with melodica on drumming grooves and rhythmic patterns of tunes .This video is a tiny fragment of our work.

Some of the explanations you can find in my tutorial for the melodica here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2581100/jazz-melodica-tutorial.html

Here are audio examples for this tutorial.

Swing:

https://yadi.sk/d/TE72R0Ho1CMpjQ

Samba :

https://yadi.sk/d/nsI7lEucHDeflw

Here I'm playing exercise № 1 from the book by Bob Stoloff "Scat".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcFDyHKVt2s&index=36&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw

michaelvi , for some reason, it seems to me that you will not have a chance to play the piano like that. But these exercises develop strongly rhythm and articulation. Bob Stoloff uses my clips himself.

BTW , my student played on last recital with drummer Stayin Alive of Bee Gees almost without rhythmic mistakes.

Now possible to take Dramamine if someone needs it. But this is at your expense ...

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768617
09/30/18 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum

I have to explain (not for the first time):

Sorry if I missed your previous explanations.
Interesting stuff Nahum. I'll try to learn it better.
Thank you very much!!!

Originally Posted by Nahum

Now possible to take Dramamine if someone needs it. But this is at your expense ...
Sorry, what do you mean by this?

Last edited by michaelvi; 09/30/18 04:23 PM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768619
09/30/18 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Nahum
Now possible to take Dramamine if someone needs it. But this is at your expense ...
Sorry, what do you mean by this?

Nahim was responding to my comment that the unsteady camera in the video he posted made me feel like I needed Dramamine for motion sickness. wink

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 09/30/18 04:29 PM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768624
09/30/18 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Nahum

I have to explain (not for the first time):

Sorry if I missed your previous explanations.

It is in other threads.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768628
09/30/18 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Nahim was responding to my comment that the unsteady camera in the video he posted made me feel like I needed Dramamine for motion sickness. wink
I guess to play melodica I'll need to quit smoking.[end of serious part]. But no, I will not ask what drugs can help me with that. Instead, I am using ... guess what? Right, an Android app that VISUALLY indicates how many cigarettes were smoked today every time I look at my phone screen. Believe it or not, but this constant psychological impact already helped to reduce that number by half smile


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768661
09/30/18 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
I guess to play melodica I'll need to quit smoking.[end of serious part]. But no, I will not ask what drugs can help me with that. Instead, I am using ... guess what? Right, an Android app that VISUALLY indicates how many cigarettes were smoked today every time I look at my phone screen. Believe it or not, but this constant psychological impact already helped to reduce that number by half smile

I was a 2 pack a day smoker and quit cold turkey in 1994. Never looked back. (Although I started - and then soon stopped again - casual cigar smoking about 5 yrs ago when I became a member of a university club with a cigar room that US Supreme Court Justice Anthony Scalia was also a member of... haha.) I had gone through a major life trauma (2 deaths in immediate family within a year of each other) so this might have been a contributing factor to being able to resist the cancer sticks...

How does smoking relate to piano? Well isn't it obvious? Rachmaninoff was a smoker. I'm sure it made him great. And now that I'm only an ex-smoker, I will never play piano like Rachmaninoff. wink


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768688
10/01/18 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

I guess to play melodica I'll need to quit smoking.[end of serious part].

Just the opposite - melodica helps to strengthen the breath (without corrugated tube ).


youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv7-Ursp_zY&index=75&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw

Last edited by Nahum; 10/01/18 02:21 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768706
10/01/18 05:30 AM
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Cannot catch rhythm. Definitely too early for me... frown


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768708
10/01/18 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum

For stuff like this I really need to sub-divide down to the [1 e & a] level to feel/catch the rhythm. If I use a straight [1 2 3 4] or [1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &] - the syncopated and swing notes sound like they are tumbling around inside a blender. With [1 e & a] I can more clearly hear/feel/place the syncopated and swing notes.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768712
10/01/18 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

Cannot catch rhythm. Definitely too early for me... frown
If you want to work out a rhythm, also with melodica , take Roni Holan’s book “Rhythm for All” and start working with the metronome on exercises 1,2,3,4,.Repeat each bar 8 times before tying into one long chain. Repeat each bar 8 times before tying into one long chain. On melodica you pronounce :
whole notes - ta-a-a-a
halfs - ta-a
fourths - ta ta ta ta
eighths - taka tuku
The eighth pause, a quarter - "n", "m"
half pause - "n-n" ,"m-m"
etc.

Originally Posted by Groove On
For several days there is a problem with the clips. It is preferable to place a link.

Last edited by Nahum; 10/01/18 06:40 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768720
10/01/18 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
whole notes - ta-a-a-a
halfs - ta-a
fourths - ta ta ta ta
eighths - taka tuku
The eighth pause, a quarter - "n", "m"
half pause - "n-n" ,"m-m"
etc.

Interesting transcription of methodology that I have heard several times. I'll try it. Thank you!


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768735
10/01/18 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
[
Interesting transcription of methodology that I have heard several times. I'll try it. Thank you!
You're welcome!

Here's more for discussion: I already wrote in the past that the study of rhythm begins with an inner pronunciation , and rhythmic errors in performance are preceded necessarily by errors in the internal pronunciation; so we need to voice it. For this purpose, the best tools are harp and melodica ; but for us it is preferable to breathe rhythmically and press keys statically on melodica .
Unlike pronunciation errors, distortion of the rhythm can occur from technique problems.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: outo] #2768798
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Originally Posted by outo
Many people do not seem to hear problems with pulse consistency themselves while they play, that is why they record and listen back. I think to be able to hear oneself go off pulse is either an learned skill or a natural ability.


I think it may be a function of how well you know the music you're playing. When you're first learning something, it takes all your brain power just to get the right fingers to the right keys. There's nothing left to pay attention to the tempo. When you know something quite well, it's a lot easier, and you have brain capacity left over to critique what you're doing.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768801
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One issue with a visual metronome is that it takes the brain longer to process vision than sound. There's a demonstration of this somewhere in the PBS series on the brain:

https://www.pbs.org/the-brain-with-david-eagleman/home/

They shot slow motion of a foot race started once with a light and once with sound. Everybody started later on the visual cue.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: JohnSprung] #2768802
10/01/18 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung

One issue with a visual metronome is that it takes the brain longer to process vision than sound. There's a demonstration of this somewhere in the PBS series on the brain:

https://www.pbs.org/the-brain-with-david-eagleman/home/

They shot slow motion of a foot race started once with a light and once with sound. Everybody started later on the visual cue.

Studies have show the audio reaction time is 0.15 seconds vs 0.25 seconds for vision. But I think that is why michaelvi is saying that a flash will not work because of the 0.25 second visual reaction time. He is interested in a visual metronome where there is a warning, such as in the case of a conductor. In this case, a laser metronome would work for him.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768803
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The average reaction in young people:

To the light - 190 ms
To the sound- 160ms

Last edited by Nahum; 10/01/18 01:19 PM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768826
10/01/18 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
I think it may be a function of how well you know the music you're playing. When you're first learning something, it takes all your brain power just to get the right fingers to the right keys. There's nothing left to pay attention to the tempo. When you know something quite well, it's a lot easier, and you have brain capacity left over to critique what you're doing.

In my case I am talking about pieces that I know quite well (ok, not including their rhythmic pattern, which, as it becomes obvious, I just don't recognize (or hear, or feel - whatever you call it) )

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think that is why michaelvi is saying that a flash will not work because of the 0.25 second visual reaction time. He is interested in a visual metronome where there is a warning, such as in the case of a conductor.

Yes, that's what I meant here:
Originally Posted by michaelvi
A conductor's RH doesn't just briefly appear and disappear like those audible metronome ticks or light flashes (for me - in unpredictable points of time). It is visible all the time and it's movement help you to get prepared and probably its speed of movement helps you to adjust speed of something there in your body that generates your pulses (but I might be wrong in my theoretical suspicions)

Another approach could be similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB-8vVyUup0 What does he have on his screen?



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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768845
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

Another approach could be similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB-8vVyUup0 What does he have on his screen?


That is a recording application, looks like audacity to me. I assume you are referring to the to the red bars at the top of the screen, the bars are not guides of any sort, I suppose they could be if you played it back and silenced the sound and see if it helps when you play along seeing that aid, but then you need something recorded already that is in time. The red bars are simply displaying a measure of the volume output levels of what you play while you record, which is what this chap is doing in the video. It is not guiding him in any way to keep rhythm/timing.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2768855
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
The red bars are simply displaying a measure of the volume output levels of what you play while you record, which is what this chap is doing in the video.
Are they red? (To complete my self-portrait given in this thread, I am also color-blind smile )
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
It is not guiding him in any way to keep rhythm/timing.

I am sure Slava Makovsky doesn't need any guiding while he is playing. That was just an inspiration for my thoughts about my potential app discussed earlier (still hmm...ing if it is going to be worth effort...): a horizontal bar with measures and ticks (like here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu8p_6tJYcQ) and vertical bar moving from left to right (or vertical bar staying at the center and horizontal moving left)

Btw just found another interesting thread here on PW - http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2097847/re-drum-machine-for-piano-timing.html but unlike OP of that thread I am thinking about software based solution. Drum machine, advanced metronome or whatever that for me will be easier to connect with. With maximum four colors - black, white, blue and green/red/yellow (those three I hardly distinguish)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2769583
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When I first used the metronome, I coudent get to grips with it. So I decided to encorperate it for a couple of minutes a day and then I gradually built up to being comfortable with it- still have problems with 6/8 time though but improve a lot with 4/4 and counting the quavers

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Wayne2467] #2769990
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Originally Posted by Wayne2467
When I first used the metronome, I coudent get to grips with it. So I decided to encorperate it for a couple of minutes a day and then I gradually built up to being comfortable with it- still have problems with 6/8 time though but improve a lot with 4/4 and counting the quavers

In other words, you suggestion is to spend some time working with metronome only to get used to it?
(probably I just underestimate worthiness of spending my very practicing piano time on learning metronome while I am in rush to learn piano)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2769994
10/06/18 08:44 AM
10/06/18 08:44 AM
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Israel
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Nahum Offline
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

In other words, you suggestion is to spend some time working with metronome only to get used to it?
(probably I just underestimate worthiness of spending my very practicing piano time on learning metronome while I am in rush to learn piano)

Yes.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2770005
10/06/18 09:22 AM
10/06/18 09:22 AM
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Posts: 3,606
Florida
dogperson Offline
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Wayne2467
When I first used the metronome, I coudent get to grips with it. So I decided to encorperate it for a couple of minutes a day and then I gradually built up to being comfortable with it- still have problems with 6/8 time though but improve a lot with 4/4 and counting the quavers

In other words, you suggestion is to spend some time working with metronome only to get used to it?
(probably I just underestimate worthiness of spending my very practicing piano time on learning metronome while I am in rush to learn piano)


You can’t really learn to play the piano without the ability to keep the rhythm, and unfortunately using the metronome is part of that learning process. I doubt there are many, if any, here that did not have trouble using the Metronome at first..... I have a love-hate relationship with it but realize I need to keep on the ‘love’ side of the spectrum

Using the metronome for a few minutes every time you play is a great suggestion.... it will reduce your urge to smash it against the wall wink

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2770031
10/06/18 11:34 AM
10/06/18 11:34 AM
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rocket88 Offline
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Trying to add in the metronome while playing the piano can be overwhelming in the beginning, so start by using the metronome while away from the piano.

Turn it on and clap to the beat, around 60 Beats Per Minute, while counting OUT LOUD 1 - 2 - 3 - 4.

And do not try to add the metronome to a piece already learned. Instead, start with a very simple piece that has only one hand playing, such as the melody to Mary had a little lamb.

Get it so you can count out loud while playing that piece to the metronome at a relatively slow beat.


Piano teacher.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2770064
10/06/18 02:05 PM
10/06/18 02:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 70
Worcester. Uk
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You will get used to it. If I can do it then most people can. When it happens you then have to get used to not having it on

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