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Kawai CA78, dull notes? #2764595
09/10/18 06:58 PM
09/10/18 06:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 8
Australia
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Harmless Offline OP
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Hi,

Last week I bought a CA78, hoping I don't get the keytop scratches as discussed in another thread!

Does anyone with this piano notice some "dull" notes in the middle of the C4 octave? It doesn't apply to all instruments, but it's noticeable in Pianist mode and on some of the pianos in Sound mode. I'm using the word dull to mean reduced volume compared to neighbouring keys.

G#4 is the most noticeable dull note, but it also affects F/F#/G4. A4 is noticeably louder and brighter than G#4.

I've tried:
- Factory Reset: no change
- Set Touch Curve = Off (constant volume): G#4 sounds as loud and bright as its neighbours
- Set Key Volume of G#4 = +50 (maximum): G#4 sounds as loud and bright as its neighbours

I'm not a good pianist but I'm finding it hard to play nicely when there are uneven notes in the middle of the keyboard. Hopefully I won't need to fiddle with Key Volumes just to fix uneven keys.

Thanks,
David

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Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2764602
09/10/18 07:43 PM
09/10/18 07:43 PM
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arc7urus Offline
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I suggest you connect your ca78 to a midi event monitor, such as midi ox for the pc or midi wrench for ios. Check the note on and off velocityies of the g#4. Compare its velocity against the velocity of a cluster of neighboring keys pressed simultaneously. The velocity values should be pretty similar . If not you the dp may have a faulty sensor.

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2764656
09/11/18 04:29 AM
09/11/18 04:29 AM
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UK
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As suggested, use a midi monitor (there is also one for android called USB midi Monitor), if you do have that problem you will need to contact the shop/kawai to get the sensors changed out under warrenty.

Other things that can cause this are room acoustics (is this the same through headphones? or speakers only?) or your own ears.

For the former then you can try shifting the piano position a little or similarly with furnishings, not much can be done about the latter!

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Bambers] #2764671
09/11/18 07:21 AM
09/11/18 07:21 AM
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Posts: 8
Australia
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Harmless Offline OP
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Thanks for the suggestions. I used MIDI-OX and then Excel to summarise the results:

Code
	 #	ON	OFF
D4	 8	66	76
Eb4	13	72	87
E4	15	76	78
F4	15	61	80
F#4	25	61	68
G4	17	60	73
G#4	33	64	70
A4	19	81	71
Bb4	29	79	74
B4	13	78	73
C5	16	77	79
C#5	 4	76	71


The # column is the number of Note On/Off events, the last two columns are the average Velocity for Note On and Note Off.
I played the notes using a combination of chords and single key presses running up & down, trying as best I could to use the same force on each note. On the piano the Key Volume setting = Off.

The Note On averages do show a reduced velocity for the notes I'm perceiving as "dull", but I have no idea if the difference is significant.

To answer Bambers' question, it makes no difference if I use the speakers or headphones.

Thanks,
David

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Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2764684
09/11/18 08:06 AM
09/11/18 08:06 AM
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Nordomus Online content
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It looks ok to me. Can you record those differences? I mean sound.

Last edited by Nordomus; 09/11/18 08:06 AM.
Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2764689
09/11/18 08:19 AM
09/11/18 08:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,181
Germany
JoBert Offline
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Here's another experiment that you can do:

Transpose the whole keyboard (I think you need to do this in Sound Mode) by a whole octave.

Has the dull sound traveled with the notes and now appears with the keys one octave higher?
Or is the sound of those notes acceptable now, as they are now played by different keys? And if so: What about the notes one octave lower (i.e. the ones that are now played by the original keys in question) - do they sound duller now than they do when they are played with their "correct" keys?

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2764696
09/11/18 08:44 AM
09/11/18 08:44 AM
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Those MIDI-On velocities for F4 to G#4 seem significantly lower than A4 and following. Some could be the weighted graded action so maybe a sample of more keys would tease that out.

But I would just try JoBert's transposition test.

There is also the possibility that your technique is slightly uneven across the keyboard.

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2764746
09/11/18 12:49 PM
09/11/18 12:49 PM
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Posts: 452
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Originally Posted by Harmless

Does anyone with this piano notice some "dull" notes in the middle of the C4 octave?
G#4 is the most noticeable dull note, but it also affects F/F#/G4. A4 is noticeably louder and brighter than G#4.


Myself and others had a similar problem in the CA95 Series. Over the months, things got pretty bitter, as, Kawai US Service promised at first to resolve this, but it never happened. During my first call to them, they heard it. As did many others in my home. Many phone calls and many months went by. The Kawai Warranty? It did not matter. Nothing was done.

G4 was the primary issue for me. It had an awful twang to it.

Eventually, the Dealer, not Kawai, gave me a new CA95. It was better, but I eventually sold it. Fetched a used CA67 which is very pleasant to play and hear.

There were more than one thread on this. Here is the final post.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2388726/my-kawai-ca95-warranty-resolution.html

I tried everything. And in the end, I believe it was a faulty speaker amplifier circuit. And only a few of us had this problem.

Last edited by McBuster; 09/11/18 12:53 PM.

Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2764802
09/11/18 06:46 PM
09/11/18 06:46 PM
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Australia
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Harmless Offline OP
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Australia
Originally Posted by JoBert
Here's another experiment that you can do: Transpose the whole keyboard

I tried the transposing thing, the dull notes are always the same keys in the physical C4 octave.

There's no dullness to the keys in the physical C3 and C5 octaves, whether transposed or not. I even moved the stool left/right to make sure my arm & hand were in the same relative position when trying the other octaves.

I said in my original post that the dull note problem doesn't apply to all instruments, but now I'm thinking that it probably does. It's just less noticeable on some instruments like organs because of the nature of their tone.

Originally Posted by McBuster
Myself and others had a similar problem in the CA95 Series. Over the months, things got pretty bitter, as, Kawai US Service promised at first to resolve this, but it never happened.

This concerns me! The reason I started this thread was to determine if my piano is possibly defective (rather than user error) before asking Kawai Australia for warranty support. I hope I have a better experience, the CA78 was a financial stretch for me.

Thanks,
David

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2764858
09/12/18 01:26 AM
09/12/18 01:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,181
Germany
JoBert Offline
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Originally Posted by Harmless
Originally Posted by JoBert
Here's another experiment that you can do: Transpose the whole keyboard

I tried the transposing thing, the dull notes are always the same keys in the physical C4 octave.

For me that would be enough proof that there's something wrong with the sensors in that octave. I would now contact the vendor and/or Kawai support and take it from there.

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2764980
09/12/18 01:44 PM
09/12/18 01:44 PM
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Posts: 128
Germany
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danielp11 Offline
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You can adjust the volume and the brightness of each key in the VT.
Tolerance in the mechanics might result in slightly different midi values. This “problem” occurs often on kawai keyboards, but it is easy correctable with the VT.
Daniel

Last edited by danielp11; 09/12/18 01:47 PM.

KAWAI CS11 (sold KAWAI CA 97), KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand piano (sold SCHIMMEL acoustic upright)
Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: danielp11] #2765048
09/12/18 06:33 PM
09/12/18 06:33 PM
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Australia
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Harmless Offline OP
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Thanks for everyone's feedback and advice, I've requested assistance from Kawai.

Originally Posted by danielp11
Tolerance in the mechanics might result in slightly different midi values. This “problem” occurs often on kawai keyboards, but it is easy correctable with the VT.

I know what you mean but I take a slightly different view. Key Volume shouldn't need to be used to correct manufacturing anomalies to get the piano to an acceptable baseline. I see it as a "personalisation" setting that can be applied differently to various instruments according to the user's taste.

Note that:
- It's a tedious job adjusting multiple key volumes on multiple instruments, and will need to be repeated if ever a factory reset is done.
- Individual key adjustments will prevent me from using the Key Volume presets, eg, "High Damping".
- To make G#4 sound ok I'm applying the maximum Key Volume adjustment, so it's already borderline.

Thanks,
David

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2765118
09/13/18 03:17 AM
09/13/18 03:17 AM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by danielp11
Tolerance in the mechanics might result in slightly different midi values. This “problem” occurs often on kawai keyboards, but it is easy correctable with the VT.

Do you have any data to back this claim? Inconsistent velocity values are not to be corrected by the VT. At all. This is a brand new DP. So, either there was a production error that was not properly checked during QA or a post-production issue, likely during transportation. This is why the warranty and a good customer support are important factors.

Originally Posted by Harmless
Thanks for everyone's feedback and advice, I've requested assistance from Kawai.

Yes, that is the correct way to address the problem. Not with the VT. Given the MIDI note-on values you posted before and the fact that the behaviour remains after transposition, it all points out to a sensor-related issue. Another indicator is that the DP is reading lower velocities on a set of 4 contiguous keys. This also points to a sensor issue due to the way the sensors arrays are wired together.

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: arc7urus] #2765144
09/13/18 07:29 AM
09/13/18 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by danielp11
Tolerance in the mechanics might result in slightly different midi values. This “problem” occurs often on kawai keyboards, but it is easy correctable with the VT.

Do you have any data to back this claim? Inconsistent velocity values are not to be corrected by the VT. At all. This is a brand new DP. So, either there was a production error that was not properly checked during QA or a post-production issue, likely during transportation. This is why the warranty and a good customer support are important factors.


I owned a CA97 and I own a CS11. I tested the MIDI values on both. Additionally I played a different CS 11, a CA 67, a CA 97, a CA 78 and a CA 98 in store. All these instruments had litte deviations in volume (MIDI values) between the keys (different on each intrument). But it is very easy to adjust this in the VT (a little bit more effort if you use a lot of intruments (pianist mode is only "one" instrument).

Nevertheless I still think that the GF II keyboard is by far the best on the market (not counting "real" actions like on the NV10). I have tried a lot of different actions from different manufacturers. I also own a KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand with the "real" millenium III action, and I play a steinway grand from my teacher every week. Therefore my opinion has a least a little "background".


If you look at the very small gaps in the machanics between the switches i image it is VERY hard to build these gaps without tolerances.

Daniel



Last edited by danielp11; 09/13/18 07:30 AM.

KAWAI CS11 (sold KAWAI CA 97), KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand piano (sold SCHIMMEL acoustic upright)
Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2765151
09/13/18 08:55 AM
09/13/18 08:55 AM
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Posts: 95
INDIA
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Gandhi Offline
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Originally Posted by danielp11
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by danielp11
Tolerance in the mechanics might result in slightly different midi values. This “problem” occurs often on kawai keyboards, but it is easy correctable with the VT.

Do you have any data to back this claim? Inconsistent velocity values are not to be corrected by the VT. At all. This is a brand new DP. So, either there was a production error that was not properly checked during QA or a post-production issue, likely during transportation. This is why the warranty and a good customer support are important factors.


I owned a CA97 and I own a CS11. I tested the MIDI values on both. Additionally I played a different CS 11, a CA 67, a CA 97, a CA 78 and a CA 98 in store. All these instruments had litte deviations in volume (MIDI values) between the keys (different on each intrument). But it is very easy to adjust this in the VT (a little bit more effort if you use a lot of intruments (pianist mode is only "one" instrument).

Nevertheless I still think that the GF II keyboard is by far the best on the market (not counting "real" actions like on the NV10). I have tried a lot of different actions from different manufacturers. I also own a KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand with the "real" millenium III action, and I play a steinway grand from my teacher every week. Therefore my opinion has a least a little "background".


If you look at the very small gaps in the machanics between the switches i image it is VERY hard to build these gaps without tolerances.

Daniel




Thank you for sharing your experience..Very useful information.

I have already order CA 78..will get next week..

Gandhi

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: danielp11] #2765189
09/13/18 11:56 AM
09/13/18 11:56 AM
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Sydney, Australia
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Originally Posted by danielp11


I owned a CA97 and I own a CS11. I tested the MIDI values on both. Additionally I played a different CS 11, a CA 67, a CA 97, a CA 78 and a CA 98 in store. All these instruments had litte deviations in volume (MIDI values) between the keys (different on each intrument). But it is very easy to adjust this in the VT (a little bit more effort if you use a lot of intruments (pianist mode is only "one" instrument).

Nevertheless I still think that the GF II keyboard is by far the best on the market (not counting "real" actions like on the NV10). I have tried a lot of different actions from different manufacturers. I also own a KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand with the "real" millenium III action, and I play a steinway grand from my teacher every week. Therefore my opinion has a least a little "background".


If you look at the very small gaps in the machanics between the switches i image it is VERY hard to build these gaps without tolerances.

Daniel




That's very interesting information danielp11. Playing the CN37, CA78, and ES8 in store I do notice various dull notes as well as notes that "jump out" at you being louder than they should be. That said, I think it could simply be room/shop acoustics (as it was impossible to be able to measure MIDI values in store).

I do own an ES110, and now have a CA78 and I can confirm some values do deviate albeit slightly when measuring the MIDI values at home (a few weeks ago). I use a weighted cup or small bowl for 2 keys at a time, or coins taped together for single keys, and measured the MIDI values (to eliminate inconsistencies in human error). They have padding on the bottom so as not to damage the keys, and I release it on the keys at the same height. The deviations do not cause me too much concern at the moment, as I've had a tech come over under warranty twice (for other issues) and have not had the best experience. The CA78 itself though is a joy to play, and like OP, it was quite an investment for us.


Kawai CA78 | Kawai ES110 | Kawai Upright | Alexander Herrmann Upright (Sold) | Korg SP170 (Sold) | JBL LSR305 // Pianoteq Stage // CFX Lite
Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: danielp11] #2765982
09/17/18 03:51 AM
09/17/18 03:51 AM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by danielp11
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by danielp11
Tolerance in the mechanics might result in slightly different midi values. This “problem” occurs often on kawai keyboards, but it is easy correctable with the VT.

Do you have any data to back this claim? Inconsistent velocity values are not to be corrected by the VT. At all. This is a brand new DP. So, either there was a production error that was not properly checked during QA or a post-production issue, likely during transportation. This is why the warranty and a good customer support are important factors.


I owned a CA97 and I own a CS11. I tested the MIDI values on both. Additionally I played a different CS 11, a CA 67, a CA 97, a CA 78 and a CA 98 in store. All these instruments had litte deviations in volume (MIDI values) between the keys (different on each intrument). But it is very easy to adjust this in the VT (a little bit more effort if you use a lot of intruments (pianist mode is only "one" instrument).

Nevertheless I still think that the GF II keyboard is by far the best on the market (not counting "real" actions like on the NV10). I have tried a lot of different actions from different manufacturers. I also own a KAWAI GX2 acoustic grand with the "real" millenium III action, and I play a steinway grand from my teacher every week. Therefore my opinion has a least a little "background".

If you look at the very small gaps in the machanics between the switches i image it is VERY hard to build these gaps without tolerances


Hi Daniel! Many thanks for your input. I have definitely not tested as many CA/CS models as you had, but I have measured in some detail the note-on values on a CA98 and a CA67. Both displayed quite consistent MIDI note-on values. I used a hardcover book to press a group of around 9 contiguous keys each time and measured the note-on values with a MIDI event monitor. Then I moved the book to the next key and repeated the process. So, each key is tested multiple times. The results I got show a deviation between note-on values lower than 5 out 127 (that is ca. 4%). These values can be a result of the testing method itself, which is far from being reliable, and/or of the mechanical tolerance of the action that you mention.

Note that the OP says he is observing note-on deviations of 20 out of 127 (16% error) in a specific section of the keyboard.

I also want to emphasize that I am commenting just on the MIDI event note-on values. I am not commenting on the volume, tone or timbre of the sound produced by each key. Most DP on the market, including Kawai's, have slight variations in the sound they produce across the keyboard. This is may be due to the tuning of original acoustic piano, the sampling process, sound engine and other factors. So, I do use the VT to make some small corrections to the sound of some keys. But that is to adjust the sound, not to correct deviations of the MIDI velocity events.

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2773480
10/18/18 12:40 AM
10/18/18 12:40 AM
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Harmless Offline OP
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OP here: My CA78 has had surgery and is now much improved, so I'd like to publicly thank those involved...

A big thanks to Kawai Australia who responded promptly and professionally. And a special thanks to Stan the field technician who spent a couple of hours working on the piano at my home. He's actually very quick with the fixes, but we spent a considerable amount of time looking at velocities in MIDI-OX and trying various things. Replacing the sensor pad seemed to make the biggest difference.

When I initially contacted Kawai they were already aware of this thread, and had concluded that the most likely culprit was a sensor pad. So thanks to the folks that contributed to the thread, in particular those who suggested the diagnostic tests.

Re: Kawai CA78, dull notes? [Re: Harmless] #2828878
03/20/19 12:50 AM
03/20/19 12:50 AM
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Same problem as reported by OP. Also Ca78. Same happy ending; contacted KAWAI Australia and the Product Mgr organised a under-warranty visit by their Tech guy. After some magic, and new switch boards all the sounds are perfect even across the keyboard. I add my big thanks to Kawai Australia for their professional and customer-centric approach.


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