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It's been a while since I've seen a study group on the forum. I'm wondering if anyone would like to join me in learning this piece. Jouishy and I have spoken (alright typed) about tackling this one at the end of the summer, and that time is rapidly approaching.
I'd like to learn this piece, but really learn it well. By that, I mean enter into a technical analysis of the piece, study the chord changes and progressions, the timing, and dynamics, and any other aspects that arise. Learn it inside out. I believe this piece would make for a good opportunity to engage in such a practice, given it's stature among the classic repertoire and that it is (somewhat) accessible to an intermediate student. That's not to say it won't be a challenge, but I believe it will be a challenge that can be reasonably accepted. Upon completion, I hope to add it to my repertoire, and hope to become a better pianist for it.
This project can move along at any pace, I'm in no rush....if it takes months, so be it. Anyone interested, join in. Anyone who knows it well and would like to contribute, please do so! So please, if you will, join us in learning and analyzing this piece!
I found the video linked below quite useful. Interesting, this Nocturne was composed by Chopin to teach his sister how to play his second concerto. The video contains the two references that are cross-overs between the two pieces
Just a warning, it is a challenging piece. I would not say it was particularly accessible for an intermediate player. I found it much harder than it looks. Learning the notes I found relatively easy, perhaps I have more experience, but for some reason I found it very hard to get further from there. I could not make it sound good. I came back to it a couple of times but still not too happy with the result although it is nearly there. Would be interested to polish it and learning a bit about the music and sharing some tips. A study group would be an excellent idea.
Great, Dogperson, thanks for the link, I'll check it out when I get a minute.
Moo, thanks for the input....did you find it harder than the Liszt piece (Consolation in Db for those that may not know we both worked on that one). It seems similar, although the L hand line does look tougher and I'm in truth worried about that wicked fast run towards the end (M59). Either way should be educational at the very least! And we can grow into it over time.
I did find it harder than. Consolation 3. That piece only really had one main challenge, playing semiquavers with triplets. Once you can do this it becomes assessable as there is a repeating pattern and it is quite easy to get into this.
I did not find them particularly similar pieces to be honest. Chopin nocturens in one sense I think may be easier to play the notes compared to consolidation 3 since not everyone is able to play the 4 against 3 pattern successfully but to get it to sound good certainly the Chopin nocturne is a lot harder. There is a lot of challenges. A good performance and a bad performance (of which youtube has more bad than good!) is very noticeable in this piece. The end I think is nothing to be particularly scared about. It is just E major scale and you can split it up, again notes is not the main problem in my opinion.
I played this piece for my spring recital just over a year ago. I’ll second Moo’s comments - it’s a bit more difficult than it seems. I had not quite been playing for two years when I started to learn it, though, so some of the difficulty for me might have just been inexperience. It could be a lot easier for you. I remember having trouble with the A major section and definitely with the left hand triplets. I just didn’t have the coordination in my LH when I started to pull it off, though I got it pretty close for performance. Those were the rockiest pieces. The runs at the end aren’t to be feared. It’s just the c-sharp minor scale (or e major if you prefer) and it doesn’t have to be Arrau-level fast to sound good.
One thing for me about this nocturne - I fell out of love with it while I was learning it. I was a little surprised by that. I still noodle on it occasionally and it is lovely to hear but it doesn’t affect me to play it like some other nocturnes do. I couldn’t live without playing op 9 no 1 and 2 occasionally but the e-minor and this one just sort of.... I don’t know. Their hold on me lessened once I had learned and performed them. In a way, I sense why Chopin did not care for these as much. They lack something (for me) that his more polished and published nocturnes do not. And I have not played all of the published ones either so some of those might not work for me.
Anyway, don’t let that dissuade you. It’s a great composition for learning and I’m certainly better in my left hand for going through it. I’ll offer any advice that I can for your journey but I’m most likely not a great resource. Happy learning!
Moo, you're right, I tried the scales at the end, and they are playable. It'll take some work to get them right, and I'll put down my thoughts on this in a few moments. I'm glad you're interest is re-peaked!
Jandz, I agree it may be more difficult than it looks, but beginning this with less than 2 years experience is quite a challenge. I'm glad it improved your left hand skills - that's the great thing - I find that every piece adds something to my toolbox. Sorry to hear you came away less enthralled with it than before you started it.
Regarding the scales at the end, there are 4 runs, in C-sharp minor, or as jandz pointed out, the relative minor to the E major scale. I plan on drilling this using the E major scale fingering. I noted that it starts on Db in M58, so I'm using finger 4 as I would in a E major scale on the Db. The next few runs start on A, so I'm using finger 1 (thumb) on the A. Then you just need to figure out where the run ends - the first on D#, then on D# an octave higher, then on F#, then on G#. I'm planning on learning the runs well before adding in the left hand line. I'll work on the skills mentioned in another timely thread(see dogperson's list halfway down the first page), those of slow practice and of practice variation (eg legato vs staccato, slow speed, etc) to drill them in well.
My next step will be to analyze the opening chord progression.
I'll plan on keeping a running tab of bullet points that I'll create as I go. Thoughts / suggestions welcome!
I thought I'd add a few more details in light of cmb13's reply.
Slightly OT: I did start on this one pretty early but that's how my teacher likes to do things. She's not pushing me faster than I can move - we make all of these decisions together - but she's a strong proponent of learning through music instead of exercises. Especially for adult students. So I started the e-minor nocturne at like 7 or 8 months in and this one about a year later (with several other pieces in-between). That isn't to say I brought them up to a high performance standard at all but I got the lessons she wanted out of it. 3 against 4, romantic rhythms, left hand accuracy, that kind of stuff.
I don't talk about it that much because these forums are strongly opposed to this kind of teaching it seems and I can't really comment one way or another on its efficacy for other adult learners. I think it needs a strong teacher and student combo so in that sense I'm pretty lucky to be where I am. It works for me and I'm playing music I could never have imagined playing otherwise. /EndOT
Back to the music. I can offer a couple of points for you to look at and think about as you read the score and practice the scales at the end.
* Note the staccato notes in the scales. The whole passage is in pedal but play those notes staccato anyway. Chopin does this a lot and it definitely makes for a different color in the music itself. * Some performers speed up the ascent of the scale and slow the descent, others don't. On the final two, I believe I started slower and sped up for example.
Another fun fact: There are two versions of this nocturne. See here: Nocturne C-Sharp Minor, Henle Edition. The description details both of them and their origins. If you click the "Look Inside" link you can see the music for both. Within these two versions there seem to be quite a few differences in interpretation. The second one in the Henle book here has different time signatures for the right and left in one section, for example. The version I played is closer to the first one, though I used a different book and not the Henle one when I was studying it.
As for losing some of the love I had for it, that only really relates to playing it. I still love listening to it. I don't know how else to describe it. My impression of this one and the e-minor nocturne were similar in that regard. I certainly wouldn't change anything about my experiences in learning it, though, and will probably pick it up again one day. I'm on a different musical mission right now so it'll have to wait for a while. Anyway, I hope you come out on the other side of this greatly improved for the experience of learning it. Enjoy!
Moo, that's pretty good - you did that after not touching it for 6 months? Sounds like you've got all the notes, now just need to smooth them. My teacher, when I did the Liszt piece, tried to have me keep the keys almost partially depressed on the L hand, so as to just let them play softly with an almost ethereal sound. I wonder if that would work well on this piece also, to soften the L and make the melody pop out even more. I'd say you're really close here, it'll take me some serious practice to get to this point!
jandz, thanks for the insights. I heard there were a few versions out there, mine is from Schirmer's (not sure which this corresponds to). I think we'll have to take liberties with the scales at the end to make them more dynamic, but first will try to learn them evenly. It sounds like you have a good teacher; nice to learn via repertiore.
I learnt it quite a long time ago, I think probably over a year to 18 months. I dont really play Chopin to be honest. I played another Chopin nocturne recently which again I did not polish but I think it helped. Similar problems with knowing the notes but not being able to get it sound smooth and polished. I am also learning Rachmaninoff Elergie which is I think helps because it has a similar feel.
How fun.. I always loved this piece, and my new Henle Nocturne book came in a week ago. Not a big fan of the triplets or the constantly changing key signatures.. but doesn't hurt to try right?
I am also currently learning this piece. I feel to play measure 56 and 57 all the right hand running notes to be very difficult. At a slower tempo I am ok, but I cannot get it fast. Also I feel like to memorize this piece is somewhat difficult too. I am trying to memorize it section by section as my teacher suggested.
In Progress: 1.Debussy Arabasque1 2. Czerny 740 no 3 3. Mozart Sonata K330 1st Movement 4. Bach Prelude and Fugue in C Major
I learned this piece for my grade 7 ABRSM exam last year. It was actually the second time I learned it. It is such a beautiful piece, that I think a lot of people underestimate its challenges. The first time I learned it, I really did not do it justice. The second time was better, but there is still a lot of room for improvement. I want to revisit the piece to refresh it. I will be following this thread with interest.
Here is my version just before the exam last year:
My teacher, when I did the Liszt piece, tried to have me keep the keys almost partially depressed on the L hand, so as to just let them play softly with an almost ethereal sound.
Maybe I'm missunderstanding what your teacher meant but that doesn't seem like sound advice. The loudness comes from how fast the key goes down not how hard you hold it down. I just read a book by Joseph Lhevinne where he admonishes against partial key presses and advocates going down all the way to the keybed even in the most delicate passages.