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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: Lakeviewsteve] #2763996
09/07/18 02:36 PM
09/07/18 02:36 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 32
Sydney, Australia
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parnassus Online content
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Originally Posted by Lakeviewsteve
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I know some here recoil in horror when I point it out but, Renner action parts have a problem with the center pins working out of the flanges after just a few years of use. They also get "mystery sluggushness" where the action center seizes after playing for an hour or two, then let it rest and it will work again. Much less of an issue with NY parts.


If there were an issue, Renner has or will fix it. I've never had an issue with my piano's Renner action.


I felt like Ed was mind reading as I just had a centre pin work its way loose on my renner a few weeks ago. It was interfering with the key next to it and causing weird buzzing noises. Had to get it repinned. Was funny watching the tech choose much thicker pins and still see them slide out!

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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: Lakeviewsteve] #2764024
09/07/18 04:43 PM
09/07/18 04:43 PM
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Posts: 578
Columbus, GA
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S. Phillips Offline
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If there were an issue, Renner has or will fix it. I've never had an issue with my piano's Renner action.[/quote]

The manufacturers have to take it on the chin when things go wrong. Not the subcontractor action company.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
Columbus, GA
New Steinway, Boston and Essex pianos
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Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: S. Phillips] #2764066
09/07/18 09:17 PM
09/07/18 09:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,835
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Online content
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Sally,
Many technicians have pointed out these center pin issue with Renner action parts for many, many years now and I have not seen a substantive response.

When I get a call to serivce a 10 YO grand with a Renner action, I can almost guarantee finding a couple of center pins on the way out if the piano is played often. Other actions can have this problem also, but not with the regularity of Renner.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: James Guo] #2764188
09/08/18 01:56 PM
09/08/18 01:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 578
Columbus, GA
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S. Phillips Offline
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I have had these problems with these actions as well. I live in Georgia. The NY actions work better here. But my comment above is that if a manufacturer installs an action into their piano, it becomes their problem not the actual action manufacturer's. That is why most manufacturers closely inspect and repin to try to make sure this does not happen in their instruments. But if it does and the customers complains the manufacturer has to make it good not the action maker.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
Columbus, GA
New Steinway, Boston and Essex pianos
www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: S. Phillips] #2764201
09/08/18 02:37 PM
09/08/18 02:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 850
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
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Originally Posted by S. Phillips
I have had these problems with these actions as well. I live in Georgia. The NY actions work better here. But my comment above is that if a manufacturer installs an action into their piano, it becomes their problem not the actual action manufacturer's. That is why most manufacturers closely inspect and repin to try to make sure this does not happen in their instruments. But if it does and the customers complains the manufacturer has to make it good not the action maker.


Thanks for the clarification. I had originally misinterpreted your original statement.

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: James Guo] #2764241
09/08/18 06:23 PM
09/08/18 06:23 PM
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New Hampshire
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WilliamTruitt Offline
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Sally, you are of course, talking about Renner parts in newly purchased German Steinways. As long as the piano is in warranty, it would indeed be the obligation of the manufacturer to remedy the parts.

No such luck for a rebuilder putting Renner parts in a Steinway or, for that matter, any number of other makes. There the rebuilder takes it on the chin. These are longstanding problems with Renner parts, and that is why I and a number of other rebuilders no longer use them. I did use them exclusively for quite a period of time.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: James Guo] #2764283
09/09/18 04:11 AM
09/09/18 04:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Paris, France
trandinhnamanh Offline
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Ok, so the whole world uses Hamburg Steinway pianos that have inferior quality Renner action than american made Steinways... wow ha


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: James Guo] #2764284
09/09/18 04:13 AM
09/09/18 04:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Paris, France
trandinhnamanh Offline
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Ok, so the whole world who uses Hamburg Steinway pianos that have inferior quality Renner action than american made Steinways...


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: trandinhnamanh] #2764292
09/09/18 06:29 AM
09/09/18 06:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,520
Melbourne, Australia
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
Ok, so the whole world uses Hamburg Steinway pianos that have inferior quality Renner action than american made Steinways... wow ha


No, you don't read properly - they have to re-pin the action centers to get good durability and reliability out of them.

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: ando] #2764309
09/09/18 09:06 AM
09/09/18 09:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Paris, France
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
Ok, so the whole world uses Hamburg Steinway pianos that have inferior quality Renner action than american made Steinways... wow ha


No, you don't read properly - they have to re-pin the action centers to get good durability and reliability out of them.

Why people around the world didn’t have to re-pin the action centers but only americans?


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: James Guo] #2764333
09/09/18 11:37 AM
09/09/18 11:37 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 184
Chicago
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John305 Online content
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You’re very sensitive about your Hamburg Steinway.


It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: trandinhnamanh] #2764337
09/09/18 11:57 AM
09/09/18 11:57 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
Ok, so the whole world uses Hamburg Steinway pianos that have inferior quality Renner action than american made Steinways... wow ha


No, you don't read properly - they have to re-pin the action centers to get good durability and reliability out of them.

Why people around the world didn’t have to re-pin the action centers but only americans?

There's no reason to assume it's only America. I would guess that all the premium brands from Europe are re-pinning as a matter of course. It's a small expense when taken in context of the price of the instrument. Mid-tier brands are probably not doing it, but servicing them as needs arise.

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: WilliamTruitt] #2764342
09/09/18 12:44 PM
09/09/18 12:44 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,079
Philadelphia/South Jersey
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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt

No such luck for a rebuilder putting Renner parts in a Steinway or, for that matter, any number of other makes. There the rebuilder takes it on the chin. These are longstanding problems with Renner parts, and that is why I and a number of other rebuilders no longer use them. I did use them exclusively for quite a period of time.


Hi William,

We prepare any action in the best possible way before we install it. This means different things for different manufacturers, of course.

I do disagree about Renner making good on issues. Remember about 15 - 20 years ago when there was a bad batch of glue being used on hammers? At the time we were choosing Renner blues often. (This was before they got so hard).

Anyway, we got easily 10 sets of replacement hammers. We also got a set or two of complimentary parts to make up for our labor expenses. I was happy with that. That was much more than another unnamed company did to help out with their obvious design flaws.

My 2 cents,


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: James Guo] #2764364
09/09/18 02:44 PM
09/09/18 02:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,033
Glendale, Ca.
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Dave Ferris Offline
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There is an '84 Hamburg C down at Kim's in OC.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hamburg-Steinway-Model-C-Grand-Piano-/222617576396

Might have to make the trek and hear what all the fuss is about. wink

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: James Guo] #2764682
09/11/18 08:03 AM
09/11/18 08:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 573
New Hampshire
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WilliamTruitt Offline
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Hi Rich:

It has long been my practice to lay out my shanks and whips and check the resistance of each center with a gram guage. If there are only a few, I go ahead and repin as needed. if there are large scale problems, then I return the set to the supplier and have the order refilled or order from another maker. This I do before I mount them on the rails.

Renners typically would come in on the low side for friction but be very consistent. The problems would develop after delivery and after several years of use. Both excessive friction and walking pins were the result. When we go back on our own work and correct the issues that have developed, nobody pays us for our lost time.

You and I have been in the business for a long time. We have experienced that our action parts suppliers can be great for a very long time, then for whatever reasons, issues become apparent. Some of our readers think I am dropping bombs on Renner/german Steinways, but the reality is that all of our suppliers have their good years and bad years.

As for the hammers, I experienced none of the glue issues you did, although I was using the Renner Blues almost exclusively at that time. I did stop using them because of the amount of work required to get them to where they needed to be because they were so hard. That said, the sound was quite beautiful once you got there. Sorry to hear you had those problems.

Thank you for your comments.

Will


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: trandinhnamanh] #2765080
09/12/18 09:13 PM
09/12/18 09:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,362
Orange County, CA
KawaiDon Offline
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Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
No, Hamburg Steinway still have Renner action, because it’s just simply better. They have some new case parts (design, not fabrication) from NY like legs, music stand, and lid prop. It breaks the classic elegance of Hamburg Steinway’s design that never changes since decades, to my eyes. New Hamburg Ds also have hard satin finish option on lid’s upper surface, like Yamaha CFX.


I would like to correct this statement. Steinway pianos do not have a Renner Action. Steinway company contracts with Renner company to manufacture their action parts.

This is a very different thing, as the Steinway action design is very different from the Renner action design.


Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: KawaiDon] #2765115
09/13/18 02:11 AM
09/13/18 02:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Paris, France
trandinhnamanh Offline
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Originally Posted by KawaiDon
Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
No, Hamburg Steinway still have Renner action, because it’s just simply better. They have some new case parts (design, not fabrication) from NY like legs, music stand, and lid prop. It breaks the classic elegance of Hamburg Steinway’s design that never changes since decades, to my eyes. New Hamburg Ds also have hard satin finish option on lid’s upper surface, like Yamaha CFX.


I would like to correct this statement. Steinway pianos do not have a Renner Action. Steinway company contracts with Renner company to manufacture their action parts.

This is a very different thing, as the Steinway action design is very different from the Renner action design.


I think you have to correct ALL the comments above, because they just talk about Renner action, not Hamburg Steinways' action made by Renner ha


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: trandinhnamanh] #2765152
09/13/18 09:06 AM
09/13/18 09:06 AM
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GC13 Offline
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Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
Originally Posted by KawaiDon
Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
No, Hamburg Steinway still have Renner action, because it’s just simply better. They have some new case parts (design, not fabrication) from NY like legs, music stand, and lid prop. It breaks the classic elegance of Hamburg Steinway’s design that never changes since decades, to my eyes. New Hamburg Ds also have hard satin finish option on lid’s upper surface, like Yamaha CFX.


I would like to correct this statement. Steinway pianos do not have a Renner Action. Steinway company contracts with Renner company to manufacture their action parts.

This is a very different thing, as the Steinway action design is very different from the Renner action design.


I think you have to correct ALL the comments above, because they just talk about Renner action, not Hamburg Steinways' action made by Renner ha


I understand what you're saying, but isn't that just a technicality in the terminology used to refer to the Renner actions in Steinway pianos? It seems like we're trying to shift the blame for the pinning issue from Renner to Steinway, which may well be the case if Steinway is dictating the wrong size pin. But bottom line is, if there are pinning problems with Renner actions parts installed in Steinway pianos (or any other brand for that matter) there are issues that should be considered. I trust the knowledge and experience of the technicians who have commented on that issue.

I have a WNG action in my Steinway B. It's a WNG action, but it's modeled after the NY Steinway actions for the specific models. My rebuilder verified to me that the information I had read here on PW about pinning issues with the WNG composite actions was true early on and that he often chose to repin them. He said that WNG was responsive to feedback from the field and made the necessary adjustments, so re-pinning is no longer required.

Maybe it's a little different with Hamburg Steinway, but wouldn't Renner have to have specific action designs for every make and model of piano they build for be it Bosendorfer, Baldwin, Bechstein, etc? How is the relationship with Steinway different? I thought the NY and Hamburg actions were complete different designs. Am I wrong about that?

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: trandinhnamanh] #2765154
09/13/18 09:12 AM
09/13/18 09:12 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,550
Georgia, USA
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Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh

I think you have to correct ALL the comments above, because they just talk about Renner action, not Hamburg Steinways' action made by Renner ha


Not really. In addition to the NY factory pianos (new and old) that she sells and maintains for pianists, institutions, and other clients, Sally Phillips regularly services recently-made Hamburg Steinway D's in concert halls and client homes throughout the southeastern US. Have been there when she's done it on more than one occasion...

I'd be willing to wager that she's forgotten more than you know about the matter.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: GC13] #2765163
09/13/18 10:24 AM
09/13/18 10:24 AM
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Reseda, California
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Originally Posted by GC13

Maybe it's a little different with Hamburg Steinway, but wouldn't Renner have to have specific action designs for every make and model of piano they build for be it Bosendorfer, Baldwin, Bechstein, etc? How is the relationship with Steinway different?


Renner will build a custom stack for any piano you want to rebuild. To do that, they have to know where the capstans are and where the strings are (and where to strike them). With that, they can tweak a standard design of theirs to fit. Likely this is a CAD/CAM process. The high volume OEM work is likely subject to a lot more input from the customer.


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: Dave Ferris] #2765844
09/16/18 10:27 AM
09/16/18 10:27 AM
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Posts: 11
Vienna, Austria
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OE1FEU Offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
There is an '84 Hamburg C down at Kim's in OC.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hamburg-Steinway-Model-C-Grand-Piano-/222617576396

Might have to make the trek and hear what all the fuss is about. wink


Don't bother. The C is actually a B that wants to be a D - and doesn't do justice to any end of the scale.

Although it might be interesting for you to compare the C action to the one of your NY D, but that largely depends on how it's been regulated and may not represent the best a Hamburg action can give you.

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: GC13] #2765860
09/16/18 11:42 AM
09/16/18 11:42 AM
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Posts: 578
Columbus, GA
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S. Phillips Offline
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The design of the action parts made by Renner for the Hamburg actions is virtually identical except for the graphite surface on the top of the repetition lever as opposed to the emeralon surface of NY parts. The angle of the wippen cushion is slightly different. But aside from that the parts are identical in dimension. The other difference currently is that the NY keys and frame use the 1/2 round bearing point and the Hamburg keys are set on a cloth punching. Both the New York and Hamburg key sets are made by Kluge which is wholly owned by Steinway. So the prime difference in the actions are in the keyset and frame which are not made by Renner.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
Columbus, GA
New Steinway, Boston and Essex pianos
www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: JohnSprung] #2765864
09/16/18 11:59 AM
09/16/18 11:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11
Vienna, Austria
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OE1FEU Offline
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Vienna, Austria
Originally Posted by JohnSprung


and Hamburg Steinway opened in 1885



Not quite. The Hamburg factory opened in 1880, but in the first years it was just an assembly plant for pianos shipped from Queens.

However, even the earlier models have already had action compatibility to today's Renner action in central parts such as the repetition levers. It's therefore pretty safe to say that Steinway played a major role in 'inspiring' Renner to produce actions that were compatible with then and future pianos from Hamburg. It's always been a close collaboration.

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: John305] #2765888
09/16/18 02:04 PM
09/16/18 02:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Paris, France
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Originally Posted by John305
You’re very sensitive about your Hamburg Steinway.


So? Any wrong with it?


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: trandinhnamanh] #2765890
09/16/18 02:38 PM
09/16/18 02:38 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,499
Florida
dogperson Offline
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Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
Originally Posted by John305
You’re very sensitive about your Hamburg Steinway.


So? Any wrong with it?


It’s only wrong when you are derisive to other pianos

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: dogperson] #2765899
09/16/18 03:37 PM
09/16/18 03:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Paris, France
trandinhnamanh Offline
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Paris, France
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh
Originally Posted by John305
You’re very sensitive about your Hamburg Steinway.


So? Any wrong with it?


It’s only wrong when you are derisive to other pianos


Not to Faziolis, Bösendorfers or Steingraebers... pianos for sure.


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: OE1FEU] #2766083
09/17/18 05:22 PM
09/17/18 05:22 PM
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Posts: 269
Maryland, USA
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
There is an '84 Hamburg C down at Kim's in OC.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hamburg-Steinway-Model-C-Grand-Piano-/222617576396

Might have to make the trek and hear what all the fuss is about. wink


Don't bother. The C is actually a B that wants to be a D - and doesn't do justice to any end of the scale.

Although it might be interesting for you to compare the C action to the one of your NY D, but that largely depends on how it's been regulated and may not represent the best a Hamburg action can give you.


I have only ever played on one Hamburg C, new, very recently (one month ago) at Steinway Hall New York. I probably heard performances on a few more in the past. But that one C was one of the best pianos I've ever played.

In fact, not trying to stir up a fire about brand comparison again, on that same day 20 minutes later I was at Faust Harrison, and played their Fazioli F228. In my 100% subjective view, and by no means I dislike the F228, but that specific C beats that specific F228.


1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: James Guo] #2766089
09/17/18 05:44 PM
09/17/18 05:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 578
Columbus, GA
S
S. Phillips Offline
500 Post Club Member
S. Phillips  Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 578
Columbus, GA
I have a really nice C that I love. And I played that C in Steinway Hall in NY a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was fantastic.

Just to compare, if you have good headphones or speakers, here is a Hamburg D that i just rebuilt this summer on it's first week back in service. The last piece, the Brahms clarinet sonata probably shows it off the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j5SYLLiXdg


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
Columbus, GA
New Steinway, Boston and Essex pianos
www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: Davdoc] #2766101
09/17/18 07:09 PM
09/17/18 07:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Paris, France
trandinhnamanh Offline
Full Member
trandinhnamanh  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 153
Paris, France
Originally Posted by Davdoc
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
There is an '84 Hamburg C down at Kim's in OC.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hamburg-Steinway-Model-C-Grand-Piano-/222617576396

Might have to make the trek and hear what all the fuss is about. wink


Don't bother. The C is actually a B that wants to be a D - and doesn't do justice to any end of the scale.

Although it might be interesting for you to compare the C action to the one of your NY D, but that largely depends on how it's been regulated and may not represent the best a Hamburg action can give you.


I have only ever played on one Hamburg C, new, very recently (one month ago) at Steinway Hall New York. I probably heard performances on a few more in the past. But that one C was one of the best pianos I've ever played.

In fact, not trying to stir up a fire about brand comparison again, on that same day 20 minutes later I was at Faust Harrison, and played their Fazioli F228. In my 100% subjective view, and by no means I dislike the F228, but that specific C beats that specific F228.

Attention! You should be very sensitive about Hamburg Steinway, too! grin ha


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02C
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York [Re: S. Phillips] #2766144
09/17/18 11:06 PM
09/17/18 11:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,033
Glendale, Ca.
D
Dave Ferris Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Dave Ferris  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,033
Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted by S. Phillips
I have a really nice C that I love. And I played that C in Steinway Hall in NY a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was fantastic.

Just to compare, if you have good headphones or speakers, here is a Hamburg D that i just rebuilt this summer on it's first week back in service. The last piece, the Brahms clarinet sonata probably shows it off the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j5SYLLiXdg



Listening over Neumann KH120s and Senn HD650s with a Benchmark DAC3, the piano sounds excellent ! Congrats on such a fine job and thanks for posting.

Was it a complete rebuild - new soundboard, etc. ? What year is it ?

I haven't braved the traffic to go down to Kim's yet but I did speak with another Pro player down in OC, whose opinion I respect, who had been in to play the '84 Hamburg C. He didn't care for it. Thought it was too bright and the action was stiff he said. He liked the Yamaha CX7 much better he said he tried at another store. Fwiw, he's a Jazz guy like me.

Certainly not fair to compare a 34 year old piano that might highly benefit from a complete major regulation and extensive voicing with a brand new piano. But just thought I'd pass that on.

Like I posted in another thread I only had one experience with a re-built C and it was not a piano I would care to own. I'd have no doubt the new ones, like the one at Steinway Hall, are quite incredible.

Pierre has an early 2000 something Fazioli 228 at his store that I need to get over there and play.

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