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My kid does not memorize the song #2765097
09/12/18 10:37 PM
09/12/18 10:37 PM
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jasminenv Offline OP
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Hello everyone,

My daughter could play a song well but if she forgets or gets stuck in middle of the song, she has the tendency to restart from the beginning. My questions are:

1) How should her teacher correct this issue?
2) She does the theory test well every year (she is in fourth grade currently and has been studying piano for 4 years with same teacher) but it seems that she does not make the connection between the theory and practice, even her teacher said that. Is there something wrong with the way her teacher trains her?
3) she seems to lose interest with this teacher. Is it about time I explore other options (meaning switching teacher?)

Thanks for your feedback


jasmine
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Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765112
09/13/18 01:35 AM
09/13/18 01:35 AM
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It's hard to say. What kind of music is she playing right now?


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Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765145
09/13/18 07:31 AM
09/13/18 07:31 AM
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1) How should her teacher correct this issue?
Regarding restarting from the beginning, yes a teacher should IMHO explain how to study effectively. However effective learning seems usually not to be teached, neither in normal school nor in music school...

>2) She does the theory test well every year (she is in fourth grade currently and has been studying piano for 4 years with same teacher) but it seems that she does not make the connection between the theory and practice, even her teacher said that. Is there something wrong with the way her teacher trains her?

There are different phases in making music : analyzing the piece, interpreting, determining fingerings, playing, Also you can do sight reading, play from memory, etc.
There are different types of theory, that are not equally suited for these different phases.

it is not clear what combination of phase and theory you are actually talking about.
I understand she can do analysis but does the teacher ask her to analyze the pieces that she actually plays?


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Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765180
09/13/18 11:38 AM
09/13/18 11:38 AM
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Are we talking about 2 different issues?

1. That having memorised a piece she cannot pick up again from where she stumbles

or
2. That she isn't reading very well i.e. applying the theory, and so is trying to memorise instead of reading?

Both would need different approaches to resolve.

If it's just a case of constantly going back to the beginning when things go wrong, that can sometimes simply be a case of immaturity. The number of times I've had to explain to students that they need to resolve the issue and then build it back into the piece, could fill a library. The message tends to get through when they are ready to listen and put it into practice - as they mature. 4th Grade? Does that make her about 9? (I'm in a different country).

Not making the connection between theory and practice is common if the theory is seen as something completely separate from creating sound. I've just inherited a youngster who apparently has completed Grade 2 theory but has no idea what a treble clef signifies and can no longer write one - because that was something she did at the beginning and has since moved on from.

Part of teaching I think, requires a constant flagging up of those connections using one method or another until it begins to dawn on them. However even that is likely to be unsuccessful until they make the effort to take it on board themselves.

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765182
09/13/18 11:43 AM
09/13/18 11:43 AM
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Making some educated guesses on the first issue.
Originally Posted by jasminenv

My daughter could play a song well but if she forgets or gets stuck in middle of the song, she has the tendency to restart from the beginning. My questions are:

1) How should her teacher correct this issue?

The way lessons should happen, a student would be taught how to practice. This is a separate thing. What often does happen is that the teacher will work on the piece with the student during the lesson, assign which measures or whole pieces are to be practised, and maybe stress things like "remember that F#" or "remember to play the melody louder". That isn't teaching how to practice.

How to practice involves things like breaking the piece into smaller sections, which in the first year may be marked out by the teacher. There may also be an hierarchy of skills or tasks: first focus on correct notes on fingering, going as slow as you need: the next day focus (another thing), for each section. It's barely necessary at the lowest level, but it sets up habits that will be used as pieces get harder and more complicated.

So: If your daughter does this, and has been with the same teacher for four years, did she get taught how to practice? Since she would have been young when she got started, were you guided in how to guide her - like how she should be practising?

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765225
09/13/18 01:22 PM
09/13/18 01:22 PM
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Answering to question 1), you and the teacher should imho simply be more assertive in that matter. Don't let her play from the beginning, stop her immediately every time it happens and make her continue playing from the place of a mistake.

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: AZNpiano] #2765244
09/13/18 02:08 PM
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jasminenv Offline OP
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Thanks for the feedback. She is playing classical music


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765246
09/13/18 02:16 PM
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jasminenv Offline OP
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I don't think her teacher asked her to analyze the piece, I could be wrong, but I have not seen her doing that...


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: tillyfloss] #2765249
09/13/18 02:23 PM
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jasminenv Offline OP
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Originally Posted by tillyfloss

Are we talking about 2 different issues?

1. That having memorised a piece she cannot pick up again from where she stumbles

or
2. That she isn't reading very well i.e. applying the theory, and so is trying to memorise instead of reading?

Both would need different approaches to resolve.



If it's just a case of constantly going back to the beginning when things go wrong, that can sometimes simply be a case of immaturity. The number of times I've had to explain to students that they need to resolve the issue and then build it back into the piece, could fill a library. The message tends to get through when they are ready to listen and put it into practice - as they mature. 4th Grade? Does that make her about 9? (I'm in a different country).

Not making the connection between theory and practice is common if the theory is seen as something completely separate from creating sound. I've just inherited a youngster who apparently has completed Grade 2 theory but has no idea what a treble clef signifies and can no longer write one - because that was something she did at the beginning and has since moved on from.

Part of teaching I think, requires a constant flagging up of those connections using one method or another until it begins to dawn on them. However even that is likely to be unsuccessful until they make the effort to take it on board themselves.



She can read well but often gets back to the beginning,..


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2765257
09/13/18 02:43 PM
09/13/18 02:43 PM
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jasminenv Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Answering to question 1), you and the teacher should imho simply be more assertive in that matter. Don't let her play from the beginning, stop her immediately every time it happens and make her continue playing from the place of a mistake.


Thanks for the great feedback, I will make a note of that


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: keystring] #2765259
09/13/18 02:52 PM
09/13/18 02:52 PM
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jasminenv Offline OP
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Originally Posted by keystring
Making some educated guesses on the first issue.
Originally Posted by jasminenv

My daughter could play a song well but if she forgets or gets stuck in middle of the song, she has the tendency to restart from the beginning. My questions are:

1) How should her teacher correct this issue?

The way lessons should happen, a student would be taught how to practice. This is a separate thing. What often does happen is that the teacher will work on the piece with the student during the lesson, assign which measures or whole pieces are to be practised, and maybe stress things like "remember that F#" or "remember to play the melody louder". That isn't teaching how to practice.

How to practice involves things like breaking the piece into smaller sections, which in the first year may be marked out by the teacher. There may also be an hierarchy of skills or tasks: first focus on correct notes on fingering, going as slow as you need: the next day focus (another thing), for each section. It's barely necessary at the lowest level, but it sets up habits that will be used as pieces get harder and more complicated.

So: If your daughter does this, and has been with the same teacher for four years, did she get taught how to practice? Since she would have been young when she got started, were you guided in how to guide her - like how she should be practising?


I don't think I was ever guided how to help her practice. But the way the teacher approaches lessons is similar to what you describe above


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765281
09/13/18 04:36 PM
09/13/18 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jasminenv
Thanks for the feedback. She is playing classical music

More specifically, what level? Or, if you don't do levels, what specific pieces is she working on? Titles? Book names?

A lot of these problems arise because the student has had a poor foundation and the teacher tried to push the student ahead too quickly. In fact, I'd say 80% of the time that is the case. This is especially true if the student has made zero connection between theory and repertoire. That's an alarm blaring in my mind, unless the student is still mired in method books.

I interviewed several students this past month, and I can safely say that most teachers (at least those around me) are indeed trying to push the students ahead too quickly. And that includes students who are still in Level 2B of the method books. Although I also start to discern that parental involvement plays a role--the more clueless the parents are, the less likely the student will be successful.

Many parents are stuck in this school grade level mentality, that each student MUST progress one level per year. That's totally not the case. Some students can progress four levels a year. Some students need four years to progress one level. Many teachers, unfortunately, are also stuck in this "one level per year" mentality, and they force kids through levels when the kids are obviously not ready to move on.


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Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: AZNpiano] #2765361
09/13/18 11:45 PM
09/13/18 11:45 PM
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jasminenv Offline OP
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She is at early intermediate level, playing pieces like “Minuet in G (Bach)”, “Fur Elise”


jasmine
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765372
09/14/18 02:37 AM
09/14/18 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jasminenv
She is at early intermediate level, playing pieces like “Minuet in G (Bach)”, “Fur Elise”

That's not very much information, but to put it mildly--on what planet would you be teaching these two pieces to a student at the same time? They are like 2 years apart in terms of difficulty.

This sounds like a big mess. Good luck sorting it out.


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Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765401
09/14/18 08:02 AM
09/14/18 08:02 AM
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It could be the simplified version of Fur Elise of course. The Minuet in G after 4 years is not rapid progress but not unheard of if she started young.

Does her theory work coincide with her playing level and relate to the work she is doing at the keyboard ?

Also, please bear in mind that memorising and remembering a piece are different. It sounds to me as though she is trying to 'remember' because she isn't confident enough reading. The teacher's comment that she isn't making the connection between the theory and practice would then make a lot of sense.

I have found that those who watch their hands and try to 'remember' their pieces before they've actually learned them properly from the score, are moving too fast for their reading level- although their technique may be more advanced.

Again age and maturity play a big factor.

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765411
09/14/18 09:05 AM
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If she's practicing by playing a piece from beginning to end, that's a fail. Of course she would go back to the beginning, but that's a symptom of a wrong approach to practicing.

That might be because the teacher never taught how to practice, or because the student simply won't do it the way she's been told. I know my own daughter didn't practice efficiently. She knew at least a little bit of how, but chose not to (and her teacher didn't spend any time on it either). (When I noticed, I brought her that article with the polishing the window analogy, and her comment was, "that's just not me.")

If she's playing from memory, gets stuck, and goes back to the beginning, that is a different problem.

Either way it would seem to me she's likely reinforcing a habit of "stuttering," and that can be difficult to impossible to break.


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Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765421
09/14/18 10:06 AM
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As an afterthought...

Why don't you ask if you can sit on the lessons for a little while? It will help you to understand why some things aren't tying up fully for your child.

Ask what it is you can do to help her make the necessary links.

And yes - that 'stuttering' (good description!) can take such a long time to get rid of and needs to be attacked on several fronts.

Good luck. Music is a long game and sticking with it takes a huge effort from everyone involved: Parents teachers and students. On those occasions when everything and everyone gels, it's great!

Last edited by tillyfloss; 09/14/18 10:06 AM.
Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765432
09/14/18 10:40 AM
09/14/18 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jasminenv
I don't think I was ever guided how to help her practice. But the way the teacher approaches lessons is similar to what you describe above

If by the way the teacher approaches lessons, you mean that she introduces sections of music, and then works with your child on those sections, highlighting this or that - then this is how the teacher organizes how she teaches. Teaching a student how to practice is something different. For small children (say age 6, when your child probably started (?) ), the parent has to be guided on how to guide. I suspect that this teacher did not guide how to practice. Therefore now there is a hole.

I am an adult student but also former teacher, and I have also looked extensively into the pedagogy side when I got taught, because of my first experience in lessons. The process for practising that I know goes roughly like this:

- The piece is divided into manageable sections. If I'm a beginner, esp. young and beginner, my teacher will do that for me. I'll actually mark that into the score. (Real musicians have marked up scores wink ).
- practising happens over 1 week, or 2 or 3 weeks on a piece. So what am I doing over time? The first task may be to get the right notes with good fingering. Teacher should be observing in the lesson whether any fingering that might have been put in the score by editors is good for this student, with these hands. I might practice some of the sections the first day just for right notes, good fingering, loose comfortable hands. If it's a small piece -- or if the teacher has assigned a section of it - then that. I may add other things like dynamics, articulation, a bit later. I might speed it up over time. What you do day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4 may change.

A note here about how practising works. If you practise well and effectively, such as working on the right fingering and right notes, focusing on them, then your brain and nervous system will gradually start to "own" this. It happens by practising consistently each day, over shorter periods. It then comes together almost like magic. If you try to bulldoze your way in through willpower and cramming, that is not how our brain and nervous system works.

- ok, that was over a week or weeks. On a particular day, in a practice session, I'd work on my section, and on the thing I'm focusing on (such as fingering, or dynamics, or some problem or weak spot). I might spend 15 minutes on this thing, 10 minutes on another, 15 on another. I might visit the piano twice during the day for shorter periods, rather than bashing through the piece in one long sitting. I let go of it after practising, in the trust that tomorrow, more of it will be there for me.

-----------
These are some of the things I've learned to do, under teacher guidance. It won't work for you to try to introduce these things to your daughter because you're not her teacher, or a teacher, and it can go quite wrong, including conflict and tension between the two of you. The question is: IF this teacher has not guided your child in regard to how to practise, does she know how to do so? Not all teachers do. If she does, you might ask her to give that kind of guidance, and also tell you your own role, and see what happens. It probably won't be as elaborate as what I wrote out.

If the teacher can't guide (or hasn't been guiding, and can't guide), and if problems persist, you might want to look around. Beware of slick talkers. wink

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: jasminenv] #2765440
09/14/18 11:19 AM
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Music theory: Again writing primarily as an observing adult student who has also consulted teachers on this over the years:

I've observed in discussion forums where a now adult student studied tons of theory (often hating it), but there was no connection to music. I was lucky because as a child I self-taught, observed patterns which I played with and applied, and these turned out to be "theory" - like a preschooler uses syntax in an unaware way. When I did study my first theory, I related that to what I found in music. But also, I saw that I was starting to do a kind of "note geometry" and "note algebra" as I shoved black circles around on paper; it was starting to become abstract and disconnected to music. So as a student who is an adult, I started to look to connecting theory with music.

What I saw some teachers later do: They connected theory to music from the start. It doesn't have to come at the stage of "do grade 1 theory in a workbook when you're in grade 1". No: This new piece is in G major, with one sharp = F#, and the main chords in it will be G, D (the Tonic or I and the Dominant and V) and maybe C (IV) or Am (ii). They don't have to be named with those fancy names, but pointed out. Then later in during theory proper, "Remember when we did Piece with the G and D chords?). While working on the piece, knowing that the chords are G and D, and that the melody notes will mostly relate - that helps you learn the piece. Then a connection is established in the child's mind. If the teacher points out these things. Theory gives tools for making the music easier to learn.

Fuer Elise, which you mentioned, has a structure - musical form. If she is only learning the first easier portion, then there is a structure there. There are things that repeat, and if you know they repeat, then your work has suddenly been cut down. You can use a strategy. Again, theory gets applied to the music - it becomes a useful thing - and that forms a connection. If the child is shown the "musical form" in a simple way while working on a piece, then later when it comes up in theory, then it's "Hey, I know this already. This is easy!" Again, pointed out by the teacher. The student won't automatically think about it, just because it's obvious to a teacher or musician.

This is food for thought, in case any of may ring a bell, or otherwise. It's almost impossible to know what your child has been learning or experiencing over four years.

Communication with the teacher?

Re: My kid does not memorize the song [Re: tillyfloss] #2765497
09/14/18 03:04 PM
09/14/18 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tillyfloss
It could be the simplified version of Fur Elise of course. The Minuet in G after 4 years is not rapid progress but not unheard of if she started young.

Does her theory work coincide with her playing level and relate to the work she is doing at the keyboard ?

It's also my suspicion that Fur Elise is simplified. In that case, 4 years is a LONG time getting there. Very slow progress. I've only had a handful of students who were slower than that.

I also suspect that her theory work is not commensurate with her repertoire, hence the disconnect.

The OP seems unwilling to divulge any pertinent information. Just look at her terse responses vs. the long posts from other contributors. Really, we are all just guessing here based on limited information.


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