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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: outo] #2768300
09/29/18 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by outo
the ability to maintain pulse should be somewhat internal and can be improved by physical exercises mentioned above. But the ability to understand how to play and count different meters is more of a theoretical skill and can be mathematically solved. I am not sure if you have trouble with only the former?
I definitely have trouble with maintaining internal pulse. About theoretical understanding of this stuff - you know, I cannot be certain in anything I will say here, but I think I don't have any problems with rhythms in theory. Or maybe I do and just don't realize it.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768313
09/29/18 06:12 AM
09/29/18 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
[


We have no idea how they trained. [/quote] You can ask, for example, the participants of this choir:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c97qnpWA5qE

Originally Posted by Moo :)

after 14 or so years of lessons I really have never heard of 'rhythm hearing' is a required or necessary skill to learn for piano development.


"Rhythmic ear " refers to the field of perception and reproduction of rhythm. It hardly develops the piano, but development of it develops also the rhythmic performance on the piano - certainly.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768316
09/29/18 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by outo
the ability to maintain pulse should be somewhat internal and can be improved by physical exercises mentioned above. But the ability to understand how to play and count different meters is more of a theoretical skill and can be mathematically solved. I am not sure if you have trouble with only the former?
I definitely have trouble with maintaining internal pulse. About theoretical understanding of this stuff - you know, I cannot be certain in anything I will say here, but I think I don't have any problems with rhythms in theory. Or maybe I do and just don't realize it.


If you can correctly interpret the meter, know where the strong and weak beats are and can correctly count all the notes in a measure, you are fine. And do this to any new score without hearing the music first of course. I know people who determine the rhythm in their playing completely by ear from listening to a recording. They cannot necessarily count at all and cannot learn a piece with a more complicated rhythm straight from the score.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768317
09/29/18 06:32 AM
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One of the problems of the external metronome : he does not provide automatically a quick entry into the rhythm, if his model does not immediately appear in the mind; and also allows you to continue to play with him quite non-rhythmically . My new pupil - bass player has both of these problems.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: bennevis] #2768319
09/29/18 06:39 AM
09/29/18 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Here's Lenny teaching a famous Spanish tenor how to sing a simple song, which is of course innate in his bones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z85iqfprcRI

This is Leonard Bernstein working with Carreras on his (Bernstein's) interpretation of a song which is not really that simple, in a rehearsal. he is not teaching a top singer but working with him, and that singer has all the training he needs to be able to work with the maestro - a thing which most of us hardly have.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768320
09/29/18 06:46 AM
09/29/18 06:46 AM
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Quote
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
[


We have no idea how they trained.
You can ask, for example, the participants of this choir:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c97qnpWA5qE



You have quoted just about nothing of what I wrote, nor responded to any of the ideas. Now you have reiterated the same thing that I was responding to before, only with a different choir. This could go in circles, where if I respond with the same ideas, you will pull out another choir, and another, and another, and again say to ask the members of the choir ... which is unlikely that we can do.

So again:

1. This is a complete performance after rehearsal. A performance is not like a rehearsal.
2. We don't know how they rehearsed.
3. We don't know how each choir member practised between rehearsals.
4. We don't know what kind of (years of) prior training each choir member had before joining that choir, practising between rehearsals using the training they received, which culminated in that performance.

The biggest mistake that happens is hearing a performance, and trying to produce the finished product ourselves instead of going through the steps. For a learner those steps don't just involve learning to play the piece. It also involves getting the underlying skills over time.

Metronome use may or may not be part of it, but again ... it is HOW and WHEN you use that tool.

Sometime basic knowledge of note values can get in the way, and remain a hidden impediment. This was my case. There were whole, half, quarter, eighth and really fast notes. The dotted quarter + eighth was a vague "hop and skip". When I got that sorted out and gained some understanding, then I could work out rhythms both intellectually and instinctively, and meld the two. At times the metronome played a part; but not by playing while having it tick in the background.

Last edited by keystring; 09/29/18 06:46 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768321
09/29/18 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
One of the problems of the external metronome : he does not provide automatically a quick entry into the rhythm, if his model does not immediately appear in the mind; and also allows you to continue to play with him quite non-rhythmically . My new pupil - bass player has both of these problems.


If you use the metronome that way, like a drummer. You can use the metronome to understand things about note values and tempi. You can turn on the metronome, check what the tempo is, turn it off again, play for a while, turn it on and see if you have accidentally sped up. It depends on how you use it, and when you use it.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768333
09/29/18 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
[

You have quoted just about nothing of what I wrote, nor responded to any of the ideas. Now you have reiterated the same thing that I was responding to before, only with a different choir. This could go in circles, where if I respond with the same ideas, you will pull out another choir, and another, and another, and again say to ask the members of the choir ... which is unlikely that we can do.

So again:

1. This is a complete performance after rehearsal. A performance is not like a rehearsal.
2. We don't know how they rehearsed.
3. We don't know how each choir member practised between rehearsals.
4. We don't know what kind of (years of) prior training each choir member had before joining that choir, practising between rehearsals using the training they received, which culminated in that performance. .


I cannot conduct a dialogue like this: you write quickly thousands of letters, 20-30 times faster than my speed. So I focused on one idea:" Who trained them with the metronome? " To answer this question, you need to talk either with a member of such a choir, or with someone who has played with them.For your information, I belong to the second category: we have communities of " Black Hebrew" (mainly from Chicago and LA), as well as people from Ethiopia, with whom I had experience of performances, records, and there were some who I was learning to play the piano. Of course, each community has its own choirs and its own orchestras - very cool!
Repeatedly I asked - from the pedagogical interest, whether ever worked with a metronome; and always had the same answer: "NEVER!"

Last edited by Nahum; 09/29/18 07:44 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768336
09/29/18 08:01 AM
09/29/18 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by rocket88
Originally Posted by rocket88
Find a (good) drum teacher who actually works as a drummer and explain what you want.

Solving problems like you (the OP) describes is what they do.


This was my advice (overlooked frown )
Not at all. Sorry that I somehow left it without response but I stopped at it first time. I even spent some time searching for such teacher in local inet segment. But my problem is that I can only take lessons during weekends... I was lucky enough that my wife's sister happens to be piano teacher and she agreed to work with me on Saturdays smile


Thanks for the clarification.


Piano teacher.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: bennevis] #2768350
09/29/18 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
(BTW, that's also exactly what conductors do with their RH grin).
BTW this is an interesting idea - to have a conductor smile Let's imagine that a conductor stands in front of me when I play piano but works only with his/her right hand. Do you think it will help me to keep rhythm (pulse, etc.)?


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768352
09/29/18 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by bennevis
(BTW, that's also exactly what conductors do with their RH grin).
BTW this is an interesting idea - to have a conductor smile Let's imagine that a conductor stands in front of me when I play piano but works only with his/her right hand. Do you think it will help me to keep rhythm (pulse, etc.)?


I would suggest that you learn to use the metronome as your conductor, as using a real person for this role is only a short-term solution which will not give you the skills you need in the long-term. A conductor is working with orchestra members that all have an independent sense of good rhythm, he is just coordinating that and directing accelarandos, ritards and . rubato. Count out loud and use the metronome. There are no easy fixes but dedicated work ...., just like every problem in playing

Last edited by dogperson; 09/29/18 09:28 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768355
09/29/18 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
[quote=bennevis](BTW, that's also exactly what conductors do with their RH


--

10:25

Last edited by Nahum; 09/29/18 09:35 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768356
09/29/18 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
I cannot conduct a dialogue like this: you write quickly thousands of letters, 20-30 times faster than my speed.

You don't need to type or write my speed. Take your time. Don't answer minutes after. Address one point at a time. You can do it. smile

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: keystring] #2768357
09/29/18 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring

You don't need to type or write my speed. Take your time. Don't answer minutes after. Address one point at a time. You can do it. smile
Unfortunately, you do not understand my contradictions between the speed of thinking, the speed of writing and the weakened short-term memory.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: dogperson] #2768363
09/29/18 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by bennevis
(BTW, that's also exactly what conductors do with their RH grin).
BTW this is an interesting idea - to have a conductor smile Let's imagine that a conductor stands in front of me when I play piano but works only with his/her right hand. Do you think it will help me to keep rhythm (pulse, etc.)?


I would suggest that you learn to use the metronome as your conductor, as using a real person for this role is only a short-term solution which will not give you the skills you need in the long-term.
I understand that. My question was: let's IMAGINE I have A conductor which can work with me every time I practice piano for long enough time, yes performing that single role only - RH. It was mentioned here several times that metronome is not that easy to work with, when I hear metronome beat it is too late, etc. As I wrote in my first post here I can easily SEE how my playing follows rhythm (or rather doesn't) - in DAW software. I am using PC anyway (for DAW, scores, some memos on the desktop). So if I have something visually guiding (conducting) me on the same screen... For the time I practicing of course. Should this give some results over a time...


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768366
09/29/18 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
[So if I have something visually guiding (conducting) me on the same screen...

visual metronome


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768370
09/29/18 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by michaelvi
[So if I have something visually guiding (conducting) me on the same screen...

visual metronome

Thank you!!! I was just about launching my development environment (SW) and starting a new small project, that I was going to (code-)name "Visual Metronome" smile smile smile


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768371
09/29/18 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by michaelvi
[So if I have something visually guiding (conducting) me on the same screen...

visual metronome

Thank you!!! I was just about launching my development environment (SW) and starting a new small project, that I was going to (code-)name "Visual Metronome" smile smile smile

Well, don't let my link stop you from coding up something yourself! A simple visual metronome might be a nice simple/self-contained iOS or Android project. Consider that most cellphones have a light that can be used as a flash for photography. That might work in nicely w/ respect to a visual metronome, especially if you leave your cell connected to a charger so the battery doesn't drain.

BTW, something I've been thinking about coding up myself is an iOS/Android metronome app which allows the tempo to change mid-piece. Don't know how exactly to implement that, whether it should be based on a pre-established "profile" counted from a synchronization point (button press), or if it should be based on a verbal command "slow down, speed up", or something else...


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768375
09/29/18 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Before you lay out money for a laser metronome, you should check whether it is suitable at all for you . For example, the metronome of visual type does not suit me absolutely, creating for me the effect of rhythmic delay and smearing. Physical pulsation is another matter.
Pulse metronome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_nLhiYdfuY

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768384
09/29/18 12:29 PM
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I have been using the Boss Dr. Beat metronome that will count out loud for you, find it very helpful when learning.
https://www.boss.info/us/products/db-90/


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768388
09/29/18 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
don't let my link stop you from coding up something yourself!
It probably won't at least because that laser metronome is out of stock smile

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Consider that most cellphones have a light that can be used as a flash for photography
I think that flash will have the same problem - when it flashes it is already too late. I have two "metronome leds" in my DP (see signature) - one for strong and one for weak beat. It does have this same problem. Istead, I very much like this approach - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UphAzryVpY&feature=youtu.be&t=59 and it looks like someone already followed it in a software Round Rhythm. A conductor's RH doesn't just briefly appear and disappear like those audible metronome ticks or light flashes (for me - in unpredictable points of time). It is visible all the time and it's movement help you to get prepared and probably its speed of movement helps you to adjust speed of something there in your body that generates your pulses (but I might be wrong in my theoretical suspicions)

Another approach could be similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB-8vVyUup0 What does he have on his screen?

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Don't know how exactly to implement that, whether it should be based on a pre-established "profile" counted from a synchronization point (button press), or if it should be based on a verbal command "slow down, speed up", or something else...
IMHO those are already secondary details (in programmer's language: you can design several different controllers and add even more later once a good model and at least a basic view are in place) Sometimes I saw performances where conductors started counting rhythm (am I using right terminology?) with their RH before musicians start playing. So I don't think this app needs a special sync mechanism- just start it, let it "play" one or two measures alone and then join it with your piano smile

Originally Posted by Nahum
Physical pulsation is another matter.
Pulse metronome
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_nLhiYdfuY

Nice gadget Nahum. But I am already sitting in front of a monitor. Is there something that can be done by this gadget and cannot be done by a PC? (Sorry if I am missing your point)


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768393
09/29/18 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Don't know how exactly to implement that, whether it should be based on a pre-established "profile" counted from a synchronization point (button press), or if it should be based on a verbal command "slow down, speed up", or something else...
IMHO those are already secondary details (in programmer's language: you can design several different controllers and add even more later once a good model and at least a basic view are in place) Sometimes I saw performances where conductors started counting rhythm (am I using right terminology?) with their RH before musicians start playing. So I don't think this app needs a special sync mechanism- just start it, let it "play" one or two measures alone and then join it with your piano smile

I don't think we are on the same wavelength on what I am thinking of as a tempo adjustment feature for a metronome. For example, let's say we have a 16 measure piece of music where the last two measures have ritardando. If the metronome app implements a profile with ritardando in measures 15 and 16, but there is no synchronization, then the ritardando for the metronome might start when you are actually playing measure 14 or measure 16, if the first measure isn't synchronized. So yes, some form of synchronization is required. Perhaps the best synchronization is the musical score itself, but this is already much more advanced then I have the time (and possibly the ability) to code.

The simplest mechanism might be one where on-demand (say, via verbal command), you tell the metronome to slow down or speed up. Then no synchronization is required. You turn the metronome on. You start playing when you want. and you command it to slow down or speed up when desired (obviously in a hands-free way, so verbal is good).


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768394
09/29/18 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
[
Nice gadget Nahum.
It's instead of a dwarf, who would poke rhythmically his finger in your hip ( or near ) laugh

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768416
09/29/18 03:08 PM
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To OP: I am a very visual person myself, but I find that a visual metronome or representation of beats has had little effect on my ability to keep a beat, much less to feel it. It's not a clock face, but a traditional metronome already has a visual way of tracking the beat (the swinging arm). I used a digital version of that (the app Practice+ on iOS) at the beginning but I found I was just relying on the visual cue which helped a tiny bit but did not really help me keep a steady internal pulse.

(...a bit of a segue..

Before I started piano I was addicted to rhythm games. Despite having no sense of rhythm I could get high scores because the all the "notes values" were represented visually by the game. You would know when to press a note/button because the game clearly shows you when to do it. Because of that I could play the game even with the volume on mute. There was even an incident where I beat a professional drummer on a drum game (that was hilarious). But even after hundreds of hours playing those games I did not develop any internal sense of rhythm!

There is one game I know though that is pulse-sensitive: HarmoKnight on 3DS. I played it a bit last week after having dropped it years back (it got too tough) and was surprised how much on-beat I was. I beat the boss on the first try, LOL! So I have validation that in the intervening years I my sense of rhythm has indeed improved.

...end segue)

I wonder why you're not asking your teacher for help in developing your internal pulse and abiliy to keep rhythm? My teacher's help has been invaluable to me in that regard. He told me which exact areas my rhythm was off, and clapped, marched, turned on the metronome etc. while I was redoing the problem areas. He assigned easy technical exercises where the main objective was to keep a steady beat. His feedback was also a major help so I knew whether I was on the right track (as in the beginning I could not feel the beat so I could also not evaluate whether I was doing OK or not!) Also his instructions and suggestions have all been concrete (i.e. slowing down and speeding up on measures 20 and 22, clap or tap the beat and feel it before starting) and not just "you don't count".



Last edited by marimorimo; 09/29/18 03:13 PM.

Working on: Schumann Album for the Young, Clementi Op 36 No. 1 (all movements), Various Bach, Czerny 599
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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2768429
09/29/18 04:15 PM
09/29/18 04:15 PM
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Israel, Haifa
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michaelvi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
For example, let's say we have a 16 measure piece of music where the last two measures have ritardando. If the metronome app implements a profile with ritardando in measures 15 and 16, but there is no synchronization, then the ritardando for the metronome might start when you are actually playing measure 14 or measure 16, if the first measure isn't synchronized. So yes, some form of synchronization is required. Perhaps the best synchronization is the musical score itself, but this is already much more advanced then I have the time (and possibly the ability) to code.

The simplest mechanism might be one where on-demand (say, via verbal command), you tell the metronome to slow down or speed up. Then no synchronization is required. You turn the metronome on. You start playing when you want. and you command it to slow down or speed up when desired (obviously in a hands-free way, so verbal is good).
Ok, that explains why you need sync or some kind of hads-free command like voice (a pedal or a wheel under left foot? - I am assuming such app is not going to be used by advanced players who use piano's left pedal). What about the following solution for your example: you create a profile according to it but add one or two extra measures at the beginning, so 17 or 18 measures in profile. First one or two are played by app only, then goto my previous post smile


Originally Posted by marimorimo
.. I find that a visual metronome or representation of beats has had little effect on my ability to keep a beat, much less to feel it.
This is discouraging... I wanted to code an app that could help me and maybe others... smile


Originally Posted by marimorimo
I wonder why you're not asking your teacher for help in developing your internal pulse and abiliy to keep rhythm? My teacher's help has been invaluable to me in that regard. He told me which exact areas my rhythm was off, and clapped, marched, turned on the metronome etc. while I was redoing the problem areas. He assigned easy technical exercises where the main objective was to keep a steady beat. His feedback was also a major help so I knew whether I was on the right track (as in the beginning I could not feel the beat so I could also not evaluate whether I was doing OK or not!) Also his instructions and suggestions have all been concrete (i.e. slowing down and speeding up on measures 20 and 22, clap or tap the beat and feel it before starting) and not just "you don't count".
She tries to teach me. Also giving appropriate assignments. But I am failing with those assignments (my home work). But she cannot spend unlimited time with me. So I am trying to help her to push this stone, let's put it this way...


Last edited by michaelvi; 09/29/18 04:16 PM.

Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768433
09/29/18 04:46 PM
09/29/18 04:46 PM
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Israel, Haifa
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michaelvi Offline OP
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In this thread I was given many playing and singing samples from Youtube. May I also give some sample and ask a question:
Is it just a consequence of my rhythmic deafness or anyone will understand what I mean saying that:

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768443
09/29/18 06:14 PM
09/29/18 06:14 PM
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PianogrlNW Offline
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Originally Posted by Michaelvi

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music.

Agreed that this amateur pianist maintains good rhythm throughout.

Originally Posted by Michaelvi
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...

Say what? She destroys the rhythmic pattern? This pianist maintains great rhythm throughout.

The two pianists are playing different transcriptions of the same piece, one by Liszt and other by Bernstein.



Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2768458
09/29/18 08:08 PM
09/29/18 08:08 PM
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NobleHouse Offline
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Originally Posted by Michaelvi

1. This home player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5g8ICEwmW0 excelently maintains rhythm. Maybe in some moments he artistically changes tempo to produce some expression, but it fits perfectly this piece of music.

Agreed that this amateur pianist maintains good rhythm throughout.

Originally Posted by Michaelvi
2. while this professional player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXZsiJaKXM completely destroys rhythmic pattern of Beethoven's Turkish March...

Say what? She destroys the rhythmic pattern? This pianist maintains great rhythm throughout.

The two pianists are playing different transcriptions of the same piece, one by Liszt and other by Bernstein.



+1 I thought the professional did an outstanding job with the transcription!

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768470
09/29/18 10:07 PM
09/29/18 10:07 PM
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outo Offline
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If you use a metronome to check professional recordings you will notice that they don't really maintain perfect metronomic beat all the way through. Yet their playing does not usually sound like the rhythm is off. This is because there are elements of rhythm that are crucial and others that can be flexed. I think it is more difficult to learn the basics of good rhythm with romantic music because it just sounds better when played with some freedom. Baroque music is much better to learn rhythmic stability imo.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768479
09/30/18 01:37 AM
09/30/18 01:37 AM
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Nahum Offline
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Originally Posted by michaelvi

This is discouraging... I wanted to code an app that could help me and maybe others... smile


[]She tries to teach me. Also giving appropriate assignments. But I am failing with those assignments (my home work). But she cannot spend unlimited time with me. So I am trying to help her to push this stone, let's put it this way...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr8-AL9XOOY&list=UU6fqDmZ4pyKBMwRtE4VUMvw&index=35

Last edited by Nahum; 09/30/18 01:39 AM.
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