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Sales Confusion #2765478
09/14/18 01:13 PM
09/14/18 01:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1
C
choi_mama Offline OP
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choi_mama  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1
I recently ventured into the looking for an upright piano after several years of using a Casio digital. I have been saving for quite some time and hovering over this site for information. My goal is to find my piano by Christmas – despite reading up as much as I could on this site (tx- pianoworld), I left two of my three visits more confused than enlightened (one store- was very busy and I will head back next week to try their Kawais). As my own savings are complimented by family, I want to make sure I find the piano that will be the right one for me and my family.


The first store I visited is close to me. It has several used instruments and carries also Hailun pianos. The salesperson let me wander and play several instruments but once I disclosed to her that I was looking at Yamaha uprights, she opened the front covers of one of the pianos and got into explaining the differences of the Hailun piano. I took detailed notes but even after perusing this site, the Hailun webpage and google search to check on the truthfulness of what she told me, I am left to wonder. So here are my notes/questions on the Hailun upright (and the claims on Yamaha by this salesperson): What is a full perimeter plate? She said Hailun has it but Yamaha does not. She also claimed that Hailun’s plate is heavier and makes a better sound? Is that true? She also said that Hailun pianos are sturdier built and that they export the same instruments worldwide vs. Yamaha has to make for every market different pianos in order for them to be stable (She had a Yamaha in her shop and claimed that it was originally made for Japan). So is Yamaha’s plate really lighter? Do they make different pianos for each country? She also said that the Hailun upright has a duplex system and claimed that usually only grands have duplex and not uprights, and that it was important for the sound. So my question, does the Hailun upright have duplex and what does it do/ is it important to the sound? She also mentioned that Hailun has the longest warranty in the industry and it is transerable (and Yamaha’s is not) and that I could exchange the instrument if I did not like it. There were several other points that she mentioned that I did not jot down well enough.

All in all, the visit was nice but I left not sure if all these things are true or what they mean. My next stop, was the local Yamaha dealer. They had no used pianos but the store I visited had also Sauter and Hoffman pianos from Germany. There, another saleslady approached me pretty much right after entering the store. She too asked me what I had been considering and I told her that I had played and seen a Hailun and was intend to try a Kawai piano. She said that Yamaha has been around for 100 years and that the brand is much stronger (she compared it to Samsung…) and that Hailun is not a trusted brandname. She said that the Hailun is very pricey for the quality that Hailun has. And that the resale value of Hailun will be low. She offered me a silent piano to consider. She also said that before the 10 years are over they will trade up the Yamaha at the full value that I buy it for. And that is important to buy from their store which has been in business for 50 years (I do not know how long the Hailun store has been in business). She offered also 3 free tunings (at value of CAD 135 plus GST). She said that Hailun has metal keyrest that interferes with the sound and that all high quality pianos have only wooden keyrests. Only Chinese pianos make use of a metal keyrest. She also said that some parts in the Hailun piano are made of plastic? In the course of the conversation, the lady showed me actually a laminated chart in her sales folder on Hailun with 15 points to watch out for when buying Hailun which were things that customers had come and complained to her about Hailun. She mentioned, that Hailun has a three-layer soundboard- it is not a one-piece solid piece of soundboard – and that would be a problem when selling it in the future? I just don’t know enough to assess that claim– but Yamaha is, at least here in Canada, very well known. She also said that the value of the piano goes down when such a soundboard is used. She also mentioned that Chinese pianos have a bad reputation in the market and are not know for quality which I found from reading here on pianoworld is not necessarily the common opinion, and I wrote it off as her sales pitch. The Yamaha saleslady did not open the piano front as at the Hailun dealer but the store had a larger selection. Unfortunately, I did not get to play the piano that much as I was running out of time.

I will head back to the stores this weekend and try to spend more time playing the pianos rather than talking to the salespeople (including a Kawai which is on my list). If anyone has any input on my questions or can provide some perspective what the important points to consider are, what should I discard ….. will let you know how my visit to Kawai goes.

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Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2765498
09/14/18 03:06 PM
09/14/18 03:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 115
North Vancouver
L
Lady Bird Online content
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Lady Bird  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 115
North Vancouver
From my experience a Yahama u1 is probably a better buy than a Hailun .I have tried the Hailun but was not much impressed by the tone .I would not buy a used Yahama piano especially made forJapan .These pianos are often worn out by over use in schools and institutions in Japan .They say that they are refirbished whatever that means ?I know they are heavily painted with polyester and so they all LOOK great ,but often have tuning problems or unequal action .You are safer with a regular Yamaha u1 or u3 made for North America .If your budget extends to being able to buy a real German piano you could try the Sauter piano.Kawai also make great pianos so you could look at that as well. Enjoy!

Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2765539
09/14/18 05:56 PM
09/14/18 05:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,887
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joe80 Offline
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joe80  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,887
Hello and welcome to the forum.

Oh it sounds like you've been caught in the crossfire between two dealers with competing products and so they don't have anything good to say about each other.

First of all I'll cut to the chase.

Yamaha make great pianos. They are not by any stretch of the imagination cheap, but they are high quality. They have great tone, they are reliable and they are trusted by institutions worldwide.

Hailun make great pianos. They are not quite as well-known as Yamaha. They sound different to Yamaha. Some prefer it, others don't. In this country a Feurich piano (Hailun's brand here) costs about half the price of the equivalent Japanese Yamaha. I prefer the sound and touch of the Yamaha, but that's personal. I think the Yamaha is more refined.

For you, upgrading from a digital piano, both makes are good, both are reliable, and both will last for years.

All this stuff about "Yamaha do this but Hailun don't" and "Hailun do this but Yamaha don't" is all stuff we've all heard before between competing brands. It happens at the top end too (Fazioli are good pianos but they're no Steinway, say Steinway. Steinways are OK but they're not as high quality as Fazioli, says the Fazioli dealer....).

If you like the Hailun, and are happy with it, don't pay more for the Yamaha. If you love the Yamaha and you're happy to pay for it, buy it. Either way you won't really lose.

Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2765551
09/14/18 06:35 PM
09/14/18 06:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,557
Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
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PianoWorksATL  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,557
Atlanta, GA
Oh boy. I could go point by point to clarify features/benefits of the various pianos, but it's secondary to the most important part, playing and listening.

The sales person for the Hailun presented features and benefits of the models in comparison. Some were understood and some were not, but it sounds like the presentation was kept positive.

The sales person representing the Yamaha glossed over any direct comparisons and instead used Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt to attack a competitor rather than highlighting their product. That approach can be effective in swaying a customer, but it is the opposite of helpful.

Considering how many pianos, parts & components Yamaha makes in China, how many of their instruments include laminate soundboards, there is a disconnect in what Yamaha does and what the store's salesperson was saying.

Directly comparing a Yamaha U1 to Hailun HU-1P is an interesting comparison of designs and construction. Hailun's innovations are not cost saving design changes, but do bolster the piano's performance and durability. The full perimeter plate is a good thing, but not more important than the overall performance. On that price level of piano, Hailun's surface tension or modern laminate soundboard is a good thing, but not more important than the overall performance. The fact that the Hailun has only solid or laminate wood in it, while the Yamaha U1 uses MDF for non-structural panels is a plus for Hailun, but not a game changer by itself.

You might do well to find an unbiased pianist to help you shop and keep the sales staff at arms length until you form some basic opinions about the performance.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
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Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2765552
09/14/18 06:36 PM
09/14/18 06:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 115
North Vancouver
L
Lady Bird Online content
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Lady Bird  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 115
North Vancouver
Another thing do not think a longer warranty means a better quality piano .Its often the opposite!

Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2765579
09/14/18 09:14 PM
09/14/18 09:14 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 782
Chicago Suburban
M
MarkL Offline
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MarkL  Offline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 782
Chicago Suburban
I just went through buying an acoustic piano after having a digital for years. I went to the piano stores and told them I planned to move around the store and play different pianos for a few hours every saturday when I had time, and after a month or so I'd make a decision. They pretty much left me alone then. And after about 6 weeks I bought a piano. I'd focus totally on how the piano feels and sounds to you, and forget all the other stuff. Any name brand is made well enough to serve your needs. You could also try going to your local community college or university and ask if they'll let you try their pianos. Our local community college has a few dozen pianos that I was able to try.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2765590
09/14/18 10:58 PM
09/14/18 10:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 595
Arkansas
S
supersport Offline
500 Post Club Member
supersport  Offline
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S
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 595
Arkansas
Hi,

Check out a K-400 if they have one at the Kawai store as the music desk and fallboard look very nice and it is the K-300 it seems inside.


David



Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2765592
09/14/18 11:22 PM
09/14/18 11:22 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 95
P
Pneuma Offline
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Pneuma  Offline
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 95
I was in your position 2 years ago. I think the consensus on this forum is that Hailun has been in the market long enough to prove its quality. You don't need to worry that a Hailun piano will break down with regular practices. Yamaha and Kawai are of course long standing and well established. They are all quality pianos especially if you buy new.

Whatever the sales persons told you, it all comes down to tone and touch. Find one that you like the tone and touch the most and you can afford. Or like someone suggested, find a trusted and experienced pianist to shop with you.

If you are worried about resale value, then the reality is Yamaha > Kawai > any Chinese brands. In case you have not read the Piano Buyer, please read it first: https://www.pianobuyer.com/

Last edited by Pneuma; 09/14/18 11:23 PM.
Re: Sales Confusion [Re: MarkL] #2765601
09/15/18 02:15 AM
09/15/18 02:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,643
Kuwait
PhilipInChina Online content
3000 Post Club Member
PhilipInChina  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,643
Kuwait
Originally Posted by MarkL
I just went through buying an acoustic piano after having a digital for years. I went to the piano stores and told them I planned to move around the store and play different pianos for a few hours every saturday when I had time, and after a month or so I'd make a decision. They pretty much left me alone then. And after about 6 weeks I bought a piano. I'd focus totally on how the piano feels and sounds to you, and forget all the other stuff. Any name brand is made well enough to serve your needs. You could also try going to your local community college or university and ask if they'll let you try their pianos. Our local community college has a few dozen pianos that I was able to try.


A little anecdote.

I have two friends who are brothers and retail locksmiths. I was once in their shop when one of them showed me a particular part of a UPVC door locking system. He told me that the manufacturer guarantees to replace the part, free of charge, should it fail in use. I said that that showed confidence in their product. His reply has stayed with me:

"No. They are such total **** that without that guarantee, nobody would use them".


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Sales Confusion [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2765784
09/15/18 11:20 PM
09/15/18 11:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,178
Toronto, Ontario
P
Peter K. Mose Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Peter K. Mose  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,178
Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Oh boy. I could go point by point to clarify features/benefits of the various pianos, but it's secondary to the most important part, playing and listening.

The sales person for the Hailun presented features and benefits of the models in comparison. Some were understood and some were not, but it sounds like the presentation was kept positive.



I love Sam's "Oh boy" opening, because that was in my head also. But this hardly sounds like a positive Hailun sales presentation to me, instead an adolescent damning of rival Yamaha. At least, that is what I would take away as a piano shopper. No wonder first-time poster Choi (welcome!) is confused, and looks forward to avoiding sales staff in the future. I'd be the same.

If I were that Hailun salesperson, I would simply say, "Please sit down and play your heart out on these Hailuns. Or let me play a few of them for you. Then by all means try some Yamahas, since they are clearly also fine instruments. Come back to our store as many times as you wish. We are very proud of these instruments, and trust that they sell themselves. I'm happy to spout technical specs, or snow you with Hailun marketing lines, because that is what piano salespeople often do. But I'd prefer that you just make yourself at home, and let me know if you have any questions."

Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2766525
09/19/18 07:14 PM
09/19/18 07:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,557
Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
3000 Post Club Member
PianoWorksATL  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,557
Atlanta, GA
I'll speak a little more in this thread because there is more than a little bit of dismissive language being used. There are differences in the models that contribute to the value. There are differences in the presentations even with the modest details from the OP. There is a difference in the warranty and guarantee.

I'd like to quickly state that in my dealings with Yamaha, I've always found their company staff to be very professional and careful to promote their products, not undermine competition. This is not true of all companies nor sales staff at the dealer level. We ain't perfect.

Hailun does use a full perimeter plate in the popular HU-1P and HU-5P models as well as some of the less common 52" models. It is heavier. It's purpose is to be a completely rigid structure in the corner of the upright frame where most plates stop. In fact, on the lower-priced Hailun model 121, it has a more typical plate that does not extend to the lower corners of the piano.

Extra rigidity in the frame contributes to increased dynamic range, tuning stability, and overall longevity especially in less-than-ideal environments.

Hailun uprights have modern laminate soundboards (all spruce with solid spruce core). The clear benefit is greater resistance to environmental variations over a solid spruce. *While the highest quality solid spruce boards offer performance benefit (tone, color, dynamic range), the mid-grade solid spruce soundboards that are found in any mass produced upright DO NOT offer any of these performance benefits over the equivalent modern laminate soundboard. In an ideal environment, the soundboard on the Hailun and Yamaha upright will perform comparably. In a less than ideal environment, the advantage goes to the Hailun soundboard.

Yamaha's warranty is 10 years. Hailun's is 15 years + transferable. Hailun also offers "Dream Assurance" guarantee, separate from the warranty.

I will state that for several years now, Yamaha's model U1 has probably the highest resale value of any piano brand and model, but that same resale % is far less for other models from the brand. The B-series, M-series, etc. have resale values that are comparable to many less famous competitors. And while the U3 has long-term resale value that is well above average, the initial depreciation is steep as are other competitors in the first 5-8 years. The transferable warranty on the Hailun helps resale value by lasting beyond the initial depreciation.

I mentioned before that in the Hailun HU-1P and HU-5P, there is no MDF or fiberboard. The hardware used inside the piano is higher grade. They use agraffes in the bass and other upgraded string terminations in the tenor and treble. The keybed is cast aluminum instead of laminate. The strings are nickel plated for additional resistance to corrosion. These are upgrades, not marketing fluff, and these are not the only differences.

I would support the idea that the Hailun salesperson was trying to relate this information while the competitor was attacking with "fake news". It's always tempting to leave high ground to join the scrum. The result is a piano of greater musical potential at a competitive cost. This is the essence of competition. Yamaha was once the hunter and faced so many cheap shots, and now they are the hunted.

Improved features should equate to a tangible improvement in performance, and the dealer prep is the last opportunity to show each instrument in it's best light. That is when your senses, your personal preferences should be allowed to take over. Both are good, very viable choices.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2766614
09/20/18 08:24 AM
09/20/18 08:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 195
Australia
UnderConstruction Offline
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UnderConstruction  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 195
Australia
Thought I might chime in here with my two cents as an x-Yamaha grand owner who switched to a Feurich grand (Hailun made) piano. I know these are grands and not uprights, but hey, we're talking manufacturers now right? smile

Short of it is that I am constantly amazed by the sound and touch of my Feurich 218. I travel a lot for work, and every time I get back home and lay my fingers on the keys to play a few notes, my ears thank me for buying the instrument, and my brain thanks me for not over paying. I often doubt myself as to whether this is just me fooling myself into thinking that I made the right choice, since I grew up with a Yamaha grand as well. So to test that, I occasionally go into a shop and play a Yamaha CX series grand, and so far, I am still really happy with the choice I made.

While I get that this is not exactly the same as comparing uprights, what is the same is that it really comes down to how you like the sound and the touch like others have suggested already. I am planning to keep my Feurich (after going through several digitals, then to a Yamaha grand, then now the Feurich) for the long term, so I really wasn't fussed about resale, as resale value in the piano industry is mostly based on the general public's perception of a brand. From what I hear, Hailun is quickly making its mark among pianists and technicians in recent years, and I can understand why, they are well built pianos. I also know that the very reputable Cunningham Pianos are partnering with Hailun in their own line up of Cunningham Grands.

Besides brand, and quality, the other thing that would be important to me if I were buying an upright would be the speed of repetition. Depending on what you play, for me speed of repetition of a piano is very important. I know that the Yamahas / Kawai's all use the same design that they have used for many many years, and on uprights, this generally means not particularly fast repetition. Yes, you can regulate them to have faster repetition, but it takes a lot of work to keep it that way. I actually currently own a Kawai upright K-300 (I know... a bit much smile ), and while I think its a fantastic sounding upright (but sounds very different to the Feurich), the repetition is just not quite there. Feurich uprights has some modern design which allows it to repeat virtually as fast as grand pianos, I tried this out myself and it really does work. What I am not sure about is whether this repetition mechanism is actually in the Hailun uprights?

All the technical stuff from the Hailun dealer is probably true, but duplex scaling doesn't necessarily make a piano sound better, some of the world's most beautiful sounding Boesendorfers doesn't have duplex scale. Duplex scale is just a way of creating and emphasizing certain overtones and building that into the design of the piano, but pianos without duplex scale will also produce overtones. My Feurich 218 in fact has "triplex scale" on certain registers, but I actually disliked the overtone of a certain section so much that I muted it because it sounded more like noise to me. The thing about heavier plates (the whole wet cast vs vacuum molded) has some truth to it, but mostly because wet cast plates generally needs to be thicker than vacuum molded plates, and when you have thicker plates, they tend to vibrate less freely with the sound the piano is producing, which allows the designer to have better control over the tonal qualities of the piano. If you are interested in the technical side of the piano, there is a good article to read about technical talk in piano sales, which is here.

End of the day, I'd say you'll have to find the balance between the three important things:
- Sound;
- Touch;
- Price;

I'd ignore the sales pitch (which sounds like you have been fed by both the Hailun dealer and also the Yamaha lady, and I probably would have been put off by the negative sales pitch of the Yamaha dealer) and sales pressure. I am pretty sure modern day new pianos made by Yamaha, Kawai and Hailun are all of solid quality, so would just ignore the technical talk, just play, listen, feel, play, listen, feel and repeat. Enjoy the buying journey, the piano will always be there, you only get to spend this money once.

My two cents.

Last edited by UnderConstruction; 09/20/18 08:26 AM.

Still deciding whether I am playing for fun or playing to improve... leaning towards fun :-)
2017 Feurich 218
Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2766640
09/20/18 11:24 AM
09/20/18 11:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 656
Wisconsin, USA
L
Lakeviewsteve Offline
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Lakeviewsteve  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 656
Wisconsin, USA
Yes go back to more stores and write all about each one and your thoughts on each piano. Thank you.


Bösendorfer 170
Re: Sales Confusion [Re: Lady Bird] #2766657
09/20/18 12:21 PM
09/20/18 12:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,705
The Heart of Screenland
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KurtZ Offline
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KurtZ  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,705
The Heart of Screenland
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Another thing do not think a longer warranty means a better quality piano .Its often the opposite!



As someone who has been in electronics repair for close on to 30 some years, this is frequently true. Not always but frequently. Why? Well, in electronics, repair is cheaper than QC. Since we're on pianos, I'll point out a shining exception. Kawai has a long and transferable warranty and they make excellent high quality products that they stand behind both in electronics and pianos.

Kurt


**********************************************************************************************************
Co-owner (by marriage) and part time customer service rep at an electronic musical equipment repair shop.
Re: Sales Confusion [Re: choi_mama] #2766700
09/20/18 03:35 PM
09/20/18 03:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 115
North Vancouver
L
Lady Bird Online content
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Lady Bird  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 115
North Vancouver
Don,t know where the Choi mama has gone !


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