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kinya88 #2762778 09/02/18 01:54 PM
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Couldn't edit the post but wanted to add this:

In part I feel I have been rewarded not too faff around with velocity curves too much over the years, and get into the habit of adapting to the action and the instrument response , and not first thing, make the velocity curve do what I think it should do because of a familiar feeling. After all, this is the only thing you can do on an acoustic The only thing I might do sometimes is set the max velocity a bit lower since both the kawai an Casio don't reach velocity 127 with the stock curve (or the min value), other than that they are straight lines.


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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Originally Posted by SLQ

Originally Posted by peterws
I have tried many times to like that GF2 action. You earthlings have strange tastes . . . .


Within the span of 18 months I made 4 special and dedicated visits for the express purpose of trying the Kawai CA67/97 and then later the CA 68/98 models. I have never liked the Grand Feel II action. Perhaps later on I might.


Peter that's instersting since (IIRC) you said you liked the grand feel compact just fine. As far as I am aware the only difference is the extra long keys (Pivot) and lack of counterweights (only in the bass keys ) Now, for me the two actually do feel quite different, the counterweights really affect the response and feel ( for me), just as was the case when I played the 685 and 575 and more recently the 685 and 675.

As for GF2, it was never love at first sight for me coming from no acoustic background at all and my first piano was the Casio AP450, but I kept chipping away at it and coming back every few months, starting back in the day the CA67 was in store. My very first touch of it was I did not like it all, and the yamaha NWX I got on really well with straight out of the box, even better than my Casio I was used to. I think the sound engine connection I felt also had some bearing on this, for me the kawai CA67 I tried at first just responded really weirdly and in a jumpy fashion in stock setting, and I didn't like the timbre ) but then you adapt quickly to the touch.

I now have the CA78 9 weeks and it feels more or less second nature. Interestingly I can still go back to my Casio ap450 tri sensor action, and if I have not touched it for a few days you dial in within a few minutes, it is a much lighter action, in the sense the key mechanism has very little inertia compared to that of the kawai where you have to work somewhat harder.

You may wonder, why then did I buy the kawai, mainly the crossover to acoustics I have had access to, I did find the cross over to work very well and the aim is to have a grand, however, I now realise that actually swapping between the two digitals is not posing to be problematic in the way I suspected it might. CA78 also works excellently with my Fav VSTs too ( when I don't get problems but that another story slowly being solved unique to my setup).

I still think it is one of the best, if not the best in that price range in emulating a grand action, not quite the same as real grands, but they can be all different anyway, but close in a way that the crossover is fairly transparent, and the way the action is weighted and responds in feel GF2 does it very well.


I sometimes scratch my head when thinking out this stuff, ha ha! Now, a grand piano can have enormously long keys, most of which are behind the pivot point. The inertia must be so high; it well may help with precision regarding playing, but the reason for those long keys was not that.
It was to strike the long strings in the right place; baby grands of course, have less length in their keys.
The inertia from GF, or any other digital piano, will come from it's hammer effect mechanism, whatever that may entail.
Too, the mechanism in acoustics is coming under scrutiny, with new materials being brought into play to reduce this or improve that.
So one might assume that, any time not soon, the acoustic piano will have discarded tradition, utilising carbon fibre technology and other stuff; anything, instead of wood. They've already ditched ivory, of course . . . .
I'm not really convinced that wooden keys, or part wooden keys as on the Roland and maybe the Yamaha, feel different because of the material used. A different load distribution with plastic keys would maybe achieve the same result.

Last edited by peterws; 09/02/18 06:05 PM.

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peterws #2762891 09/02/18 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws

I'm not really convinced that wooden keys, or part wooden keys as on the Roland and maybe the Yamaha, feel different because of the material used. A different load distribution with plastic keys would maybe achieve the same result.


Definitely I agree on that one, what I said above is not because kawai just have keys made out of wood, but the balancing of the hammer with the keys and counterweights, length of key etc. all play a factor to make it as authentic feeling as possible, and IMO kawai got this pretty well on the ball ( it seems to me ) upweight downweight static resistance versus dynamic weight, all that stuff. I can't think of a plastic actions that comes as close to that to date I have tried. Roland with PHA-50 comes pretty close, feels very nimble too, more so than GF2 ( seems to me).


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Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
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kinya88 #2762915 09/02/18 09:15 PM
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It's difficult to discuss actions, because everyone has their own preferences. I really think that all top line DPs keyboards are very playable and I would prefer them over keyboards of many cheap acoustic pianos.

Kawai's GF action is probably most controversial. I personally like it. It's sensitive, smooth and it has real wooden feel, I feel a kind of physical tactile pleasure when playing it. Although it's on the heavy side. And I also know pianists who dislike it greatly, calling it 'cotton wool keybed' or 'swampy keys'.

In my mind Roland PHA has the lightest action, it's easiest to play, it's very sensitive, perfect for professional work, but it has a plastic feel that I just can't stand at home.

Yamaha's NW action has a nice feel, but it's imo heaviest and I would say bulkiest of all, I don't find it controllable enough for me (although I never played CLP-x85 with counterweights, it may be different).

It could be worth discussing inexpensive Casio-Bechstein hybrid action, too, but their sound samples are... well, you know.

peterws #2763002 09/03/18 06:35 AM
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The
Originally Posted by peterws
(...) I'm not really convinced that wooden keys, or part wooden keys as on the Roland and maybe the Yamaha, feel different because of the material used. A different load distribution with plastic keys would maybe achieve the same result.

This is an interesting question. The keys made of plastic or plastic + a layer of wood keys are hollow. The wooden keys are solid sticks of wood. One can indeed reproduce the exact same physical forces regardless of the material used. However, I am yet to find a DPs with plastic keys that feels and sounds "solid", which is a feeling you always get on an acoustic piano, regardless of the quality of its action. For example, I find the Roland PHA-50 action superior to the Casio GP action in terms of being closer to an acoustic action, but the Casio GP feels "solid" while the Roland cannot hide it is an hollow plastic action. Several other variables, like the cabinet, felts and other damping materials contribute to the overall feeling, but I wonder what is the role of the material used for the keys.

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Originally Posted by arc7urus
The
Originally Posted by peterws
(...) I'm not really convinced that wooden keys, or part wooden keys as on the Roland and maybe the Yamaha, feel different because of the material used. A different load distribution with plastic keys would maybe achieve the same result.

This is an interesting question. The keys made of plastic or plastic + a layer of wood keys are hollow. The wooden keys are solid sticks of wood. One can indeed reproduce the exact same physical forces regardless of the material used. However, I am yet to find a DPs with plastic keys that feels and sounds "solid", which is a feeling you always get on an acoustic piano, regardless of the quality of its action. For example, I find the Roland PHA-50 action superior to the Casio GP action in terms of being closer to an acoustic action, but the Casio GP feels "solid" while the Roland cannot hide it is an hollow plastic action. Several other variables, like the cabinet, felts and other damping materials contribute to the overall feeling, but I wonder what is the role of the material used for the keys.


That's interesting.
I guess the main downside to solid wood is that it will eventually expand due to moisture and warp. Perhaps they could create a composite key material that would feel as solid as wood but not have the downside.
Certainly I think the only reason Roland add the wood panel is to create a visual look.


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kinya88 #2763062 09/03/18 10:19 AM
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Well, I'm still trying to find a better choice than Ivory "G" or whatever it is now, on my FP50. I do like that action, and whilst a few measure up, are they THAT much better?
More importantly, would my playing improve?

Pigs might fly . . . . .


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peterws #2763570 09/05/18 01:45 PM
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is long keys in digitals, to give a realistic feel , somewhat of a gimmiick?


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kinya88 #2763575 09/05/18 01:53 PM
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Not a gimmick. The one thing that a digital shares with an acoustic is the keyboard action. It has to feel good. Long keys give better control. It's just simple mechanics.

kinya88 #2763581 09/05/18 02:26 PM
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i still feel it is a gimmick, since pha50 feels just as good but it is not long as grand feel of kawai


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kinya88 #2763585 09/05/18 03:08 PM
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Longer keys make action lighter. It especially concerns black keys. A too big difference in required force between black and white keys is what makes some keyboards with short keys feel so difficult to control. That's the point.

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i think to some extent, but beyond it , is just a gimmick, if it was really true, why not get keys that are 6 feet long..lol


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kinya88 #2763589 09/05/18 03:26 PM
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Six feet long? Not needed.

Don't fall prey to the notion that more is better.
If quantity X is best, then more than X is worse. And less than X is worse.
The optimum is somewhere in the middle. More is NOT better.

kinya88 #2763600 09/05/18 05:06 PM
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Longer keys mean the pivot point is further back, so it's easier to play the keys near the fallboard. It's simple physics by archimedes. wink


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Tyr #2763609 09/05/18 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyr
Longer keys mean the pivot point is further back, so it's easier to play the keys near the fallboard. It's simple physics by archimedes. wink


Longer keys mean fatter keys. Means heavier keys, or loads of inertia. Add to that the weight of hammer operation, etc; no wonder they're looking towards carbon fibre.
No thanks! Life's complex enough!


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peterws #2763619 09/05/18 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
Longer keys mean fatter keys.


Can you clarify what you mean Peter?

When Kawai extended the length of the keys in acoustic and digital pianos, the thickness and height didn't change, just the length.

Kind regards,
James
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kinya88 #2763626 09/05/18 08:14 PM
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KJ: You have to regard peter's posts as half-meaningful, and half-jest. The "fatter keys" comment must surely fall in the latter half.

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by peterws
Longer keys mean fatter keys.


Can you clarify what you mean Peter?

When Kawai extended the length of the keys in acoustic and digital pianos, the thickness and height didn't change, just the length.

Kind regards,
James
x


If the length increases, the depth (height) must also in order to retain rigidity. On a grand piano, this is often, impressively, the case.


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'Taller' would perhaps be a better description smile

Though yes, on 3m concerts the keybed often seems to have a double layer of key buttons around the pivot to strengthen it, key flex can be an issue at that length. Surprised no one's tried novel materials on those yet actually.

Originally Posted by Jitin
i still feel it is a gimmick, since pha50 feels just as good but it is not long as grand feel of kawai


I think this depends on preference but yes, certainly there are diminishing returns. Personally I find pha-50 to be good enough, but keybeds like rm3/(n)U1 bug me and I find GHS to be horrible.

peterws #2763703 09/06/18 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Tyr
Longer keys mean the pivot point is further back, so it's easier to play the keys near the fallboard. It's simple physics by archimedes. wink


Longer keys mean fatter keys. Means heavier keys, or loads of inertia. Add to that the weight of hammer operation, etc; no wonder they're looking towards carbon fibre.
No thanks! Life's complex enough!


Not sure why piano makers still use wood.
Badminton, Tennis and Squash rackets were all wood and are now all carbon fibre composite.

Here is the future maybe ??
Carbon fibre piano

Last edited by Doug M.; 09/06/18 07:59 AM.

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