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Steinway Hamburg vs New York
#2762940 09/02/18 11:29 PM
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So, I know there are a lot of comparisions between the two. I just want to know if the action in Hamburg are still made by Renner because I heard that Steinway is starting to sync their product as they put more and more New York parts in Hamburg Steinway.
Just want to know that what kind of difference still remains?


Thanks,

James

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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2762946 09/03/18 12:15 AM
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No, Hamburg Steinway still have Renner action, because it’s just simply better. They have some new case parts (design, not fabrication) from NY like legs, music stand, and lid prop. It breaks the classic elegance of Hamburg Steinway’s design that never changes since decades, to my eyes. New Hamburg Ds also have hard satin finish option on lid’s upper surface, like Yamaha CFX.

Last edited by trandinhnamanh; 09/03/18 12:19 AM.

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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763006 09/03/18 07:08 AM
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One difference that doesn't seem to be noted on here is the hinge on the fly lid is in a different place on the NY pianos from where it is on the Hamburg pianos. The fly lid hinge is closer to the keyboard on the NY pianos.

The reason that's important information is because I've seen a few New York pianos which have been rebuilt to look like Hamburg pianos, with the lyre and desk replaced, the inside veneered in mahogany, the fall replaced and the cheeks rounded (seems like a bit of an effort to go to in my opinion....), but the fly lid hinge is one thing they always miss.

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763042 09/03/18 09:16 AM
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They also have traditionally had different suppliers for many small parts like hinges, screws, wire, and raw materials like wood and felt.

I am not sure how much of that has been unified over the past decade, but I suspect not much of it.


Rich Galassini
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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763087 09/03/18 11:19 AM
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I had heard the same thing about the action parts becoming synced, but I think that applies more to a change to the NY pianos.


Ronen

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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763112 09/03/18 12:29 PM
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I know some here recoil in horror when I point it out but, Renner action parts have a problem with the center pins working out of the flanges after just a few years of use. They also get "mystery sluggushness" where the action center seizes after playing for an hour or two, then let it rest and it will work again. Much less of an issue with NY parts.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763121 09/03/18 01:05 PM
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For what it's worth, I'm one of the few European pianists who prefers the sound of a good NYC Steinway. And Ed, I know what you mean about that mysterious sluggishness. It's not just on Steinways, I've experienced it on a few makes.

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
Ed McMorrow, RPT #2763167 09/03/18 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I know some here recoil in horror when I point it out but, Renner action parts have a problem with the center pins working out of the flanges after just a few years of use. They also get "mystery sluggushness" where the action center seizes after playing for an hour or two, then let it rest and it will work again. Much less of an issue with NY parts.

Well, you know, there are many lines of product at Renner. It depends on which one the piano brand choses for their pianos. Hamburg Steinways have Renner parts since quite long time, without any problem, not like such things as teflon action of NY Steinways. And not only Hamburg Steinways, but Faziolis, Bösendorfers, C. Bechsteins... have Renner parts too. It must have a good reason for that!

Last edited by trandinhnamanh; 09/03/18 04:38 PM.

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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763174 09/03/18 04:51 PM
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Does anybody know whether Hamburg Steinway has always used Renner, or did they start after WWII with the Marshall Plan reconstruction? Renner was founded in 1882 in Stuttgart, and Hamburg Steinway opened in 1885, so it's theoretically possible they've always been Renner.


It looks like NY has always had their own action tooling, so it would take quite a substantial business reason to get them to switch.


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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763197 09/03/18 06:11 PM
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Quote
I know some here recoil in horror when I point it out but, Renner action parts have a problem with the center pins working out of the flanges after just a few years of use. They also get "mystery sluggushness" where the action center seizes after playing for an hour or two, then let it rest and it will work again. Much less of an issue with NY parts.


Perhaps time to adjust your work shop humidifier?

Norbert whome


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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
JohnSprung #2763209 09/03/18 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung

It looks like NY has always had their own action tooling, so it would take quite a substantial business reason to get them to switch.


Actually during the 1980's and early 1990's, NY Steinway was using Renner action parts in NY Bs and Ds because the NY parts were having issues.


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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
Norbert #2763225 09/03/18 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
Quote
I know some here recoil in horror when I point it out but, Renner action parts have a problem with the center pins working out of the flanges after just a few years of use. They also get "mystery sluggushness" where the action center seizes after playing for an hour or two, then let it rest and it will work again. Much less of an issue with NY parts.


Perhaps time to adjust your work shop humidifier?

Norbert whome


Or just move to Hamburg city
confused


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02X
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763246 09/03/18 10:29 PM
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Norbert,
The Renner parts with the problems are in customers homes.

Trandinhnamanh, Do you service pianos?


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
Ed McMorrow, RPT #2763250 09/03/18 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT

Trandinhnamanh, Do you service pianos?


Yes


Hamburg Steinway & Sons C-227
Yamaha Stagea Electone ELS-02X
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
trandinhnamanh #2763361 09/04/18 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by trandinhnamanh

Well, you know, there are many lines of product at Renner. It depends on which one the piano brand choses for their pianos. Hamburg Steinways have Renner parts since quite long time, without any problem, not like such things as teflon action of NY Steinways. And not only Hamburg Steinways, but Faziolis, Bösendorfers, C. Bechsteins... have Renner parts too. It must have a good reason for that!


Although I absolutely love the feel of Renner actions, regulated to the nines, in top-tier pianos, I've been told by chief technicians and execs at the manufacturer level at more than one "tier 1" company (and this has been corroborated by high-level rebuilders and independent techs) that part of the reason these pianos play so beautifully is the highest-cost manufacturers will take extra time to repin parts when necessary, verify everything's within acceptable tolerances, or even reject batches of parts (whatever the supplier) when specifications are suboptimal. Since you work on pianos, you know it's not as easy as just screwing on new parts and everything works well, out of the box. I just want to be sure our non-tech readers here understand that too...


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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
Joseph Fleetwood #2763366 09/04/18 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by joe80
One difference that doesn't seem to be noted on here is the hinge on the fly lid is in a different place on the NY pianos from where it is on the Hamburg pianos. The fly lid hinge is closer to the keyboard on the NY pianos.

The reason that's important information is because I've seen a few New York pianos which have been rebuilt to look like Hamburg pianos, with the lyre and desk replaced, the inside veneered in mahogany, the fall replaced and the cheeks rounded (seems like a bit of an effort to go to in my opinion....), but the fly lid hinge is one thing they always miss.


Hi Joe,

Do you mean that the depth of the fly lids are less on NY pianos than Hamburg pianos?


1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
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Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
Davdoc #2763368 09/04/18 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Davdoc
Originally Posted by joe80
One difference that doesn't seem to be noted on here is the hinge on the fly lid is in a different place on the NY pianos from where it is on the Hamburg pianos. The fly lid hinge is closer to the keyboard on the NY pianos.

The reason that's important information is because I've seen a few New York pianos which have been rebuilt to look like Hamburg pianos, with the lyre and desk replaced, the inside veneered in mahogany, the fall replaced and the cheeks rounded (seems like a bit of an effort to go to in my opinion....), but the fly lid hinge is one thing they always miss.


Hi Joe,

Do you mean that the depth of the fly lids are less on NY pianos than Hamburg pianos?

Originally Posted by Davdoc
Originally Posted by joe80
One difference that doesn't seem to be noted on here is the hinge on the fly lid is in a different place on the NY pianos from where it is on the Hamburg pianos. The fly lid hinge is closer to the keyboard on the NY pianos.

The reason that's important information is because I've seen a few New York pianos which have been rebuilt to look like Hamburg pianos, with the lyre and desk replaced, the inside veneered in mahogany, the fall replaced and the cheeks rounded (seems like a bit of an effort to go to in my opinion....), but the fly lid hinge is one thing they always miss.


Hi Joe,

Do you mean that the depth of the fly lids are less on NY pianos than Hamburg pianos?


Yes.... that is a more succinct way of putting it!

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763374 09/04/18 01:56 PM
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Heres what I think I know. The cases on the Ds are slightly different and not just the detail at the keyboard end. Compare the two its easy to see. The Hamburg D has a fall board lock and a knob to lock the lid down presumably for moving the piano. The pedal box is different. The newer Hamburg D's now use the same plate as the NY D's. It is my understanding that the soundboard crown is formed on the NY D with compression and the Hamburgs are crowned by rib forming. The NY lid is much lighter than the Hamburg lid so it has more ribs. The NY model uses action parts with computerized machining. I presume Hamburg still uses Renner parts but I was told they will use NY parts now that they can make them perfectly. The hammers are soft and need to be hardened on the NY model. The Renner hammers need softening. I have read that older Hamburg D's (like mine) used Abel hammers which I have and sound incredible. The music desks are different. I have heard said that the Hamburg rims are thicker and use some different woods than NY in their "book". I don't know I never measured them and I can't tell if it is different wood. The wood in the yard before the build begins is dried to a different moisture content allowing for their respective climates. Most important of all the sound is a little different generally speaking my guess is that its mostly due to the different hammers. I think they both use Mapes strings now. Now there is polyester on the NY pianos where older ones are lacquer. This is about al I can think of right now. To sum it up they are the same design but built somewhat differently.

Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763427 09/04/18 04:50 PM
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The music desks on newer New York Steinways have changed to be like those on Hamburg, although some details may be different.


Semipro Tech
Re: Steinway Hamburg vs New York
James Guo #2763482 09/04/18 09:01 PM
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Bdb - NYdid change their music desk but it is not the same as the Hamburg.

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