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In Minor keys the dominant is frequently changed to a major. That's why we have a Harmonic Minor scale with a sharped seventh - to make the dominant a major chord. Minor chords don't dominate the key quite the same way.

I think it would be better to discuss fingering where there's an issue rather than rely on 'Jane'. That way different players can choose alternatives to suit their own playing but still understand the reasons for those differences and the thoughts that might go into making a choice.

I really love this Nocturne, and am grateful it is posted here. Many years away for me, but I love learning from all of your thoughts.

Okay, one quick fingering issue I found funny. It was an a-ha moment.

I'm in the skipping around, exploring stage, and decided to try the very last arpeggio (M64), which starts with G#, then C#, then goes to E#, G#, C#, E#, G#. After the initial G#, I began with the 1 on the C#. This is the Picardy Third, the C# major rather than minor, on which the piece ends. It was a little awkward.

I began to ponder whether I've played this arpeggio before, as I've studied my major and minor arpeggios already, then finally realized, duh, it's the same as a Db arpeggio (Db-F-Ab is equivalent to C#-E#-G#), which I've practiced hundreds of times. I then changed my fingering to begin with the 2 on the G#, 4 on the C#, 1 on the E#, and I no longer have to learn it!



Structure -

Intro
First section seems to go from M5 to M20.
Second section goes from M21 to M46.
Third section from M46 to M57.
Final, closing section , from M58 to M65.

Would you say that's a fair assessment?



I'm going to collect and accumulate bullet points as we learn:

- Different versions have slightly different measure numbers, depending on whether the intro is counted as 2 measures or 4 (my version has a 2 measure intro that repeats, for a total of 4 measures). My manuscript, Schirmer's, has a total of 65 measures.

- There are two well utilized version, according to Henle - the original manuscript that lacks a R hand section in M35-44, and a second version that Chopin's sister, Ludwika Jedrzejewicz, published that includes some notes in these measures.

- Intro - C#min, C#min7, F#min, C#min, A, G#. (i-i7-iv-i-VI-V).
- The VI is an Augmented 6th, which often resolves to the V. In this case, it's a German Augmented 6th.
- The final chord, G#, is Dominant.

- Picardy Third - the final chord is in C# Maj arpeggio (can be fingered as if it were Db).

- Learning resources:
- Jane's tutorial for fingering
- Piano Career Academy tutorial by Ilinca Vartic
- Paul Barton's tutorial
- Melanie Spanswick essay on the piece

I agree with your breakdown, Craig, but list mine as:

M1 - 4: Intro
M5 - 12: A
M13 - 20: A'
M21 - 46: B
M46 - 58: A'' with 4 bar extension
M58 - 65: Coda

I played gently through the score and have broken it down into study units.

I was going to start by treating the runs in the coda as individual units but after a brief look I found there was no need. They're all G# Phrygian runs ending on tonic so it's just a question of sorting out where the top note goes then feeling my way down which turned out to be quite easy so I'll leave the coda until later, either before or after the B section.

I think I'll start with the three runs needing timing work, M14b - 16a, M48b - 50a and M52b - 54a, adding an extra bar to each as the runs smooth out (I'm dividing the bars into half bars, a and b, for sectional work so I have good overlap between sections). The first two runs are an A harmonic minor descent. I found the start awkward because I want to play another E at the top. I hope a night's sleep and virtual practise (away from the piano) will fix that. I'm not sure whether to follow the timing as written or just aim at the closing A and go by feel like the coda runs. The ascending run is more chromatic but still easy to remember.

I'm planning on looking at the three A sections before looking at the B section. I don't yet know whether I want to take the first four bars of each one as a unit and the second four as another but the intro and M5-8 were both memorised very quickly so M1 - 12 looks like a single unit with M13-20 and M47-58 done later or I could look at M5-8, M13-16 and M47-50 as one unit and M8-12 and M50-54 as another with M17-20 left over. This may change after a week of reading through it and memorising the sound of it.

The B section looks like two units, M21-28 and M29-46.

Richard, I like you're breakdown of the sections, it's a little more detailed than mine, and the use of the three separate A sections makes sense. Quick disclaimer, as I don't have nearly as much experience as you, Richard, I'm afraid it will probably take me longer to learn the piece, but I think we're off to a great start.

I agree that the runs are a little less daunting after trying them out. In fact the run in M15 may prove trickier. Regardless, I've started on the final runs, because they're fun (gotta have fun), and because I figure starting from the end has been another strategy recommended by some. One thing I did was spend a few minutes mapping out where I was going to drop the L hand notes in relation to the runs. Next I'm going to practice each run with the L hand notes sprinkled in there slowly and gradually build up some speed.

Specifically, the L hand notes C#, F#, D#, C# will fall on approximately:
M58 - D#, B, A, D#
M59 - A, B, D#, B
M60 - A, D#, F#, D#
M61 - A, D#, G#, D#

I suspect as I get it down, and develop a little rubato, crecendo, decrescendo in there this may change a little, but it will at least get me started on these runs.

By the way, what in the world is that chord? C# F# D#? Can we add the initial A, to make it a D#min7b5? F#m6?






Some more links for you're viewing pleasure....the last one's the real gem!
- Jan Lisiecki
- Paul Barton
- Tiffany Poon
- Wladyslaw Szpilman

As you suggested in your first post, time is not an issue here as much as the study itself and, perhaps, the practical application of some unfamiliar learning strategies.

I wouldn't be in a hurry to drop the LH notes in at set places. Practise the runs without accents and alternate between playing the runs alone, in situ, and with LH alone. Eventually the runs will develop an accent at the top note and you may be able to feel when to put the hands together and just get them right. This isn't a regular polyrhythmic problem so making divisions by design may result in a mechanical sound later or may create artifical accents in the runs.

As you get used to listening to Chopin's fioriture you'll feel more comfortable with the idea of just letting them develop.

The C#, F# and D# clearly don't make a normal triad. I wouldn't be keen on naming it either. The D# sounds like a suspension or an appoggiatura and as we're in common time here may be two separate pairs of notes. The G# and E of the C# Major both fall by a tone in the second group making the fall to C# a melodic device rather than a harmonic one.

I just read an interesting, in depth analysis of the piece here.. I wonder if this was the work of a graduate student. I don't want to rely on it completely for my own studies but there are some interesting thoughts, including that the Forward actually restates (or really prestates) the theme of the entire piece. Another thought is that measures 32-46 represent a Transitional Section, so I thought to update that breakdown here.

The other thing that I noticed is that questionable chord / or random notes in M57 (C#, D#, F#) are actually the similar to the second half of M5, and may represent a D#min7, or the supertonic, which resolves repeatedly to the tonic throughout the piece.

In M5, The D#, C#, A are in the L, with the F# in the R, whereas later, the D#, C#, F# are in the L, with the A in the R (the beginning and ending of all 4 runs except the first, which begins on D# and ends in A).



M1 - 4: Intro
M5 - 12: A
M13 - 20: A'
M21 - 31: B
M32 - 46: Transitional Section
M46 - 58: A'' with 4 bar extension
M58 - 65: Coda

Last night I worked on the Intro, the Coda and A1 sections with some success. I actually think I'll be able to handle this piece. Of course I haven't attacked the tougher sections, but it's only been a few days. I think I'll consolidate these sections before moving forward too quickly. That's M1-12, and M58-65. I need to make firm decisions on fingering now before going too much further. For instance, on the C#min, I'm using 5-3-1-2, but later I'm moving my hand, for instance on the C#Maj7 of M7, I'm lifting and using 5-5-1-3, as the E# is a less reliable reach otherwise.

We haven't yet really analyzed the chords of each measure but I've written them in for much of the piece.

This is interesting just to read as I cannot follow along with you right now. I definitely did not go this deep into the dissection and study of the piece itself before playing through it. I love the detail, though. And the Phrygian scale is new to me, so that's another thing I learned reading this forum. Thanks to both of you (and everyone else contributing) for the detailed posts.

Glad your you’re following along! I actually haven’t studied the modes yet either and somewhat glanced over Richards comment on the Phrygian scale but will have to come back to it when I have a minute also.

I wouldn't normally do a harmonic analysis of a ternary form piece until I get down to phrase level at the piano. In a sonata the key changes define the drama and the contrasts, they're part of the structure, but not in ternary form.

There's a key change for the B section - and back again for the reprise - but there are no key changes in the A section so the harmony of the cadences is where most of the interest lies for me. I know I'm in C# Minor and I expect most of the harmony to reinforce that without having to name all the chords but since you've already done yours I've looked briefly at the harmony.

The second chord, unusually in M5, drops the F# from the ii chord, D#m7b5, where most other instances - including M13 - it's the A that's dropped. It's not unlike Chopin to make changes that don't make sense - harmonically - in his pieces and I wouldn't fuss at all if anyone played an F# for the A in M5. Leaving out the third, albeit still present in the melody, doesn't leave us in suspense as to the minor quality (because of the b5) but leaving out the fifth does give an emptiness, beautifully filled in the coda with the change to major for the last breath.

When reading through this I felt that the notes made sense for the key so I looked no further. I don't think naming all the chords is going to help me memorise this piece. I think the hardest part to remember will be the end of the B section, the transition, as you have it, especially without the RH notes as a guide for when to drop to A# instead of C#.

I'm finding much more interest in seeing where the similar passages differ and this will help me most of all to memorise the piece in its entirety.

I've played through this piece about half a dozen times. I don't really see much difficulty outside the coordination issues. I've followed the score listening to Arrau (beautiful rubato), Pires, et al but I'm finding my own way now reading through it on its own at my desk here at work.

I'm still on the descending passages, M15 and M49, at the piano and expect to start on M53 before the week's out and maybe M11. I'm expecting to start the learning proper next week.

I have tried learning this piece, years ago and sort of gave up when I got to the more difficult sections..but this thread seems like a challenge I cant pass up!

In the Alfred Cortot edition of this Lento, the end of M11 includes a G# quarter underneath the last two eighths, B# and A#. I tried a lot fingering combinations that included bringing the pinky to the D# but eventually settled on Cortot's own solution of using the thumb on both the last two eighths and bringing out the third voice. One of the deciding factors was maintaining the lateral movement of the LH which is fundamental, I think, to mastery of this piece (and several of his other Nocturnes) and may prove a good study for this very skill.

Before you settle on the hand move I'd go back to your teacher to discuss the benefits of this lateral freedom and why - and how - you might practise it.

Btw, I found that I had two versions of the score...the one I was using was not the Schirmers, but I've now switched. I'm not sure where the other was from. The Schirmers combines those two measures (the 2/4 and 3/4) into one measure (5/4). There are a few other subtle differences, including the inclusion of those melody / R hand notes in the transition section. I think I'll use this one. Total will be 64 measures. [One less measure to learn ;)]

I had a lesson just yesterday, but unfortunately didn't bring this point up. Will have to wait. .

On Measure 11, Schirmer's has the G# quarter also (my prior version did not). I just tried it last night, and played the G# B# with 3-1 and then the A# with 2. It seems to flow nicely for me.

I think it is better to get the fingering suggestions from a teacher.

Why dont you just ask your teacher for fingering suggestions ? The first week I took this Chopin to my teacher and we spend most of the first lesson doing work on the fingerings. If you learn yourself odd patterns you may create more work as you have to undo and unlearn. In any case, I would strongly advise you not to use Jane as a source. I'm not precisely sure what the use of her video is. The other video from Paul Barton was very interesting, thanks for this. It was particularly interesting in his video that part of this piece was another Chopin piece, thanks for sharing this !

Quick update - I've learned the intro, A and A', and the coda. Not up to speed yet but getting better. I'm a little afraid of the tempo of the transitional section. Not ready to try it though. I haven't decided whether to tackle the A'' or B section next, but I think for the rest of the week, I'll keep working on the sections I've learned to improve their fluidity before moving on.

I haven't analyzed the piece yet, so I don't know A to A' refer to what, but you didn't have any problem with the particular rhythms?

I've spent literally 30 minutes yesterday on bar 7 (this is the second half of it - I've recorded it for myself so I can listen back to it and better see what I did wrong). And then, there is bar 15...

This piece is so beautiful. All the work will pay it the end. But for now...

OK, didn't spot this thread until today, I love the idea of a study group. This is a bit over my ability level (this is a Henle level 5, I'm playing about level 3) but perhaps I'll start one for a piece closer to my level. Searching forum history, there are a lot of study groups but most are over 10 years in the past! Kudos for resurrecting the idea, I've not seen one on the forum since I've been active and it seems like a perfect application for this group!

I have come across a great study group for Autumn Leaves, but it was quite old. I like the idea also, it’s great to help each other out.

Jouishy, that’s a tough measure for sure! I spent a while on it, first working out the fingering, then playing it fluidly, then incorporating it with the the eighth notes in the L hand. I haven’t watched your whole video... did you get it? If not I can look and tell you precisely where I am placing each of the notes in relation to the two hands.

Jouishy, my background wouldn't permit me to change the counting in mid bar. You spent fifteen minutes on this without getting it right at the start. Count the crotchets/quarters, 1, 2, 3, 4 or count the eighths, 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +. Don't change from counting four to counting six.

Your metronome is going way too fast. Turn it off until you have the triplet in both hands. Once you get the rhythm it should sit better with you after a night's sleep so don't try to fix the whole bar in one fifteen minute session. Sort out the final triplet first as that's where you're main difficulty is.
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RH only from the B: di Dum di di Dum (ce n'etais pas chaud). Change finger (from 2 to 3) for the last two As so that M6 gets a stronger beat.

Add the two last LH Notes (E#, C#) with the triplet and LH: di DUM di-di di Dum (ce n'eta-is pas chaud).
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If you don't get it in two tries, go slower. When you get it a couple of times move on to something else and come back to it every ten minutes or so during your practise session. Repeat it every day until you don't need to repeat it every day.

When it's easy do the second half of M5 with the first half of M6 before adding the first half of M5.

Let me know how that goes.