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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767448
09/24/18 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Can you hear how steady and precise his rhythm and inner pulse is?

UPDATE: after 3rd try I think I heard some pulse while he was playing at the beginning, until he started singing. Then I lost it...

Let your foot or hand tap with the music; No need to count or figure out how many beats per measure. Don’t over think it.



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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767459
09/24/18 09:27 PM
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Try this piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyiLIIx2sEI It is entertaining and you'll hear the rhythm before the end of it. (I don't know how to make links)

You could acquire a CD for a ballet class. beginner level. Select one where the pianist uses classical music since it is your preferred music. There will be several different rhythms, well accented.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767462
09/24/18 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by emenelton

For me it is clearly 4/4 but I won't be surprised you you tell me I am wrong


Maybe I do that too much but you’ve only been at it two and half years. That is only a short amount of time. I’ve been there. Spend your time on the basics. That tony rice video was so complicated. Take the queen video and count to that while tapping. Count eighths too.

Anyways your absolutely right; it’s 4/4



Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2767520
09/25/18 07:49 AM
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Quote
Can you hear how steady and precise his rhythm and inner pulse is?


This is a really tricky example of ""pulse", IMHO !

What he's done is to minimize (eliminate?) the _dynamics_ that mark the "strong beat" of the 4/4 rhythm. So Michaelvi's comment -- "There's a pulse?" -- is understandable.

But that rhythm shows up very strongly if you listen to the _melodic pattern_ of his arpeggiated playing. Once or twice per measure, the lowest note of the guitar pattern (for whatever chord he's playing) falls on the "1" or the "3". It's not accented much (if at all); you have to listen for the chord changes.

And once you hear that, and listen for it, you realize that it's rock-steady playing.

Thanks !


. Charles
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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767535
09/25/18 08:53 AM
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This thread (both the OP's posts and some of the replies) has me scratching my head wondering whether adult beginners really do jump in at the deep end and believe they will be able to swim immediately, and if they can't, believe that something is wrong confused.

OK, on that basis, here's an easy-peasy piece with a clear rhythm grin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c92Nmg6gTIo

Alternatively, one might admit that the ability to swim isn't something you're born with (because we haven't evolved into fish yet), and thus need to take lessons and learn it properly.

From something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P1HCW2CwkQ

then this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82haNPKa1W0

And exercises like this is as fast as you need to go. One thing at a time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5N9TgILtYg


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767547
09/25/18 10:32 AM
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Rhythm was never a metronome; rhythm was never a counting ; rhythm is a part of national culture! Or you join her, or you ask how to develop a sense of rhythm!


Last edited by Nahum; 09/25/18 10:35 AM.
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: bennevis] #2767558
09/25/18 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
This thread (both the OP's posts and some of the replies) has me scratching my head wondering whether adult beginners really do jump in at the deep end
OK, on that basis, here's an easy-peasy piece with a clear rhythm grin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c92Nmg6gTIo



That’s a very funny video.

In my opinion, an adult that is smart in other things but is a beginner at playing a musical instrument, thinks their rational upper level thought processes, which actually are a distraction, will allow them to think themselves into acquiring a new skill like playing in time.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767567
09/25/18 12:04 PM
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Trying to remember how I learned this.

Physically with a dash of brain thrown in, rather than the other way around, I guess.

In band we did a lot of counting out loud - one-two-three-four for quarter notes, one-and-two-and-three-and-four-and for eight notes, one-ee-and-a-two-ee-and-a-three-ee-and-a for sixteenth notes. speaking out loud turned it from a mathematical exercise into a physical experience.

Dance was also helpful - because at the level I was at, it was kept simple - big movement on the strong beat of the measure, what ever that beat happened to be.

Still is helpful - I think I mentioned at one point that I indulge myself in a flamenco lesson every now and then. Interesting - the rhythm there gets nuts, and the counting conventions are not intuitive at first - certain dance forms will start on 12 rather than 1, for example. My teacher encourages us to "sing it, don't count it", and that does help in many circumstances.

One other thing I notice when listening to professionals is that if they're playing really fast, I loose my sense of the details of the rhythm, even though the speed may actually bring out the underlying pulse better. So I would definitely use simple music while trying to get my bearings.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Medved1] #2767587
09/25/18 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Medved1
Trying to remember how I learned this.

Physically with a dash of brain thrown in, rather than the other way around, I guess.

counting out loud -

one-two-three-four for quarter notes, one-and-two-and-three-and-four-and for eight notes, one-ee-and-a-two-ee-and-a-three-ee-and-a for sixteenth notes.

speaking out loud turned it from a mathematical exercise into a physical experience.

So I would definitely use simple music while trying to get my bearings.



It’s arguable that rhythm is not a skill but a primitive instinct

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: emenelton] #2767593
09/25/18 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by emenelton

It’s arguable that rhythm is not a skill but a primitive instinct

And the more the mind interferes, the more it hinders to the rhythm.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767655
09/25/18 09:20 PM
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I think I would split the difference on that. Rhythm might have something to do with the reptilian brain. But I don't find that it does much for me unless I layer on some structure.

The structure that works for me (your mileage may vary) uses a physical experience to simplify the counting, so I can actually do the thing, repeat it on demand, and not find myself stuck in a kind of hyper-speed loop where my hands, eyes, ears, and counting are spinning off into different dimensions - each perhaps coherent by itself, but losing any connection with each other.

You could try all kinds of modalities - even walking in time to music, or walking while singing, really anything that combines some music you like with a repetitive activity - might give you a useful base of understanding. Eventually, the need for the physical anchor - counting out loud, patting one hand on the piano lid while the other one plays, tapping the foot, etc - gets less. But it does help at the beginning, and I still use those tools a lot when confronted with a sea of 16th notes.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767657
09/25/18 09:52 PM
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Good advice, Medved. Adding a physical movement to the counting is IMHO essential. That is why I require students to count OUT LOUD very loudly...even counting under their breath or whispering does not work.

Also, I would add that for multi-note rhythms saying a common phrase that matches the notes can be very helpful. For example, for 4 eighth notes, I use "huckleberry" or "avocado" -- four syllable words for 4 note beats. Like Trip- O - Let for triplets.

Here is a chart that has many varieties of this concept:

http://i.stack.imgur.com/JUzLM.jpg


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767663
09/25/18 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rocket88

Here is a chart that has many varieties of this concept:

http://i.stack.imgur.com/JUzLM.jpg
Beautiful advice! To maximize the effect, you can pronounce these words through melodica, as I wrote in http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2572313/re-jazz-melodica-tutorial.html#Post2572313 (and further)

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767672
09/26/18 12:00 AM
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Thinking about it I think my rhythmic sense must have been kept up/improved by my habit of walking a lot with different kind of music in my earphones. During the 25 or so years of not actively doing any music studies I always had music playing when moving around. And I always try to fit my steps to the pulse of the music. I think I also sometimes unconsciously count in my head. While it is a "passive" way of practicing I think it is one reason that I found it so easy to work with rhythm after returning to piano.

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: rocket88] #2767719
09/26/18 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rocket88
Adding a physical movement to the counting is IMHO essential. That is why I require students to count OUT LOUD very loudly...even counting under their breath or whispering does not work.


thumb

Self-consciousness has no place when you're learning music, no matter how silly you feel doing things to develop your musicality. I learnt that rapidly when I had to count aloud, then eventually sing the beats "One, two, three, four" and " one and two and three and four" - in front of my female teacher - when I started piano lessons. But if she could sing the beats in front of me as if it was the most natural thing in the world, so could I in front of her - and then by myself when I was practicing the pieces.

And in any case, it was all necessary for the aural skills part of the ABRSM exams, when I had to sing notes and tunes and beat time.

Here are 100+ teenagers doing all that rhythmic stuff - and slapping themselves, and making funny noises wink - in front of five thousand people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo97ztKppIw

The whole piece (specially composed for the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain) is reliant on the ability to keep time and count beats.

I used to (try to) beat time to any piece I heard on the radio, which at the time were all unfamiliar to me. Everything from the Emperor Concerto (easy) to Le sacre du printemps (impossible....... grin).

Practicing without thinking of it as 'practicing' is the key to achieving eventual mastery.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: bennevis] #2767734
09/26/18 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by rocket88
Adding a physical movement to the counting is IMHO essential. That is why I require students to count OUT LOUD very loudly...even counting under their breath or whispering does not work.


thumb

Self-consciousness has no place when you're learning music, no matter how silly you feel doing things to develop your musicality. I learnt that rapidly when I had to count aloud, then eventually sing the beats "One, two, three, four" and " one and two and three and four" - in front of my female teacher - when I started piano lessons. But if she could sing the beats in front of me as if it was the most natural thing in the world, so could I in front of her - and then by myself when I was practicing the pieces.



Bennevis, excellent point. For a long time I felt silly using my entire body to play the piano instead of suffering by being stiff and only using my hands.

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 09/26/18 09:45 AM.

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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767863
09/26/18 09:48 PM
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Adante=walking tempo (pretty sure)

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2767865
09/26/18 09:52 PM
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I’m not sure if the OP is still around but here is Eric Clapton - do you feel the beat?




Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: emenelton] #2767870
09/26/18 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by emenelton
Adante=walking tempo (pretty sure)

I walk much faster than I'd ever play Andante wink

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: outo] #2767872
09/26/18 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by emenelton
Adante=walking tempo (pretty sure)

I walk much faster than I'd ever play Andante wink


adante translates or means - at a walking pace

but your relaying of how you walk and feel the music goes hand in ‘foot’ haha with how tempo and meter are derived from our ‘gait’

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: PianogrlNW] #2768125
09/28/18 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
I’m not sure if the OP is still around
I am around but mainly at weekend days smile I want to apologize to everyone who is trying to help me here but does not see my reaction - on working days I can occasionally briefly drop in here, but I can’t completely switch to writing posts

Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
here is Eric Clapton - do you feel the beat?
Sorry again, not at all. And again, before he started singing I was able to hear something (not beat exactly but something), with this singing - ... I am 1000 times sorry, don't want to offend anyone, but I don't hear any music, not just beat.. Sorry again, this is just my personal musical preferences...

Originally Posted by Nahum
the more the mind interferes, the more it hinders to the rhythm.
Don't understand at all what you mean here but couldn’t agree more! So the question is: how to deactivate (or suspend) this mind and activate other mechanisms which are more appropriate for the subject - rhythm.


Originally Posted by Dreamingstill
Try this piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyiLIIx2sEI It is entertaining and you'll hear the rhythm before the end of it. (I don't know how to make links)

You could acquire a CD for a ballet class. beginner level. Select one where the pianist uses classical music since it is your preferred music. There will be several different rhythms, well accented.
Thank you for interesting interpretation! Boléro is one of those "triggers" which attracted my attention to music 40 years ago and it is still in my favorite list. It may sound untrue but I can play it from very beginning to very end, entirely, in my head (that specific version from that vinyl where everything began...). But I cannot tell what time signature it is. If I will clap my shoulder it will be uneven and clapping pattern will change back and forth many times during this play.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768150
09/28/18 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi


Originally Posted by Nahum
the more the mind interferes, the more it hinders to the rhythm.
Don't understand at all what you mean here but couldn’t agree more! So the question is: how to deactivate (or suspend) this mind and activate other mechanisms which are more appropriate for the subject - rhythm.

You have already received some answers to your question: walking, dancing are not connected with intellectual activity, but with a sense of rhythm inside the body, and turning it into a percussion instrument. This body drumming is an African tradition (in the past), not European. E.J. Dalcroze was the first who drew attention to this before he developed his revolutionary system of rhythmic education in the early 20th century.
The rhythmic feeling has 2 sources: natural, genetically pledged inside us , and social, when the individual carries within himself the rhythm of whole community. It follows a simple natural conclusion: the improvement of rhythmic hearing is obliged to occur in a group way! If someone is unsure of this, he can ask the participants of this choir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_1ZE7Rwcg - "Who of them trained with the metronome?"

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768155
09/28/18 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_1ZE7Rwcg - "Who of them trained with the metronome?"

Not only is this choir singing with great rhythm but their bodies are also moving together as one. Maybe it is possible that if you grow up never hearing music you have a difficult time feeling the rhythm. It’s kind of puzzling and interesting at the same time.



Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768187
09/28/18 12:52 PM
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Thank you Nahum. Yes, probably my approach to this problem is too analytical, as many other pointed out here. Well, I admit that I am a mathematician by nature. But somehow this fact didn't disturb my tone hearing... Ok, I understood that need to develop other side of my brain smile

Thank you everybody here! Many interesting ideas and tips! They will definitely help me to work on this issue.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: Nahum] #2768203
09/28/18 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk_1ZE7Rwcg - "Who of them trained with the metronome?"



We have no idea how they trained. It is a finished performance. Rehearsals can be very different than the final performance, and the practising of individual musicians between rehearsals is different again. And then you need to know what abilities each musician brought into the choir prior to joining it, and how they got those abilities. Most of us here are people who are learners, so we are at the stage of getting those abilities. "Training with the metronome" would also need to be explained. The metronome is a tool, and a tool can be used in many ways. I've watched quite a few tutorials on drumming, and the metronome was very much in the picture. But how are you using that metronome, and when?

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: rocket88] #2768206
09/28/18 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rocket88
Find a (good) drum teacher who actually works as a drummer and explain what you want.

Solving problems like you (the OP) describes is what they do.


This was my advice (overlooked frown ) early on in this thread, but I still stand by it...Getting your body to accurately move to the rhythm is the essence of drumming, and a good drum teacher can instill that in you much much faster than you can by yourself.

Many music teachers, when asked what second instrument one should study, recommend drums. And, because the piano is both a string instrument and a percussion instrument, Keith Jarrett said, when asked what kind of instrument he played, he replied that he plays drums, and has 88 of them.


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Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768209
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I actually dont understand the problem and don't understand this thread at all.

I personally don't think it is an easy thing to be able to listen an analyse a piece of heard music.

Aside from something very obvious with a beat, e.g. a waltz, I generally can tell you nothing about a heard piece of music.

As an aside: have a listen to a famous waltz smile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmCnQDUSO4I

I really think that it is very difficult and after 14 or so years of lessons I really have never heard of 'rhythm hearing' is a required or necessary skill to learn for piano development.

Not being able to carry out complex rhythms on a piano is quite a different problem.

I normally would buy a sight reading book and do the clapping exercises in this is what helped me.

https://www.musicroom.com/product-d...7ArREAQYAyABEgIQdfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768211
09/28/18 03:16 PM
09/28/18 03:16 PM
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bennevis Online content
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As we're all now agreed that everyone has innate rhythm, if only we allow our bodies (& possibly grey matter) to get on with being innately rhythmic instead of trying to interfere by actually learning to do it from experts wink , I recommend clapping to this simple song. That typically Latin rhythmic figure of alternating 6/8 and 3/4 is innate in all our bones, so let the bones get on with it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3-Sd1MPlhk

Here's Lenny teaching a famous Spanish tenor how to sing a simple song, which is of course innate in his bones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z85iqfprcRI


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768254
09/28/18 06:53 PM
09/28/18 06:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 316
Israel, Haifa
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michaelvi Offline OP
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Israel, Haifa
Originally Posted by rocket88
Originally Posted by rocket88
Find a (good) drum teacher who actually works as a drummer and explain what you want.

Solving problems like you (the OP) describes is what they do.


This was my advice (overlooked frown )
Not at all. Sorry that I somehow left it without response but I stopped at it first time. I even spent some time searching for such teacher in local inet segment. But my problem is that I can only take lessons during weekends... I was lucky enough that my wife's sister happens to be piano teacher and she agreed to work with me on Saturdays smile

Originally Posted by Moo :)
I personally don't think it is an easy thing to be able to listen an analyse a piece of heard music.
...
Not being able to carry out complex rhythms on a piano is quite a different problem.

I normally would buy a sight reading book and do the clapping exercises in this is what helped me.

https://www.musicroom.com/product-d...7ArREAQYAyABEgIQdfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Yes, somehow I ended up with talking about inability to "analyse a piece of heard music" while "to carry out ... rhythms on a piano" is actual description of my problem. As I wrote in first post in this thread THAT is main complain that I receive when I play - "you don't count". Meaning that I am not carrying out rhythms. But to carry them out I first need to recognize them (or to know them, or to feel them), no? Let's leave aside the fact that it is denoted on the score that I am learning - maybe I don't yet read everything from a music sheet. But my teacher plays those pieces for me before asking me to learn them. Besides, many of them I can hear or even already heard a lot of times in professional performances. While I (relatively) easily "recall" what notes I need to play and I hear my notes mistakes IMMEDIATELY when I make them, I do not hear rhythm mistakes AT ALL - that's what bothers me. Thus my conclusion that I need to find a way(s) to train my rhythm sense. And I did get number of suggestions in this thread smile
By the way here is interesting, or rather even more bothering fact about my good tone hearing: when I was about 5 years old my parents wanted a music education for me. I had some preliminary test in musical school and the diagnosis was "musically deaf" - they played a notes on a piano and asked me to name them. So I avoided the terrible fate of suffering piano lessons. And what happened later? My teacher says that after decades of listening music hours every day my hearing was developed. But hey, the time I spent listening notes is exactly the same as time that was listening rhythms!!! Now I think this thread explained me the difference. Thank you all again!


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: How can I improve my rhythm hearing? [Re: michaelvi] #2768281
09/28/18 11:38 PM
09/28/18 11:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,910
Finland
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outo Offline
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Finland
Many people do not seem to hear problems with pulse consistency themselves while they play, that is why they record and listen back. I think to be able to hear oneself go off pulse is either an learned skill or a natural ability. I don't really know where I got it, but it's like having a metronome ticking in the back of my head constantly. And it was really difficult for me in the beginning to go on playing if I noticed myself going off pulse so have had to practice ignoring little inconsistencies and resetting the inner metronome while they happen. But I still tend to get upset about missing the beat even slightly or panic if I have trouble following this internal ticking. So maybe not necessarily only positive to be too good in this type of rhythmic awareness. It's like having a very strict ear for pitch, a note out of tune on the piano can throw one off.

Anyway, I think the ability to maintain pulse should be somewhat internal and can be improved by physical exercises mentioned above. But the ability to understand how to play and count different meters is more of a theoretical skill and can be mathematically solved. I am not sure if you have trouble with only the former?

BTW Researchers have found people who actually are "tone deaf" or "rhythm challenged". These can be actual disabilities, but are very rare. Usually things can always be improved with suitable methods.

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