Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
63 registered members (accordeur, AssociateX, AprilE, bennevis, Angelos58, 18 invisible), 1,311 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
My kid does not memorize the song #2765097
09/12/18 09:37 PM
09/12/18 09:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
J
jasminenv Offline OP
Junior Member
jasminenv  Offline OP
Junior Member
J

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
Hello everyone,

My daughter could play a song well but if she forgets or gets stuck in middle of the song, she has the tendency to restart from the beginning. My questions are:

1) How should her teacher correct this issue?
2) She does the theory test well every year (she is in fourth grade currently and has been studying piano for 4 years with same teacher) but it seems that she does not make the connection between the theory and practice, even her teacher said that. Is there something wrong with the way her teacher trains her?
3) she seems to lose interest with this teacher. Is it about time I explore other options (meaning switching teacher?)

Thanks for your feedback


jasmine
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765112
09/13/18 12:35 AM
09/13/18 12:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
It's hard to say. What kind of music is she playing right now?


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765145
09/13/18 06:31 AM
09/13/18 06:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,059
W
wouter79 Offline
5000 Post Club Member
wouter79  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
W

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,059
1) How should her teacher correct this issue?
Regarding restarting from the beginning, yes a teacher should IMHO explain how to study effectively. However effective learning seems usually not to be teached, neither in normal school nor in music school...

>2) She does the theory test well every year (she is in fourth grade currently and has been studying piano for 4 years with same teacher) but it seems that she does not make the connection between the theory and practice, even her teacher said that. Is there something wrong with the way her teacher trains her?

There are different phases in making music : analyzing the piece, interpreting, determining fingerings, playing, Also you can do sight reading, play from memory, etc.
There are different types of theory, that are not equally suited for these different phases.

it is not clear what combination of phase and theory you are actually talking about.
I understand she can do analysis but does the teacher ask her to analyze the pieces that she actually plays?


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765180
09/13/18 10:38 AM
09/13/18 10:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
T
tillyfloss Offline
Junior Member
tillyfloss  Offline
Junior Member
T

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10

Are we talking about 2 different issues?

1. That having memorised a piece she cannot pick up again from where she stumbles

or
2. That she isn't reading very well i.e. applying the theory, and so is trying to memorise instead of reading?

Both would need different approaches to resolve.

If it's just a case of constantly going back to the beginning when things go wrong, that can sometimes simply be a case of immaturity. The number of times I've had to explain to students that they need to resolve the issue and then build it back into the piece, could fill a library. The message tends to get through when they are ready to listen and put it into practice - as they mature. 4th Grade? Does that make her about 9? (I'm in a different country).

Not making the connection between theory and practice is common if the theory is seen as something completely separate from creating sound. I've just inherited a youngster who apparently has completed Grade 2 theory but has no idea what a treble clef signifies and can no longer write one - because that was something she did at the beginning and has since moved on from.

Part of teaching I think, requires a constant flagging up of those connections using one method or another until it begins to dawn on them. However even that is likely to be unsuccessful until they make the effort to take it on board themselves.

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765182
09/13/18 10:43 AM
09/13/18 10:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
Making some educated guesses on the first issue.
Originally Posted by jasminenv

My daughter could play a song well but if she forgets or gets stuck in middle of the song, she has the tendency to restart from the beginning. My questions are:

1) How should her teacher correct this issue?

The way lessons should happen, a student would be taught how to practice. This is a separate thing. What often does happen is that the teacher will work on the piece with the student during the lesson, assign which measures or whole pieces are to be practised, and maybe stress things like "remember that F#" or "remember to play the melody louder". That isn't teaching how to practice.

How to practice involves things like breaking the piece into smaller sections, which in the first year may be marked out by the teacher. There may also be an hierarchy of skills or tasks: first focus on correct notes on fingering, going as slow as you need: the next day focus (another thing), for each section. It's barely necessary at the lowest level, but it sets up habits that will be used as pieces get harder and more complicated.

So: If your daughter does this, and has been with the same teacher for four years, did she get taught how to practice? Since she would have been young when she got started, were you guided in how to guide her - like how she should be practising?

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765225
09/13/18 12:22 PM
09/13/18 12:22 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 670
Moscow, Russia
I
Iaroslav Vasiliev Offline
500 Post Club Member
Iaroslav Vasiliev  Offline
500 Post Club Member
I

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 670
Moscow, Russia
Answering to question 1), you and the teacher should imho simply be more assertive in that matter. Don't let her play from the beginning, stop her immediately every time it happens and make her continue playing from the place of a mistake.

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: AZNpiano] #2765244
09/13/18 01:08 PM
09/13/18 01:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
J
jasminenv Offline OP
Junior Member
jasminenv  Offline OP
Junior Member
J

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
Thanks for the feedback. She is playing classical music


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765246
09/13/18 01:16 PM
09/13/18 01:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
J
jasminenv Offline OP
Junior Member
jasminenv  Offline OP
Junior Member
J

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
I don't think her teacher asked her to analyze the piece, I could be wrong, but I have not seen her doing that...


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: tillyfloss] #2765249
09/13/18 01:23 PM
09/13/18 01:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
J
jasminenv Offline OP
Junior Member
jasminenv  Offline OP
Junior Member
J

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
Originally Posted by tillyfloss

Are we talking about 2 different issues?

1. That having memorised a piece she cannot pick up again from where she stumbles

or
2. That she isn't reading very well i.e. applying the theory, and so is trying to memorise instead of reading?

Both would need different approaches to resolve.



If it's just a case of constantly going back to the beginning when things go wrong, that can sometimes simply be a case of immaturity. The number of times I've had to explain to students that they need to resolve the issue and then build it back into the piece, could fill a library. The message tends to get through when they are ready to listen and put it into practice - as they mature. 4th Grade? Does that make her about 9? (I'm in a different country).

Not making the connection between theory and practice is common if the theory is seen as something completely separate from creating sound. I've just inherited a youngster who apparently has completed Grade 2 theory but has no idea what a treble clef signifies and can no longer write one - because that was something she did at the beginning and has since moved on from.

Part of teaching I think, requires a constant flagging up of those connections using one method or another until it begins to dawn on them. However even that is likely to be unsuccessful until they make the effort to take it on board themselves.



She can read well but often gets back to the beginning,..


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2765257
09/13/18 01:43 PM
09/13/18 01:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
J
jasminenv Offline OP
Junior Member
jasminenv  Offline OP
Junior Member
J

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Answering to question 1), you and the teacher should imho simply be more assertive in that matter. Don't let her play from the beginning, stop her immediately every time it happens and make her continue playing from the place of a mistake.


Thanks for the great feedback, I will make a note of that


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: keystring] #2765259
09/13/18 01:52 PM
09/13/18 01:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
J
jasminenv Offline OP
Junior Member
jasminenv  Offline OP
Junior Member
J

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
Originally Posted by keystring
Making some educated guesses on the first issue.
Originally Posted by jasminenv

My daughter could play a song well but if she forgets or gets stuck in middle of the song, she has the tendency to restart from the beginning. My questions are:

1) How should her teacher correct this issue?

The way lessons should happen, a student would be taught how to practice. This is a separate thing. What often does happen is that the teacher will work on the piece with the student during the lesson, assign which measures or whole pieces are to be practised, and maybe stress things like "remember that F#" or "remember to play the melody louder". That isn't teaching how to practice.

How to practice involves things like breaking the piece into smaller sections, which in the first year may be marked out by the teacher. There may also be an hierarchy of skills or tasks: first focus on correct notes on fingering, going as slow as you need: the next day focus (another thing), for each section. It's barely necessary at the lowest level, but it sets up habits that will be used as pieces get harder and more complicated.

So: If your daughter does this, and has been with the same teacher for four years, did she get taught how to practice? Since she would have been young when she got started, were you guided in how to guide her - like how she should be practising?


I don't think I was ever guided how to help her practice. But the way the teacher approaches lessons is similar to what you describe above


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765281
09/13/18 03:36 PM
09/13/18 03:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by jasminenv
Thanks for the feedback. She is playing classical music

More specifically, what level? Or, if you don't do levels, what specific pieces is she working on? Titles? Book names?

A lot of these problems arise because the student has had a poor foundation and the teacher tried to push the student ahead too quickly. In fact, I'd say 80% of the time that is the case. This is especially true if the student has made zero connection between theory and repertoire. That's an alarm blaring in my mind, unless the student is still mired in method books.

I interviewed several students this past month, and I can safely say that most teachers (at least those around me) are indeed trying to push the students ahead too quickly. And that includes students who are still in Level 2B of the method books. Although I also start to discern that parental involvement plays a role--the more clueless the parents are, the less likely the student will be successful.

Many parents are stuck in this school grade level mentality, that each student MUST progress one level per year. That's totally not the case. Some students can progress four levels a year. Some students need four years to progress one level. Many teachers, unfortunately, are also stuck in this "one level per year" mentality, and they force kids through levels when the kids are obviously not ready to move on.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: AZNpiano] #2765361
09/13/18 10:45 PM
09/13/18 10:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
J
jasminenv Offline OP
Junior Member
jasminenv  Offline OP
Junior Member
J

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
She is at early intermediate level, playing pieces like “Minuet in G (Bach)”, “Fur Elise”


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765372
09/14/18 01:37 AM
09/14/18 01:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by jasminenv
She is at early intermediate level, playing pieces like “Minuet in G (Bach)”, “Fur Elise”

That's not very much information, but to put it mildly--on what planet would you be teaching these two pieces to a student at the same time? They are like 2 years apart in terms of difficulty.

This sounds like a big mess. Good luck sorting it out.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765401
09/14/18 07:02 AM
09/14/18 07:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
T
tillyfloss Offline
Junior Member
tillyfloss  Offline
Junior Member
T

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
It could be the simplified version of Fur Elise of course. The Minuet in G after 4 years is not rapid progress but not unheard of if she started young.

Does her theory work coincide with her playing level and relate to the work she is doing at the keyboard ?

Also, please bear in mind that memorising and remembering a piece are different. It sounds to me as though she is trying to 'remember' because she isn't confident enough reading. The teacher's comment that she isn't making the connection between the theory and practice would then make a lot of sense.

I have found that those who watch their hands and try to 'remember' their pieces before they've actually learned them properly from the score, are moving too fast for their reading level- although their technique may be more advanced.

Again age and maturity play a big factor.

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765411
09/14/18 08:05 AM
09/14/18 08:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,112
Virginia, USA
T
TimR Offline
4000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,112
Virginia, USA
If she's practicing by playing a piece from beginning to end, that's a fail. Of course she would go back to the beginning, but that's a symptom of a wrong approach to practicing.

That might be because the teacher never taught how to practice, or because the student simply won't do it the way she's been told. I know my own daughter didn't practice efficiently. She knew at least a little bit of how, but chose not to (and her teacher didn't spend any time on it either). (When I noticed, I brought her that article with the polishing the window analogy, and her comment was, "that's just not me.")

If she's playing from memory, gets stuck, and goes back to the beginning, that is a different problem.

Either way it would seem to me she's likely reinforcing a habit of "stuttering," and that can be difficult to impossible to break.


gotta go practice
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765421
09/14/18 09:06 AM
09/14/18 09:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
T
tillyfloss Offline
Junior Member
tillyfloss  Offline
Junior Member
T

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
As an afterthought...

Why don't you ask if you can sit on the lessons for a little while? It will help you to understand why some things aren't tying up fully for your child.

Ask what it is you can do to help her make the necessary links.

And yes - that 'stuttering' (good description!) can take such a long time to get rid of and needs to be attacked on several fronts.

Good luck. Music is a long game and sticking with it takes a huge effort from everyone involved: Parents teachers and students. On those occasions when everything and everyone gels, it's great!

Last edited by tillyfloss; 09/14/18 09:06 AM.
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765432
09/14/18 09:40 AM
09/14/18 09:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
Originally Posted by jasminenv
I don't think I was ever guided how to help her practice. But the way the teacher approaches lessons is similar to what you describe above

If by the way the teacher approaches lessons, you mean that she introduces sections of music, and then works with your child on those sections, highlighting this or that - then this is how the teacher organizes how she teaches. Teaching a student how to practice is something different. For small children (say age 6, when your child probably started (?) ), the parent has to be guided on how to guide. I suspect that this teacher did not guide how to practice. Therefore now there is a hole.

I am an adult student but also former teacher, and I have also looked extensively into the pedagogy side when I got taught, because of my first experience in lessons. The process for practising that I know goes roughly like this:

- The piece is divided into manageable sections. If I'm a beginner, esp. young and beginner, my teacher will do that for me. I'll actually mark that into the score. (Real musicians have marked up scores wink ).
- practising happens over 1 week, or 2 or 3 weeks on a piece. So what am I doing over time? The first task may be to get the right notes with good fingering. Teacher should be observing in the lesson whether any fingering that might have been put in the score by editors is good for this student, with these hands. I might practice some of the sections the first day just for right notes, good fingering, loose comfortable hands. If it's a small piece -- or if the teacher has assigned a section of it - then that. I may add other things like dynamics, articulation, a bit later. I might speed it up over time. What you do day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4 may change.

A note here about how practising works. If you practise well and effectively, such as working on the right fingering and right notes, focusing on them, then your brain and nervous system will gradually start to "own" this. It happens by practising consistently each day, over shorter periods. It then comes together almost like magic. If you try to bulldoze your way in through willpower and cramming, that is not how our brain and nervous system works.

- ok, that was over a week or weeks. On a particular day, in a practice session, I'd work on my section, and on the thing I'm focusing on (such as fingering, or dynamics, or some problem or weak spot). I might spend 15 minutes on this thing, 10 minutes on another, 15 on another. I might visit the piano twice during the day for shorter periods, rather than bashing through the piece in one long sitting. I let go of it after practising, in the trust that tomorrow, more of it will be there for me.

-----------
These are some of the things I've learned to do, under teacher guidance. It won't work for you to try to introduce these things to your daughter because you're not her teacher, or a teacher, and it can go quite wrong, including conflict and tension between the two of you. The question is: IF this teacher has not guided your child in regard to how to practise, does she know how to do so? Not all teachers do. If she does, you might ask her to give that kind of guidance, and also tell you your own role, and see what happens. It probably won't be as elaborate as what I wrote out.

If the teacher can't guide (or hasn't been guiding, and can't guide), and if problems persist, you might want to look around. Beware of slick talkers. wink

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765440
09/14/18 10:19 AM
09/14/18 10:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
Music theory: Again writing primarily as an observing adult student who has also consulted teachers on this over the years:

I've observed in discussion forums where a now adult student studied tons of theory (often hating it), but there was no connection to music. I was lucky because as a child I self-taught, observed patterns which I played with and applied, and these turned out to be "theory" - like a preschooler uses syntax in an unaware way. When I did study my first theory, I related that to what I found in music. But also, I saw that I was starting to do a kind of "note geometry" and "note algebra" as I shoved black circles around on paper; it was starting to become abstract and disconnected to music. So as a student who is an adult, I started to look to connecting theory with music.

What I saw some teachers later do: They connected theory to music from the start. It doesn't have to come at the stage of "do grade 1 theory in a workbook when you're in grade 1". No: This new piece is in G major, with one sharp = F#, and the main chords in it will be G, D (the Tonic or I and the Dominant and V) and maybe C (IV) or Am (ii). They don't have to be named with those fancy names, but pointed out. Then later in during theory proper, "Remember when we did Piece with the G and D chords?). While working on the piece, knowing that the chords are G and D, and that the melody notes will mostly relate - that helps you learn the piece. Then a connection is established in the child's mind. If the teacher points out these things. Theory gives tools for making the music easier to learn.

Fuer Elise, which you mentioned, has a structure - musical form. If she is only learning the first easier portion, then there is a structure there. There are things that repeat, and if you know they repeat, then your work has suddenly been cut down. You can use a strategy. Again, theory gets applied to the music - it becomes a useful thing - and that forms a connection. If the child is shown the "musical form" in a simple way while working on a piece, then later when it comes up in theory, then it's "Hey, I know this already. This is easy!" Again, pointed out by the teacher. The student won't automatically think about it, just because it's obvious to a teacher or musician.

This is food for thought, in case any of may ring a bell, or otherwise. It's almost impossible to know what your child has been learning or experiencing over four years.

Communication with the teacher?

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: tillyfloss] #2765497
09/14/18 02:04 PM
09/14/18 02:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by tillyfloss
It could be the simplified version of Fur Elise of course. The Minuet in G after 4 years is not rapid progress but not unheard of if she started young.

Does her theory work coincide with her playing level and relate to the work she is doing at the keyboard ?

It's also my suspicion that Fur Elise is simplified. In that case, 4 years is a LONG time getting there. Very slow progress. I've only had a handful of students who were slower than that.

I also suspect that her theory work is not commensurate with her repertoire, hence the disconnect.

The OP seems unwilling to divulge any pertinent information. Just look at her terse responses vs. the long posts from other contributors. Really, we are all just guessing here based on limited information.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: AZNpiano] #2765513
09/14/18 03:31 PM
09/14/18 03:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
J
jasminenv Offline OP
Junior Member
jasminenv  Offline OP
Junior Member
J

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
Thanks everyone for replying to my post. I truly appreciate your feedback and advice! Since I was travelling for work, I did not get a chance to reply to all posts in a timely manner. So let's me try my answers here to those who responded with additional questions (in the order that I received)

1) From post AZNpiano: I honestly do not know exactly what level she is at other than what her teacher told me. Her teacher enrolled her in local contest and based on the registration, it looks like grade 4 material? Fur Elise (that she learned) is not a full version, she learned that last year. Her teacher also teaches her non-classical pieces. Some of the books that she learned are: John Thompson Grade 3, Piano literature Book 3, 4 , Suzuki book 3, 4... For her theory studying, she is taking test every year so this year will be grade 4. She also played some Beethoven's Sonatina as part of her studying. Her teacher did not want to teach her the full Fur Elise at the time. She never followed up to teach the "full version". Other teachers (who she studied with when we were being abroad for a month each year) mentioned that she could learn more advanced material but her teacher did not agree. They also asked why she did not learn the full Fur Elise (to which I had no answer)

2) From post Tillyfloss: I am not sure if the theory work closely coincide with her playing level, how do I check that?

3) TimR: When she practiced with her teacher, the teacher asked her to start from a middle of the song, she could do that. But when she practiced at home, she always tried to play from the beginning (which I did tell her not to that if I sat with her)

4): Keystring: I do not recall the teacher showing her how to practice at home, I will check with her teacher today and sit in one of the lessons to see how instructions are given. I agree that the theory must be connected to the music right at the start. Her teacher also insisted on her learning the theory but if she can not make the connection between the theory that she learned vs. the piece that she played, maybe there is problem with the teaching method? I don't know.


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765524
09/14/18 04:06 PM
09/14/18 04:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by jasminenv
I honestly do not know exactly what level she is at other than what her teacher told me. Her teacher enrolled her in local contest and based on the registration, it looks like grade 4 material? Fur Elise (that she learned) is not a full version, she learned that last year. Her teacher also teaches her non-classical pieces. Some of the books that she learned are: John Thompson Grade 3, Piano literature Book 3, 4 , Suzuki book 3, 4... For her theory studying, she is taking test every year so this year will be grade 4. She also played some Beethoven's Sonatina as part of her studying. Her teacher did not want to teach her the full Fur Elise at the time. She never followed up to teach the "full version". Other teachers (who she studied with when we were being abroad for a month each year) mentioned that she could learn more advanced material but her teacher did not agree. They also asked why she did not learn the full Fur Elise (to which I had no answer)

The additional information begins to paint a fuller picture. The teacher is probably right in saying your daughter is not ready to play the entire Fur Elise. The list of books sounds very common, if not a little outdated and old. The teacher is probably older and has been using those books forever. Suzuki Book 4 is the joke book among teachers in the know.

It is possible that your daughter can learn more difficult material, but in my experience whenever I get a student from another teacher, I almost always say to them they should be learning stuff that's much easier.

The truth might be that your daughter is just slower than her peers at learning piano, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I teach several 4th grade students, and their abilities are all over the map: two are doing level 6, one is struggling at level 3, and the other boy is so bad at piano I just sent him back down to Piano Adventures 2B to review. I'm not trapped by the "one level per year" model. Each student should be allowed to grow and develop at his or her own pace.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765558
09/14/18 05:57 PM
09/14/18 05:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
J
jasminenv Offline OP
Junior Member
jasminenv  Offline OP
Junior Member
J

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14
texas
To AZNpiano: What set of books would you recommend for today learning? And based on your reply, my understanding is that there might not be a problem at all and she will eventually get better (as it could be maturity issue like one of the posters said?) Thanks again


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765624
09/15/18 06:53 AM
09/15/18 06:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
T
tillyfloss Offline
Junior Member
tillyfloss  Offline
Junior Member
T

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
I think I'm starting to get a clearer idea of the situation.

Am I right in saying that your child is in 4th Grade at school and

is playing Grade 4 level material and

is doing Grade 4 level theory?

If that is the case then yes- as AZNpiano indicated - this is a case of one grade level per year of school, which in my experience is always an unsatisfactory approach and rarely works out well as there has been little if any time taken to put solid foundations in place.

This is often down to a combination of school politics/policy and parental pressure derived from a misunderstanding of what a musical education entails. This is not necessarily the way the teacher would prefer to go about things in private teaching situation. (Speaking from a UK perspective - where school peri teachers can be under great pressure to achieve this kind of result. It makes the school look good and if a child starts to struggle and eventually drops out or fails or 'loses interest' - which is the usual end result- then there is always another raft of school children coming through to fill places).


If this is the scenario then I would suggest that your child is doing well with the theory because she is simply tackling it as another academic exercise. Abstract and devoid of musical connection.

Fur Elise A section is manageable at a genuine Grade 4 level .(Although I like to leave it until they are more advanced and can tackle the whole piece in one go and with a greater degree of maturity). I would be in agreement with your child's teacher about her not being ready for the whole of this piece.

Perhaps then, the teacher has introduced Grade 1 level Minuet in G in an attempt to form connections between the theory and music and to put some more of those foundations in place. I do something similar with school transfer students who claim to be at such and such a Grade level and really are not.

Are you able to have a frank and clear conversation with your child's teacher about the best way forward? It sounds as though you are really try to work this out for the benefit of your child.

Those who take time in the beginning to get the foundations secure, go further in the long run. One grade a year is not an advisable approach.

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765626
09/15/18 07:22 AM
09/15/18 07:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 53
X
xSense Offline
Full Member
xSense  Offline
Full Member
X

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 53
For me the best way to memorize is music theory .

Speaking about ideas , themes , modulations , intervals is the only way to understand a piece.
Trying to memorize alot of music without any sense of direction is just gonna be forgotten.

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765644
09/15/18 09:53 AM
09/15/18 09:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by jasminenv
To AZNpiano: What set of books would you recommend for today learning? And based on your reply, my understanding is that there might not be a problem at all and she will eventually get better (as it could be maturity issue like one of the posters said?) Thanks again

The problem is not the set of books. You can give me all the Suzuki books in the world and I can still teach decently out of them. I'm not sure all piano teachers share that ability. Your daughter's problems go much further beyond repertoire.

I never said your problems will just go away eventually. It's a huge problem, one that will fester and get worse over time. I don't think any of us here can help you through the Internet. You might have to accept slow (or slower) progress. You might even consider sitting out exams for a year or two and really focus on getting your daughter up to speed in terms of playing ability. The "one level per year" mindset is very detrimental to students who are falling behind.

I used to teach in public schools. I get these 10th graders who are reading at 3rd grade level. These kids fall behind and NEVER catch up, and they eventually drop out of high school.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: AZNpiano] #2765648
09/15/18 10:07 AM
09/15/18 10:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,196
Canada
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
[ You might even consider sitting out exams for a year or two and really focus on getting your daughter up to speed in terms of playing ability.

I would agree with this. But there is one elephant in the room. Is the teacher on board with this? I don't think that a parent can try to patch together a remediation program to get this going. And if the teacher created the situation, does the teacher have the mindset to turn around the situation? When you get transfer students who have huge holes in their learning, and you have to work very hard to try to turn this around with the collaboration of the student ..... would another option be for the student and parent to try to turn that around themselves? Using what knowledge?

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: keystring] #2765650
09/15/18 10:18 AM
09/15/18 10:18 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,758
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by keystring
I would agree with this. But there is one elephant in the room. Is the teacher on board with this? I don't think that a parent can try to patch together a remediation program to get this going. And if the teacher created the situation, does the teacher have the mindset to turn around the situation? When you get transfer students who have huge holes in their learning, and you have to work very hard to try to turn this around with the collaboration of the student ..... would another option be for the student and parent to try to turn that around themselves? Using what knowledge?

That's a fair question. In my case, I always tell the parents to avoid exams unless the kids really want to do them. I would also sign kids up for exams if the process helps them.

However, in my experience, it's almost always the parents that created this exam problem. They want their kids to measure up to the other kids who are doing the "one level per year" model. Many parents are unwilling to accept the fact their kids are below average.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: AZNpiano] #2765656
09/15/18 10:50 AM
09/15/18 10:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
T
tillyfloss Offline
Junior Member
tillyfloss  Offline
Junior Member
T

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
[quote=AZNpiano][
That's a fair question. In my case, I always tell the parents to avoid exams unless the kids really want to do them.


I go even further now and tell parents not just to avoid exams but that I won't do them unless I think it beneficial - so if that's what they want then I am not the teacher for them. However I'm in the privileged position of teaching privately in an area with no shortage of children waiting to be signed up for lessons. I can choose not to teach in a school setting where I am well aware of the pressure I would be under to do the one a year model.

The Minuet In G scenario makes me think this teacher may well be trying to fill the gaps.


Last edited by tillyfloss; 09/15/18 10:55 AM.
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765685
09/15/18 02:18 PM
09/15/18 02:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 58
V
ViennaAutumn Offline
Full Member
ViennaAutumn  Offline
Full Member
V

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 58
I'd just like to point out that there's more than one popular "Minuet in G" from the AMN, and one of them seems to be at RCM grade 4. Are you guys perhaps thinking of the easier one?

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

(ad)
Sweetwater - Keyboards
Sweetwater
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Of speakers and watts
by mydp. 11/13/18 05:35 PM
altered chords and chord progressions
by Jitin. 11/13/18 12:26 PM
Ornette Coleman's "Lonely Woman"
by KenBakerMN. 11/13/18 08:54 AM
Crackling noise when recording digital piano
by Tommm777. 11/13/18 01:01 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Petrof
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics188,318
Posts2,760,828
Members91,484
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Please Support Our Advertisers
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

PianoTeq Petrof
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2