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You’re very sensitive about your Hamburg Steinway.

There's no reason to assume it's only America. I would guess that all the premium brands from Europe are re-pinning as a matter of course. It's a small expense when taken in context of the price of the instrument. Mid-tier brands are probably not doing it, but servicing them as needs arise.

Hi William,

We prepare any action in the best possible way before we install it. This means different things for different manufacturers, of course.

I do disagree about Renner making good on issues. Remember about 15 - 20 years ago when there was a bad batch of glue being used on hammers? At the time we were choosing Renner blues often. (This was before they got so hard).

Anyway, we got easily 10 sets of replacement hammers. We also got a set or two of complimentary parts to make up for our labor expenses. I was happy with that. That was much more than another unnamed company did to help out with their obvious design flaws.

My 2 cents,

There is an '84 Hamburg C down at Kim's in OC.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hamburg-Steinway-Model-C-Grand-Piano-/222617576396

Might have to make the trek and hear what all the fuss is about.

Hi Rich:

It has long been my practice to lay out my shanks and whips and check the resistance of each center with a gram guage. If there are only a few, I go ahead and repin as needed. if there are large scale problems, then I return the set to the supplier and have the order refilled or order from another maker. This I do before I mount them on the rails.

Renners typically would come in on the low side for friction but be very consistent. The problems would develop after delivery and after several years of use. Both excessive friction and walking pins were the result. When we go back on our own work and correct the issues that have developed, nobody pays us for our lost time.

You and I have been in the business for a long time. We have experienced that our action parts suppliers can be great for a very long time, then for whatever reasons, issues become apparent. Some of our readers think I am dropping bombs on Renner/german Steinways, but the reality is that all of our suppliers have their good years and bad years.

As for the hammers, I experienced none of the glue issues you did, although I was using the Renner Blues almost exclusively at that time. I did stop using them because of the amount of work required to get them to where they needed to be because they were so hard. That said, the sound was quite beautiful once you got there. Sorry to hear you had those problems.

Thank you for your comments.

Will

I would like to correct this statement. Steinway pianos do not have a Renner Action. Steinway company contracts with Renner company to manufacture their action parts.

This is a very different thing, as the Steinway action design is very different from the Renner action design.

I think you have to correct ALL the comments above, because they just talk about Renner action, not Hamburg Steinways' action made by Renner

I understand what you're saying, but isn't that just a technicality in the terminology used to refer to the Renner actions in Steinway pianos? It seems like we're trying to shift the blame for the pinning issue from Renner to Steinway, which may well be the case if Steinway is dictating the wrong size pin. But bottom line is, if there are pinning problems with Renner actions parts installed in Steinway pianos (or any other brand for that matter) there are issues that should be considered. I trust the knowledge and experience of the technicians who have commented on that issue.

I have a WNG action in my Steinway B. It's a WNG action, but it's modeled after the NY Steinway actions for the specific models. My rebuilder verified to me that the information I had read here on PW about pinning issues with the WNG composite actions was true early on and that he often chose to repin them. He said that WNG was responsive to feedback from the field and made the necessary adjustments, so re-pinning is no longer required.

Maybe it's a little different with Hamburg Steinway, but wouldn't Renner have to have specific action designs for every make and model of piano they build for be it Bosendorfer, Baldwin, Bechstein, etc? How is the relationship with Steinway different? I thought the NY and Hamburg actions were complete different designs. Am I wrong about that?

Not really. In addition to the NY factory pianos (new and old) that she sells and maintains for pianists, institutions, and other clients, Sally Phillips regularly services recently-made Hamburg Steinway D's in concert halls and client homes throughout the southeastern US. Have been there when she's done it on more than one occasion...

I'd be willing to wager that she's forgotten more than you know about the matter.

Renner will build a custom stack for any piano you want to rebuild. To do that, they have to know where the capstans are and where the strings are (and where to strike them). With that, they can tweak a standard design of theirs to fit. Likely this is a CAD/CAM process. The high volume OEM work is likely subject to a lot more input from the customer.

Don't bother. The C is actually a B that wants to be a D - and doesn't do justice to any end of the scale.

Although it might be interesting for you to compare the C action to the one of your NY D, but that largely depends on how it's been regulated and may not represent the best a Hamburg action can give you.

The design of the action parts made by Renner for the Hamburg actions is virtually identical except for the graphite surface on the top of the repetition lever as opposed to the emeralon surface of NY parts. The angle of the wippen cushion is slightly different. But aside from that the parts are identical in dimension. The other difference currently is that the NY keys and frame use the 1/2 round bearing point and the Hamburg keys are set on a cloth punching. Both the New York and Hamburg key sets are made by Kluge which is wholly owned by Steinway. So the prime difference in the actions are in the keyset and frame which are not made by Renner.

Not quite. The Hamburg factory opened in 1880, but in the first years it was just an assembly plant for pianos shipped from Queens.

However, even the earlier models have already had action compatibility to today's Renner action in central parts such as the repetition levers. It's therefore pretty safe to say that Steinway played a major role in 'inspiring' Renner to produce actions that were compatible with then and future pianos from Hamburg. It's always been a close collaboration.

So? Any wrong with it?

It’s only wrong when you are derisive to other pianos

Not to Faziolis, Bösendorfers or Steingraebers... pianos for sure.

I have only ever played on one Hamburg C, new, very recently (one month ago) at Steinway Hall New York. I probably heard performances on a few more in the past. But that one C was one of the best pianos I've ever played.

In fact, not trying to stir up a fire about brand comparison again, on that same day 20 minutes later I was at Faust Harrison, and played their Fazioli F228. In my 100% subjective view, and by no means I dislike the F228, but that specific C beats that specific F228.

I have a really nice C that I love. And I played that C in Steinway Hall in NY a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was fantastic.

Just to compare, if you have good headphones or speakers, here is a Hamburg D that i just rebuilt this summer on it's first week back in service. The last piece, the Brahms clarinet sonata probably shows it off the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j5SYLLiXdg

Attention! You should be very sensitive about Hamburg Steinway, too!

Listening over Neumann KH120s and Senn HD650s with a Benchmark DAC3, the piano sounds excellent ! Congrats on such a fine job and thanks for posting.

Was it a complete rebuild - new soundboard, etc. ? What year is it ?

I haven't braved the traffic to go down to Kim's yet but I did speak with another Pro player down in OC, whose opinion I respect, who had been in to play the '84 Hamburg C. He didn't care for it. Thought it was too bright and the action was stiff he said. He liked the Yamaha CX7 much better he said he tried at another store. Fwiw, he's a Jazz guy like me.

Certainly not fair to compare a 34 year old piano that might highly benefit from a complete major regulation and extensive voicing with a brand new piano. But just thought I'd pass that on.

Like I posted in another thread I only had one experience with a re-built C and it was not a piano I would care to own. I'd have no doubt the new ones, like the one at Steinway Hall, are quite incredible.

Pierre has an early 2000 something Fazioli 228 at his store that I need to get over there and play.